What have we come to

gormdubhgorm

GreenandRed wrote: »

No you don't. You made up what the banner say, invented a new context. That's all I replied to you about. You're a troll. CU next Tuesday.

You are seeing thing that are not there - NY clearly mentioned etc. You would want to blind not to see it. No wonder Mayo have no decent scoring forwards!

gormdubhgorm

Beasty wrote: »

If you have a problem with a post or poster report it and leave the modding to the mods

I hope Green and Red poster reports me so thier stupidity can be unveiled.
I have clearly mentioned Mary Lou NY and naive rich Americans.

It baffles me why Green and Red thinks this is trolling.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

That is more your two comrades who thanked your post - Matt Barrett, and Green and Red- that is thier strengths.

Yours is the man of straw argument so you can keep moving the goal posts - National Anthem - Leo and the Collins pic etc etc

You never did explain what the difference was. Still waiting,

By far the best at deflection artist and mythmaker has to be Matt Barrett not only does he/she not answer questions directly - but distorts the truth.
Does things like telling people to forget the past, then brings up the past when it suits.
A SF Councillor in the making at least

You are on such a diatribe gormdubh, it is difficult to see what your point is.

Is it that a political party may have at times gilded the lily?
At times may have tried to turn a failure into a victory?
May have done something they said they wouldn't?

What political party cannot be accused of that exactly?

James Brown

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Rubbish you have answered nothing -

1) Why chose the name of Leo's partner if you are so vehemently anti-FG?

2) Why claim that you are a first time SF voter prior to the election?

3) Then after the election why imply that you did not vote SF?

4) Why have you not found anything comparable to SF murders and/or cover ups of same with current representatives in the dail - other than SF?

5) Why do you try and deflect these issues by claiming FG damaged the country? When they renegotiated Brexit, recovered the economy. Why the denial of FG achievements?

6) Not only that you have the gall to claim and/or imply that anything FG may have done - aka Maria Bailey is much worse than murder or cover ups of same.
Why the dismissal of murders cover ups and a questionable approach to justice by SF?

7) You have notably given no comment on SF's record in governance in NI for the last 22 years. Which have many of the problems or worse which you claim FG caused in NI. Why no comment on this?

1) I got jokes.

2) That's not true never said that. I always give SF a nod, (except O'Snodaigh) never a number 1.

3) SF only ran O'Snodaigh, so I didn't. I still back their housing policy and hope they play a role in government.

4) This is a strained question. There are no SF murders for one thing. As for the other parties, I haven't looked and there likely isn't any. Did I claim something like that? I don't believe so.

5) Loaded question there Gormo. I've not deflected one thing. This is a lie you spin about posters that call you out on your other sh*te. I do not ignore high employment. I've mentioned it a number of times. FG were terrible and making things worse. Accept the will of your people.

6) More lies. I said the myriad crises and that are more pressing issues to the electorate than the alleged shenanigans of ex-IRA or SF affiliates.

7) Lies. I've commented on it a lot. I think SF and the IRA were a necessity for the conflict to push forward the rights of Catholics and nationalists. Times change and so do people. So there would be splinter groups not happy with the GFA and so on. If I lived up there I'd likely give SF a number 1 vote. I've said this before. The situation in the faux democracy in the occupied territory is not comparable. Also on criminality and terrorism. FF/FG have no need because they can bend the rules to fit their corruption and cronyism.

Now. I shouldn't be giving you my sense because you'll likely dismiss it with more lies and that, but I made the offer, so here I am.

What about FF? Generational debt less important than keeping the shinners from upsetting the civil war see-saw?

gormdubhgorm

patmac wrote: »

Anyway thoughts of a Squeezed Middle culchie ‘never going to vote for Sinn Fein’ 58 year old. I was watching prime time last night and it’s all so depressing. The current shower have a look outside the Dail windows and see the cranes and the place awash with money and think everything is grand.
I’m as badly off as I was in 2008 except I’m expected to work more and for another 3 years before I can retire.
I’m fortunate and I’m pissed of with the government, I can only imagine how the younger generation feel living to survive, although anyone who left school in the early 80’s will relate.

I thought give Sinn Fein a go until that fool started singing ‘up the ra’ and you think oh yeah this is why I didn’t vote for them.
Anyway the next government will be FF-FG or most likely FF-SF so telpis (Dublin inner City Centre Facebook word for God Help Us)

Fair play for your honesty, it is in short supply on this thread!
Your post is one that fairminded people can respect.

jimmycrackcorm

GreenandRed wrote: »

'Mary Lou in NY with the banner - get the english out of Ireland'


If you're gonna lie better not leave the evidence on the previous page.


Leader of party promoting a United Ireland holds an 'England get out of Ireland' banner in St. Patrick's Day Parade shocker.

You don't seem to realise that it's the unionists who are seeing that and it says to them that they're being told to get out of Ireland.

It's not a great message of your trying to entice unionists into a united Ireland.

jmayo

patmac wrote: »

Anyway thoughts of a Squeezed Middle culchie ‘never going to vote for Sinn Fein’ 58 year old. I was watching prime time last night and it’s all so depressing. The current shower have a look outside the Dail windows and see the cranes and the place awash with money and think everything is grand.
I’m as badly off as I was in 2008 except I’m expected to work more and for another 3 years before I can retire.
I’m fortunate and I’m pissed of with the government, I can only imagine how the younger generation feel living to survive, although anyone who left school in the early 80’s will relate.

I thought give Sinn Fein a go until that fool started singing ‘up the ra’ and you think oh yeah this is why I didn’t vote for them.
Anyway the next government will be FF-FG or most likely FF-SF so telpis (Dublin inner City Centre Facebook word for God Help Us)

I think sinn fein got a huge protest vote as I think Trump and Brexit were largely out of protests and wholesale disillusionment.
Problem has been that some of those same protest voters have become even more entrenched rather than less so as time passes.
Ultimately over time, once the consequences of the the decisions come majorily home to roost, will they shy away from their decisions.

The only question is how much damage is done in the meantime.

The lesson learned should be by the old political parties and establishment.
And what scares me is they aint learning those lessons, but simply lambasting the voters.

The funny thing is a huge chunk of sinn fein voters were the exact ones poking fun at and deriding Brexit voters and Trump voters for believing in change and throwing out the old standards and failures.

Hell how similar is talk by sinn feiners about cleaning out the Dail of the old establishment to Trump's draining the swamp ?

It is the same story, but just a left tinge put to it.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You never did explain what the difference was. Still waiting,;

Yes I did but you like dagging out the strawman game.
Your strength you are A1 at it top marks well done.

You are on such a diatribe gormdubh, it is difficult to see what your point is.

Is it that a political party may have at times gilded the lily?
At times may have tried to turn a failure into a victory?
May have done something they said they wouldn't?

What political party cannot be accused of that exactly?

Ok reasons SF remained blank on my ballot paper -

1) I looked at SF's governance record in NI politically and saw the hypocrisy - health, soc welfare, housing etc

2) There is a large cohort in SF who drag the rest down and pander to the paras etc (as proven in recent days)

3) I saw Mary Lou's disastrous performance on Prime Time that was the clincher for me (SF are unwilling to even aspire be a clean party I thought to myself)


Reason's I voted FG for the first time

1) How FG fared with Brexit - full employment etc

2) Aimed for collation of FG, Greens, SD, Labour, - nice mix of centre right and centre left

3) There was a lack of independent credible voices in the constituency this time around

James Brown

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

You don't seem to realise that it's the unionists who are seeing that and it says to them that they're being told to get out of Ireland.

It's not a great message of your trying to entice unionists into a united Ireland.

TBF, by definition you cannot 'entice' a Unionist to not be a Unionist. I don't want them out but I do want a united Ireland.
When we've discussed that banner it's suggested England relates to Westminster.

flynnlives

The gov can build houses at cost. The gov has no incentive to make a profit.
Introduce some form of a rent to buy scheme, the property remains an asset of the state.

In my parents generation and throughout the late 20th century the gov built many many social houses. Many estates. They did this all over the country. There is nothing to stoip them doing it again.

The gov are well able to find the money for NAMA and underwrite all bank debts but building houses is impossible? Its BS.
The political will just isnt there because FF and FG are beholden to monied interests.

I didnt vote for Sinn Fein btw but i can see why people did. Something has gotta give in this country with regards housing.

It is in everyones interest. Even current homeowners. If things dont change who is going to be paying the rents for all the people who retire?
State pension wont cover rent. Home owners and the wealthy will need to be tapped. So its in everyones interest to fix housing.

GreenandRed

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

You don't seem to realise that it's the unionists who are seeing that and it says to them that they're being told to get out of Ireland.

It's not a great message of your trying to entice unionists into a united Ireland.

100% agree with that. Not saying it was a smart move by Mary Lou. But we shouldn't be so surprised by her views.



Just that the poster deliberately misrepresented what was on the banner.

thequarefellow

It's interesting seeing people's opinions such that the economy is already down the tubes before a new government has even been formed. Public sentiment is a powerful tool in recession making: people are (unnecessarily) afraid, they hold off on spending, they spread the doom and gloom and the economy gets worse. Everyone should just chill out a little.

James Brown

flynnlives wrote: »

The gov can build houses at cost. The gov has no incentive to make a profit.
Introduce some form of a rent to buy scheme, the property remains an asset of the state.

In my parents generation and throughout the late 20th century the gov built many many social houses. Many estates. They did this all over the country. There is nothing to stoip them doing it again.

The gov are well able to find the money for NAMA and underwrite all bank debts but building houses is impossible? Its BS.
The political will just isnt there because FF and FG are beholden to monied interests.

I didnt vote for Sinn Fein btw but i can see why people did. Something has gotta give in this country with regards housing.

It is in everyones interest. Even current homeowners. If things dont change who is going to be paying the rents for all the people who retire?
State pension wont cover rent. Home owners and the wealthy will need to be tapped. So its in everyones interest to fix housing.

More private profit in government buying and leasing. This is more important to FG than tackling the crises and looking after the tax payer purse. That's why they had to go.

GreenandRed

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

You don't seem to realise that it's the unionists who are seeing that and it says to them that they're being told to get out of Ireland.

It's not a great message of your trying to entice unionists into a united Ireland.

For me she wants the British government out if Northern Ireland. She has negotiated with Unionists before and knows she has to respect their views and traditions. Which isn't the same as saying she's happy with the Unionists views or traditions.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Yes I did but you like dagging out the strawman game.
Your strength you are A1 at it top marks well done.




Ok reasons SF remained blank on my ballot paper -

1) I looked at SF's governance record in NI politically and saw the hypocrisy - health, soc welfare, housing etc

2) There is a large cohort in SF who drag the rest down and pander to the paras etc (as proven in recent days)

3) I saw Mary Lou's disastrous performance on Prime Time that was the clincher for me (SF are unwilling to even aspire be a clean party I thought to myself)

and? Seriously, you are free to form any opinion you wish. The country is not going to go down the tubes because people disagree with your view and vote for someone else.

You need to stop the Eoghan Harris 'losing your marbles' diatribes about it.

Reason's I voted FG for the first time

1) How FG fared with Brexit - full employment etc

2) Aimed for collation of FG, Greens, SD, Labour, - nice mix of centre right and centre left

3) There was a lack of independent credible voices in the constituency this time around

Fair play. Nobody stopped you doing that, did they?

thequarefellow

flynnlives wrote: »

The gov are well able to find the money for NAMA and underwrite all bank debts but building houses is impossible? Its BS.
The political will just isnt there because FF and FG are beholden to monied interests.

There were a couple of economist on Radio 1 this morning saying the same thing. A government that isn't beholden to developer cronies, land rezoning interests and others will be well able to build houses quickly and affordably. Just f**kin' do it, it's not rocket science.

James Brown

thequarefellow wrote: »

It's interesting seeing people's opinions such that the economy is already down the tubes before a new government has even been formed. Public sentiment is a powerful tool in recession making: people are (unnecessarily) afraid, they hold off on spending, they spread the doom and gloom and the economy gets worse. Everyone should just chill out a little.

The markets have zero conscience and are not a good gauge on what's the best move. Case in point, if SF get in we might see a drop, if FF get in we might see a rise. People may remember the crash. The markets loved FF right up until the arse fell out and the general public got blamed by both FF and later FG and the tax payer had to bail all the gamblers out for the team.
So I'll take a nervous market if it means the tax payer might get looked after for once rather than as a middling default.

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

The markets have zero conscience and are not a good gauge on what's the best move. Case in point, if SF get in we might see a drop, if FF get in we might see a rise. People may remember the crash. The markets loved FF right up until the arse fell out and the general public got blamed by both FF and later FG and the tax payer had to bail all the gamblers out for the team.
So I'll take a nervous market if it means the tax payer might get looked after for once rather than as a middling default.

I think the problem is more that if the markets get scared, the bond rates go up, and the multinationals take flight or even pause investment, the few enough taxpayers left will be stuck paying down government debt and there will be little enough left to give them a hand-out.

James Brown

FrancieBrady wrote: »

and? Seriously, you are free to form any opinion you wish. The country is not going to go down the tubes because people disagree with your view and vote for someone else.

You need to stop the Eoghan Harris 'losing your marbles' diatribes about it.



Fair play. Nobody stopped you doing that, did they?

Nobody called him an ignorant ill educated waster either.

Yurt2

thequarefellow wrote: »

There were a couple of economist on Radio 1 this morning saying the same thing. A government that isn't beholden to developer cronies, land rezoning interests and others will be well able to build houses quickly and affordably. Just f**kin' do it, it's not rocket science.

Stop! stop! stop! The grand narrative is collapsing around me.

bUiLDiNG aFfORDaBLE HOusInG iS imPOSSibLe! I dOn'T CaRe if AUSTriANS Do it. ThAT's dIFFeRent. TheY SPEak GeRMan.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

I think the problem is more that if the markets get scared, the bond rates go up, and the multinationals take flight or even pause investment, the few enough taxpayers left will be stuck paying down government debt and there will be little enough left to give them a hand-out.

They will all do what's most likely to make them money. Only time will tell. They couldn't care less who gets in once they can make money.
We could do with less of some kinds such as vulture funds and if a few Putin affiliated oil companies who legally launder money through Ireland while having little to no staff and paying little taxes leave, I can live with that.

gormdubhgorm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

1) I got jokes.

Some humour

2) That's not true never said that. I always give SF a nod, (except O'Snodaigh) never a number 1.

3) SF only ran O'Snodaigh, so I didn't. I still back their housing policy and hope they play a role in government.

Yes you did on many occasion you said you were 'a first time SF voter.' Maybe this was more humor?

4) This is a strained question. There are no SF murders for one thing. As for the other parties, I haven't looked and there likely isn't any. Did I claim something like that? I don't believe so.

Even how you couch this is disingenuous. There are no SF murders true. But there are SF reps protecting republican murderers - denying justice

5) Loaded question there Gormo. I've not deflected one thing. This is a lie you spin about posters that call you out on your other sh*te. I do not ignore high employment. I've mentioned it a number of times. FG were terrible and making things worse. Accept the will of your people.

Yes you did the basic premise of your argument any fraud > murder or cover up of same.

6) More lies. I said the myriad crises and that are more pressing issues to the electorate than the alleged shenanigans of ex-IRA or SF affiliates.

Avoidance of SF's record in NI so health housing etc ?

7) Lies. I've commented on it a lot. I think SF and the IRA were a necessity for the conflict to push forward the rights of Catholics and nationalists. Times change and so do people. So there would be splinter groups not happy with the GFA and so on. If I lived up there I'd likely give SF a number 1 vote. I've said this before. The situation in the faux democracy in the occupied territory is not comparable. Also on criminality and terrorism. FF/FG have no need because they can bend the rules to fit their corruption and cronyism.

Is SF protection of republican murders and cover up not corruption and cronyism?
Or do you only associate those monkier's with big business?

The Paul Quinn murder happened nearly a decade after times changed supposedly changed/ Yet SF helped to corrupt justice by not getting justice for Paul Quinn who was lured to the ROI not that far off state of NI.
The republican cronies have stuck together not only to prevent justice on the issue, but tried to discredit Paul Quinn

Now. I shouldn't be giving you my sense because you'll likely dismiss it with more lies and that, but I made the offer, so here I am.

Handy way of not answering a question.

What about FF? Generational debt less important than keeping the shinners from upsetting the civil war see-saw?

I never voted FF in my life for many of the reasons I assume you do not.

I do not like the FF culture it is a slightly more palatable culture than SF. But that is how low I would put them. Maybe just above SF or the fringe independent headbangers.

If SF did get it's act together and were more honest and open - clean. Then I would vote for them maybe even in the top three.

But latest events following have proven me right and SF have to go a long way to clean it's house and mindset.

Mr E

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Loaded question there Gormo.

Mod: Nip this kind of crap in the bud please, Matt. Debate is healthy, namecalling is not. Cheers.

flynnlives

We are also building the most expensive hospital in the world. I reckon it will end up nearer to 3bn by completion.

Yet we cant embark on a massive state housing building program?
Utter nonsense.

Perhasp the reason this hasnt happened is 33% of TD's are landlords. Why would they vote for christmas?
Notice how very little change has happened in rental sector legislation. Even something simple as an escrow system for rental deposits never happened.
The PRTB is just a token operation, is cronically underfunded.

James Brown

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Some humour



Yes you did on many occasion you said you were 'a first time SF voter.' Maybe this was more humor?

Show me the quote.

Even how you couch this is disingenuous. There are no SF murders true. But there are SF reps protecting republican murderers - denying justice

You sell your spin on inference and lies. You said SF murders.

Yes you did the basic premise of your argument any fraud > murder or cover up of same.

Lie. A couple working needing state aid would find that more of a pressing issue than a remark a NI SF'er made about a killing several years ago.

Avoidance of SF's record in NI so health housing etc ?

Didn't avoid it. You just raised it now. I don't know anything about it. I assume it's bad?

Is SF protection of republican murders and cover up not corruption and cronyism?
Or do you only associate those monkier's with big business?

You read my reply right? I'm suggesting they are different crimes based on different circumstances. FF/FG have been using the tax payer for their personal gain for generations. An illegal group stole from banks. These do not cancel each other out.

The Paul Quinn murder happened nearly a decade after times changed supposedly changed/ Yet SF helped to corrupt justice by not getting justice for Paul Quinn who was lured to the ROI not that far off state of NI.
The republican cronies have stuck together not only to prevent justice on the issue, but tried to discredit Paul Quinn

Do you have proof SF corrupted justice or by not doing the PSNI's job for them? If you can link this murder to SF, go for it.
Have you proof republican's killed him and do you know why?
The media and FF/FG used that woman's grief to score points and deflect from current more pressing election issues. It was disgusting IMO.

Handy way of not answering a question.

What question?

I never voted FF in my life for many of the reasons I assume you do not.

I do not like the FF culture it is a slightly more palatable culture than SF. But that is how low I would put them. Maybe just above SF or the fringe independent headbangers.

If SF did get it's act together and were more honest and open - clean. Then I would vote for them maybe even in the top three.

But latest events following have proven me right and SF have to go a long way to clean it's house and mindset.

You put 100% of your effort into SF and zero into FF, yet we know FF have and will likely again, crash the country. Seems odd to me.

Snow Garden

jmayo wrote: »

I think sinn fein got a huge protest vote as I think Trump and Brexit were largely out of protests and wholesale disillusionment.
Problem has been that some of those same protest voters have become even more entrenched rather than less so as time passes.
Ultimately over time, once the consequences of the the decisions come majorily home to roost, will they shy away from their decisions.

The only question is how much damage is done in the meantime.

The lesson learned should be by the old political parties and establishment.
And what scares me is they aint learning those lessons, but simply lambasting the voters.

I don't think it's right that FFG and RTE are sneering at SF voters. It's democracy at work and FFG have led some very poor governments over the last 20 years. FFG dont do lessons learned.

The fact is that SF left approx 10 seats behind them in this election.

I think now that FF and FG will form a coalition with Greens or SDs. Hard to call though.

I just hope we get some 'new politics' this time around. Some honest politics rather than corruption, fraud and gouging.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

and? Seriously, you are free to form any opinion you wish. The country is not going to go down the tubes because people disagree with your view and vote for someone else.

You need to stop the Eoghan Harris 'losing your marbles' diatribes about it.

I don't like EH and his paper nearly made me vote for SF in spite of him a few times in the past - when it got really silly. I got that annoyed. If you search for Independent attacks on SF you will find my post about it.

My gripe is the main SF vote was based on the vague promise of change housing and health etc But this was not delivered NI by SF clearly. Basic research shows this.

But many ROI new SF voters see NI as a distant place so have no problem with it. Nor do they remember the troubles or any issues relating to them afterwards.

Then to add to the irony most of those SF voters did not 'get' Brexit and it is going to affect the whole island NI and ROI

James Brown

flynnlives wrote: »

We are also building the most expensive hospital in the world. I reckon it will end up nearer to 3bn by completion.

Yet we cant embark on a massive state housing building program?
Utter nonsense.

Perhasp the reason this hasnt happened is 33% of TD's are landlords. Why would they vote for christmas?
Notice how very little change has happened in rental sector legislation. Even something simple as an escrow system for rental deposits never happened.
The PRTB is just a token operation, is cronically underfunded.

I'd say the contractors got up super early for FG to have looked after them so much

Jinglejangle69

Snow Garden wrote: »

I don't think it's right that FFG and RTE are sneering at SF voters. It's democracy at work and FFG have led some very poor governments over the last 20 years. FFG dont do lessons learned.

The fact is that SF left approx 10 seats behind them in this election.

I think now that FF and FG will form a coalition with Greens or SDs. Hard to call though.

I just hope we get some 'new politics' this time around. Some honest politics rather than corruption, fraud and gouging.

SF and Mary Lou sneer at FF and FG supporters when she says it would be a disaster for tweedledum and tweedledee to get back into power.

That's politics.

gormdubhgorm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

You put 100% of your effort into SF and zero into FF, yet we know FF have and will likely again, crash the country. Seems odd to me.

I neither voted FF/SF on my ballot paper as for putting effort on SF and not FF. The youngsters know the FF story not the SF one.

'FF are the lesser of two evils' to paraphrase Tony Gregory.

I do not have the time find your quote about your SF vote - but was prior to the election and on the why People don't vote SF thread I believe.

Also here is the bit I had about SF's record in NI -


SF have actually widened the gap between rich and poor in NI

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2020/02/10/celebrating-sinn-fein-election-surge-consider-their-pro-austerity-record-north



Health NI:

https://www.rte.ie/news/ulster/2019/1204/1097090-northern-ireland-health/

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:RVTQ7CyHeagJ:https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/thousands-of-nurses-in-northern-ireland-strike-over-pay-1.4133733+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

Housing NI:

https://thedetail.tv/articles/social-housing-bb946a8a-43df-450d-b8cd-66d71030cdf3

Homelessness NI:

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/more-quarter-recent-uk-homeless-21114251

Social Welfare NI:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3Kdvi9pOC4gJ:https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/sinn-f%25C3%25A9in-under-fire-over-welfare-cuts-move-1.2435441+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie


No governance in Stormont for over three years


Worse still SF sat on thier hands for three years playing games with the DUP in Stormont.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jan/10/pressure-mounts-northern-irish-parties-restore-power-sharing-sinn-fein-dup

That is before we get into murderers and/or cover ups of murderers etc and how I have to be very specific as you suddenly start nitpicking - I repeatedly said SF have covered up murders linked to republicanism - even those after 'the troubles'