What have we come to

flazio

Thing is, the people have done their bit and put FF and SF on level pegging (taking the Ceann Comhairle out of the equation). They now have to turn to the other parties for support. Now, if you were a centre left party like SD and Labour, you can now justify talking to FF and not SF because you don't talk to open supporters of terrorist organisations. The shouting of Up the ra, has weakened SF negotiating power IMO.

nigeldaniel

Just a musing for today after hearing some local SF band-wagoners at the shop this morning 'Over privileged 20ts somethings looking for excitement and a rush' that will explain the votes.

Snickers Man

GDK_11 wrote: »

Quite possibly but the issue is only going to become bigger now. SF will know that this may well turn out to be their biggest opportunity to get this done.

I sense a poll coming on

Idbatterim

nigeldaniel wrote: »

Just a musing for today after hearing some local SF band-wagoners at the shop this morning 'Over privileged 20ts somethings looking for excitement and a rush' that will explain the votes.

Was that coming from the older generation that got their property for a pittance ? The ones claiming they are poor and can’t afford a tiny increase in the lpt? But the young in Dublin can pay sixty percent of income in some cases on rent ? Was it one of those liars ?

gormdubhgorm

KWAG2019 wrote: »

If you believe that political statements have an absolute and irrevocable status I applaud your world class naïveté. If you accept moral posturing by politicians at face value rather than understand them for the smoke screen for political self interest you are a world champion in innocence.

It is not naive MM is steadfast in his views and the only way it seems he would go in bed with SF is in a body bag. So for FF to join with SF - MM would have to resign.
The smoke screen of political self interest - that is interesting considering SF have tried to distant themselves of thier record in NI.

SF have actually widened the gap between rich and poor in NI

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2020/02/10/celebrating-sinn-fein-election-surge-consider-their-pro-austerity-record-north

FG did nothing to get this country back on track. They followed Lenihan plan and the directions of the IMF and the EU to stabilize the public finances after those were broken by casino capitalists and the nationalization of private capitalist debt. The fact that you think the country is on track says it all about your inability to see we have a failed society.

Rubbish any fairminded person would see they were instrumental in sorting out Brexit. Near full employment following the most turbulent time in Irish history since the civil war.
What did SF do during Brexit?
Worse still thier Brexit spokesman was David 'up the ra' Cullinane.


SF sat on thier hands. I know you are going to say that the ROI electorate (new SF voters) do not care about Brexit. But that only shows how they do not care about NI. Which is convient for SF as thier policies and results on health. housing and homelessness in NI are not srcutinised.

Health NI:

https://www.rte.ie/news/ulster/2019/1204/1097090-northern-ireland-health/

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:RVTQ7CyHeagJ:https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/thousands-of-nurses-in-northern-ireland-strike-over-pay-1.4133733+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

Housing NI:

https://thedetail.tv/articles/social-housing-bb946a8a-43df-450d-b8cd-66d71030cdf3

Homelessness NI:

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/more-quarter-recent-uk-homeless-21114251

Social Welfare NI:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3Kdvi9pOC4gJ:https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/sinn-f%25C3%25A9in-under-fire-over-welfare-cuts-move-1.2435441+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie


No governance in Stormont for over three years


Worse still SF sat on thier hands for three years playing games with the DUP in Stormont.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jan/10/pressure-mounts-northern-irish-parties-restore-power-sharing-sinn-fein-dup

FFG carry the can for crashing the economy and the failure to restore a functioning society after it.
Landlords are parasites. They need strict regulation and enforcement. Berlin has a 5 year rent freeze. Let’s have one. And if the Constitution needs changing think of how big the margin in favour would be.

Again, conflating FG and FF perpetuating the SF myth. Hyperbole about landlords. Somehow there are no decent landlords in your view nothing hyperbolic about this at all. :rolleyes:

Two thirds of all landlords only own one property for instance, but that does not suit your narrative.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/the-rent-report/the-accidental-landlords-most-own-just-one-property-31304758.html

nkl12xtw5goz70

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It is not naive MM is steadfast in his views and the only way it seems he would go in bed with SF is in a body bag.

It's not even just his views. He sees now that FF got hammered for propping up FG. Martin knows that they will suffer even more if they prop up SF politicians chanting "Up the Ra" and looking to tax everything that moves.

SF targets young and working-class voters who believe they have nothing to lose by electing Syriza's fanbase to Dail Eireann. FF's base is older, wealthier, and will suffer more from the chaos.

I see sheep

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Rubbish any fairminded person would see they were instrumental in sorting out Brexit.

'Sorting out Brexit', what are you on about?

KWAG2019

I see sheep wrote: »

'Sorting out Brexit', what are you on about?

I’m afraid that says it all about it

gormdubhgorm

I see sheep wrote: »

'Sorting out Brexit', what are you on about?

You must have missed the news

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/10/boris-johnson-and-leo-varadkar-say-they-see-pathway-to-brexit-deal

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/oct/10/brexit-latest-news-boris-johnson-varadkar-corbyn-no-deal-would-put-lives-at-risk-says-former-chief-medical-officer-live-news

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:kvnE6zanuhQJ:https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/brexit-how-the-deal-was-done-and-why-the-varadkar-meeting-was-a-turning-point-1.4054437+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

It is interesting in this time period SF were not in Stormont, still refused to go into Westminister, and merely were a spectator in the dail.

gormdubhgorm

KWAG2019 wrote: »

I’m afraid that says it all about it

Does it? Pray tell, oh wise one!

Plus I hope you read the articles I linked about NI the homlessness, health issues and the social welfare cuts SF let happen in NI.

jmayo

micks_address wrote: »

Well here's the thing... The government can change feic all. A la Trump in America...with all his shouting what major changes have come into effect? The reality is there's a certain amount of money, it's pretty much all pre committed to health etc.. I think it's maybe one of the frustrations a new government will find. It's really hard to change things quickly. The bigger worry I'd have is how it spins in the US. Most US companies are here for various tax breaks..if they go so more taxes can be raised to increase the rate if change we'd be back to 2008 levels of unemployment pretty quickly. People talk a lot about government being pro business. Reality is when business does well people do well through increased employment, higher tax return which can fund health etc.. it's a pretty vicious circle.

Do you have any fecking clue about what effect Trumps time in power has had.
On of the primary reasons the evangelicals dismissed his Jewish connections and especially his philandering pu**y grabbing ways was simply to get someone that would stack the supreme court with right wingers and probably revoke abortion laws.
Trump has put back climate change moves and EPA powers by decades.
One quick decision ended chance of Kurdish freedom and consigned yet more people to death and real homelessness.

Yurt! wrote: »

Are you one of Leo's early risers or are you coming back from an all night bender?

You are typical shinner, quick with the old one liners and dismissive posts.
I still haven't found you answer my question as to the solution to our housing shortages.

GDK_11 wrote: »

Quite possibly but the issue is only going to become bigger now. SF will know that this may well turn out to be their biggest opportunity to get this done.

No way in hell will they get people in Republic to vote for United Ireland when they hear the cost.

Pat Kenny had DUP politican on this morning and he made one huge valid wake up call to anyone that dreams of a united ireland.
To fund the pensioners in the North it would take 3 billion a year.

gormdubhgorm

micks_address wrote: »

Sinn Fein plus everyone else makes 87?

Maybe without labour 81 with confidence and supply support from labour?

How likely are the independents to sign up?

Howlin has already said he will not do any kind of arrangement with SF in government. But that does not mean he would rule out confidence and supply I suppose?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/brendan-howlin-toes-party-line-on-sinn-fein-arrangement-979369.html

It depends on the independents moral compass. Also it depends on what the independents would be promised. Tony Gregory supported Haughey once upon a time in 1982 because he viewed him as he lesser of two evils.

jmayo

Idbatterim wrote: »

Was that coming from the older generation thaot their property for a pittance ? The ones claiming they are poor and can’t afford a tiny increase in the lpt? But the young in Dublin can pay sixty percent of income in some cases on rent ? Was it one of those liars ?

I am fooking sick and tired of hearing this shytology coming from younger voters.
Where were all these cheap houses years ago?

The only window for more affordable housing came in mid 90s to 2001 when economy was growing, interest rates and income taxes were dropping.
Coincidentally that was when house prices started increasing dramatically.

Go back further and you found high interest rates and high taxes.
A lot of the current retirees that people like you are probably bitching about were the ones that bought in 80s when the state often took nearly 70p out of every pound earned.
At the same time mortgage interest rates were in mid teens.

You have fookers bitching about our high interest rates today well you have no fooking idea.

Oh and when people did buy they didn't fully furnish their homes on day one, they didn't still go on foreign holidays, they didn't trade in their car the next year.
Hell that fooking generation couldn't afford to go to Britain bar on the boat.

So stop with this shyte that anyone over 60 got a cheap house.

I see sheep

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You must have missed the news

Brexit isn't 'sorted out'.

In those articles LV is meeting another European leader like every other European leader does.

The fact that he's chummy with that sack of **** Johnson doesn't exactly endear me to him to be honest :rolleyes:

FG aspired to be like the Tories but thankfully Irish people aren't duped as easily as the Brits (or at least thankfully this time, finally!)

jam_mac_jam

jmayo wrote: »

I am fooking sick and tired of hearing this shytology coming from younger voters.
Where were all these cheap houses years ago?

The only window for more affordable housing came in mid 90s to 2001 when economy was growing, interest rates and income taxes were dropping.
Coincidentally that was when house prices started increasing dramatically.

Go back further and you found high interest rates and high taxes.
A lot of the current retirees that people like you are probably bitching about were the ones that bought in 80s when the state often took nearly 70p out of every pound earned.
At the same time mortgage interest rates were in mid teens.

You have fookers bitching about our high interest rates today well you have no fooking idea.

Oh and when people did buy they didn't fully furnish their homes on day one, they didn't still go on foreign holidays, they didn't trade in their car the next year.
Hell that fooking generation couldn't afford to go to Britain bar on the boat.

So stop with this shyte that anyone over 60 got a cheap house.

Amazing they could all buy them then. On one wage. In good areas. Must be much harder workers.

I see sheep

jmayo wrote: »

Oh and when people did buy they didn't fully furnish their homes on day one, they didn't still go on foreign holidays, they didn't trade in their car the next year.
Hell that fooking generation couldn't afford to go to Britain bar on the boat.

So stop with this shyte that anyone over 60 got a cheap house.

Don't forget avocado on toast.

gormdubhgorm

I see sheep wrote: »

Brexit isn't 'sorted out'.

In those articles LV is meeting another European leader like every other European leader does.

The fact that he's chummy with that sack of **** Johnson doesn't exactly endear me to him to be honest :rolleyes:

FG aspired to be like the Tories but thankfully Irish people aren't duped as easily as the Brits (or at least thankfully this time, finally!)

I know that now you are just being disingenuous FG were instrumental in the Brexit deal while SF did nothing of note.

In view of that fact it is understandable why SF supporters wish to dismiss or degenerate such an achievement.

It is also ironic considering Brexit will have a major impact on NI yet the ROI electorate do not seem to care about it. Plus the AI party of SF did nothing to to try and prevent it. Out of stormont not in WM etc etc

The irony is that ROI people were duped because they do not understand the complexity of Brexit - relates to trade, workers free movement of goods, even technology data protection etc.
The Irish people were duped by the vague populist promise of 'change' housing homelessness etc. And fighting back etc.
But few have really looked at SF's record in NI as per one of my previous posts.

That is before you add in the paramilitary under current that is with SF as seen in recent weeks and days - which got in the backdoor - on the back of housing promises.

jam_mac_jam

I don't think its too much to ask that you have the same standard of living as your parents.

I hope some day my son is able to buy his own house, he studied got a good job. He can't see himself ever buying a house if he has to rent.

Is it really that crazy that another generation doesn't get screwed over by the housing market.

After the last recession and negative equity you would think we would have learnt a lesson. But no we are dismissing a real and fundamental concern.

We are a rich country. Young people deserve a share of that do. A small house that you own or apartment. Is that really that crazy.

bladespin

Strikes me that there's still an amazing amounts of arrogance on display from FF/FG supporters.

The results of this election have nothing to do with voters being 'duped' etc - nobody in Ireland believes a pre election promise from a politician - any politician, the message they should be hearing is that the voters want a change, they're fed up with 'political elites' backslapping each other and have decided to take a chance on something different - despite all the negativity surrounding SF, this should be the wake up call, they would rather the working class, chancer, paramilitary linked, lefty thinking SF than the others.

Earthhorse

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

I don't think its too much to ask that you have the same standard of living as your parents.

I hope some day my son is able to buy his own house, he studied got a good job. He can't see himself ever buying a house if he has to rent.

Is it really that crazy that another generation doesn't get screwed over by the housing market.

After the last recession and negative equity you would think we would have learnt a lesson. But no we are dismissing a real and fundamental concern.

We are a rich country. Young people deserve a share of that do. A small house that you own or apartment. Is that really that crazy.

Of course not. The question though, is whether SF can deliver that? Personally, I'm skeptical.

There are also questions we can ask about whether we have reached peak wealth in some ways in the West which is why there is so much political division. Ireland is not the only country where housing is a problem. It may be that future generations will have to have a lesser standard of living than their parents in some aspects of life.

gormdubhgorm

bladespin wrote: »

Strikes me that there's still an amazing amounts of arrogance on display from FF/FG supporters.

The results of this election have nothing to do with voters being 'duped' etc - nobody in Ireland believes a pre election promise from a politician - any politician, the message they should be hearing is that the voters want a change, they're fed up with 'political elites' backslapping each other and have decided to take a chance on something different - despite all the negativity surrounding SF, this should be the wake up call, they would rather the working class, chancer, paramilitary linked, lefty thinking SF than the others.

The splintering of the left in ROI politics has an an awful lot to do with SF's rise. Creating a vacuum.

Labour's dive to the depths and split creating the SD. Plus as a fella said before Labour started wearing ties!
The rise of the Green's did not help labour either taking many of the centre left, middle class, urban dublin votes.

Then there is the fringe fellas from the PBP and many independents.

Before for many of these in the left thier natural home would have been Labour - under the broad left spectrum.
In my view Labour used to be SF without the paramilitary undercurrent.

nkl12xtw5goz70

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

I don't think its too much to ask that you have the same standard of living as your parents.

I'm not sure how old you are, but ask your parents sometime about the standard of living they enjoyed in Ireland of yore.

Before the 1990s, the country was on its knees economically, and most people didn't have any "standard of living" worth talking about. Most people worked on farms or in factories. A third-level education was out of the reach of the majority. There were no iPhones, Xboxes, or foreign holidays.

Before the 1990s, social welfare payments were a pittance compared to now. There was no lone parent's allowance before 1990, and so if a girl or woman got pregnant outside of marriage, she probably would wind up in a mother and baby home.

As for houses, a young professional couple today would turn up their noses at most of the homes people lived in back then.

But there's more to "standard of living" than home ownership. Young people in Ireland today have it better on almost every front than their parents' and grandparents' generations.

mrslancaster

Earthhorse wrote: »

.... Ireland is not the only country where housing is a problem. It may be that future generations will have to have a lesser standard of living than their parents in some aspects of life.

Absolutely disagree with that. Why should young people who study, work hard & pay high taxes have a lower standard of living than earlier generations?

bladespin

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

The splintering of the left in ROI politics has an an awful lot to do with SF's rise. Creating a vacuum.

Labour's dive to the depths and split creating the SD. Plus as a fella said before Labour started wearing ties!
The rise of the Green's did not help labour either taking many of the centre left, middle class, urban dublin votes.

Then there is the fringe fellas from the PBP and many independents.

Before for many of these in the left thier natural home would have been Labour - under the broad left spectrum.
In my view Labour used to be SF without the paramilitary undercurrent.

Very much this, a lot of the local indy councilors were promoting a vote for SF - PBP types etc. Labout are not the workers party - JB destroyed that myth.

I see sheep

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I know that now you are just being disingenuous FG were instrumental in the Brexit deal while SF did nothing of note.

In view of that fact it is understandable why SF supporters wish to dismiss or degenerate such an achievement.

Honestly believe you are on a wind-up about this Brexit stuff.

'such an achievement'

At best FG are totally irrelevant to Brexit.

The people 'doing' Brexit couldn't care less who the Irish government is.

There has been no achievement.

jmayo

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Amazing they could all buy them then. On one wage. In good areas. Must be much harder workers.

Yes they bought them usually on one salary, but then again right up until the 70s married women could not hold a public service job.
I can still remember visiting my uncle in Galway in late 70s, early 80s.
My first experience of city or even town living.
He lived in what would be termed middle class suburb built from 70s on.
He was in semi d on road of about 20 something houses, nearly 1/4 of them hadn't a car and any that did had A car.
I think by mid 80s and advent of new phone system most had a phone, but before that no.
Now most if not all of the mothers were stay at home.
It was just the way it was.
Most families were struggling to pay the mortgage and there was fook all other spending as in today.

Oh and listening to your point about "good areas", one would almost think everyone could buy houses in Foxrock or Shrewsbury Road. :rolleyes:
What was once outer suburbs that people bought in is now considered part of city.

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

I don't think its too much to ask that you have the same standard of living as your parents.

That aint going to happen and it is time people copped onto that fact in Western world.
I will not have the pension that those who have had similar qualifications and job as me who are retired now have.

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

I hope some day my son is able to buy his own house, he studied got a good job. He can't see himself ever buying a house if he has to rent.

Is it really that crazy that another generation doesn't get screwed over by the housing market.

After the last recession and negative equity you would think we would have learnt a lesson. But no we are dismissing a real and fundamental concern.

We are a rich country. Young people deserve a share of that do. A small house that you own or apartment. Is that really that crazy.

The rental market is where I have seen most change and I wholeheartedly agree rents are way too high.
And yes we should have been building faster to meet demand, but don't expect your son can buy a house in your areas just because you were able to on possibly a lower salary.
Our cities, our populations have increased and we are o longer the backwater with hue emigration.

BTW we built a housing bubble and we did not allow it fully deflate.
Thousands who should have been dumped out on their ar**es were not and that is one of the major reasons why we now have and will have higher interest rates than our neighbours in Europe.
Your son and the rest of us still paying a mortgage are going to pay for that.

BTW sorry to tell you this also, studying for a good degree is no longer the paths to riches or comfortabe living that it once was.

Oh and we are not really a rich country.
We are in debt, both personal and public, up to our eyeballs.
All of that supposed wealth could evaporate overnight.
Yes there are some very rich people, but the majority are nowhere near real wealth.
Over 50% of our corpo tax comes form 10 high tech non Irish companies.
The only indigenous enterprises our myopic banks and idiot politicians ever really backed were developers pushing overpriced crud to our population paid for by credit.
Our only real indigenous big player is agri and a lot of the younger generation like your son's can't now wait to screw it.

Yurt2

Earthhorse wrote: »

It may be that future generations will have to have a lesser standard of living than their parents in some aspects of life.

This post would make one tempted to vote for a party that would immediately means test the state pension.

You realise who's paying for that don't you? It's current expenditure, i.e. coming out of working age people's pay packet. There's there's no way in hell your stamps ever will ever come close to covering the cost of it. The state pension for those who have a private pension alongside it is the biggest giveaway in the Irish welfare system.

That would soften your cough.

Earthhorse

mrslancaster wrote: »

Absolutely disagree with that. Why should young people who study, work hard & pay high taxes have a lower standard of living than earlier generations?

Philosophically, they shouldn't. Practically, it may not be possible to continue to live in the manner we have to date sustainably. But it's worth noting that we don't pay higher taxes than many earlier generations of Irish.

jam_mac_jam

Kason Fancy Coal wrote: »

I'm not sure how old you are, but ask your parents sometime about the standard of living they enjoyed in Ireland of yore.

Before the 1990s, the country was on its knees economically, and most people didn't have any "standard of living" worth talking about. Most people worked on farms or in factories. A third-level education was out of the reach of the majority. There were no iPhones, Xboxes, or foreign holidays.

Before the 1990s, social welfare payments were a pittance compared to now. There was no lone parent's allowance before 1990, and so if a girl or woman got pregnant outside of marriage, she probably would wind up in a mother and baby home.

As for houses, a young professional couple today would turn up their noses at most of the homes people lived in back then.

But there's more to "standard of living" than home ownership. Young people in Ireland today have it better on almost every front than their parents' and grandparents' generations.

In some ways they do. However my parents have it much easier in relation to house buying and i have it much easier then my son.

My parents have a five bed and a holiday home with very normal jobs. The house was bought on my dads wages alone. I am better educated and had difficulty buying a house. It is impossible for my son to buy.

Dont get me wrong, my father worked his arse off his whole life and they deserve it. But so does my son. So do my friends who got ****ed over with huge mortgages and negative equity.

I don't know how much iphones make up for not buying or renting a decent home. As i said we are a rich country and the riches shouldn't be a lottery on when you were born.

Earthhorse

Yurt! wrote: »

This post would make one tempted to vote for a party that would immediately means test the state pension.

You realise who's paying for that don't you? It's current expenditure, i.e. coming out of working age people's pay packet. There's there's no way in hell your stamps ever will ever come close to covering the cost of it. The state pension for those who have a private pension alongside it is the biggest giveaway in the Irish welfare system.

That would soften your cough.

No idea what you're talking about or how it relates to anything I've said.