What have we come to

gormdubhgorm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

1) I got jokes.

Some humour

2) That's not true never said that. I always give SF a nod, (except O'Snodaigh) never a number 1.

3) SF only ran O'Snodaigh, so I didn't. I still back their housing policy and hope they play a role in government.

Yes you did on many occasion you said you were 'a first time SF voter.' Maybe this was more humor?

4) This is a strained question. There are no SF murders for one thing. As for the other parties, I haven't looked and there likely isn't any. Did I claim something like that? I don't believe so.

Even how you couch this is disingenuous. There are no SF murders true. But there are SF reps protecting republican murderers - denying justice

5) Loaded question there Gormo. I've not deflected one thing. This is a lie you spin about posters that call you out on your other sh*te. I do not ignore high employment. I've mentioned it a number of times. FG were terrible and making things worse. Accept the will of your people.

Yes you did the basic premise of your argument any fraud > murder or cover up of same.

6) More lies. I said the myriad crises and that are more pressing issues to the electorate than the alleged shenanigans of ex-IRA or SF affiliates.

Avoidance of SF's record in NI so health housing etc ?

7) Lies. I've commented on it a lot. I think SF and the IRA were a necessity for the conflict to push forward the rights of Catholics and nationalists. Times change and so do people. So there would be splinter groups not happy with the GFA and so on. If I lived up there I'd likely give SF a number 1 vote. I've said this before. The situation in the faux democracy in the occupied territory is not comparable. Also on criminality and terrorism. FF/FG have no need because they can bend the rules to fit their corruption and cronyism.

Is SF protection of republican murders and cover up not corruption and cronyism?
Or do you only associate those monkier's with big business?

The Paul Quinn murder happened nearly a decade after times changed supposedly changed/ Yet SF helped to corrupt justice by not getting justice for Paul Quinn who was lured to the ROI not that far off state of NI.
The republican cronies have stuck together not only to prevent justice on the issue, but tried to discredit Paul Quinn

Now. I shouldn't be giving you my sense because you'll likely dismiss it with more lies and that, but I made the offer, so here I am.

Handy way of not answering a question.

What about FF? Generational debt less important than keeping the shinners from upsetting the civil war see-saw?

I never voted FF in my life for many of the reasons I assume you do not.

I do not like the FF culture it is a slightly more palatable culture than SF. But that is how low I would put them. Maybe just above SF or the fringe independent headbangers.

If SF did get it's act together and were more honest and open - clean. Then I would vote for them maybe even in the top three.

But latest events following have proven me right and SF have to go a long way to clean it's house and mindset.

Mr E

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Loaded question there Gormo.

Mod: Nip this kind of crap in the bud please, Matt. Debate is healthy, namecalling is not. Cheers.

flynnlives

We are also building the most expensive hospital in the world. I reckon it will end up nearer to 3bn by completion.

Yet we cant embark on a massive state housing building program?
Utter nonsense.

Perhasp the reason this hasnt happened is 33% of TD's are landlords. Why would they vote for christmas?
Notice how very little change has happened in rental sector legislation. Even something simple as an escrow system for rental deposits never happened.
The PRTB is just a token operation, is cronically underfunded.

James Brown

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Some humour



Yes you did on many occasion you said you were 'a first time SF voter.' Maybe this was more humor?

Show me the quote.

Even how you couch this is disingenuous. There are no SF murders true. But there are SF reps protecting republican murderers - denying justice

You sell your spin on inference and lies. You said SF murders.

Yes you did the basic premise of your argument any fraud > murder or cover up of same.

Lie. A couple working needing state aid would find that more of a pressing issue than a remark a NI SF'er made about a killing several years ago.

Avoidance of SF's record in NI so health housing etc ?

Didn't avoid it. You just raised it now. I don't know anything about it. I assume it's bad?

Is SF protection of republican murders and cover up not corruption and cronyism?
Or do you only associate those monkier's with big business?

You read my reply right? I'm suggesting they are different crimes based on different circumstances. FF/FG have been using the tax payer for their personal gain for generations. An illegal group stole from banks. These do not cancel each other out.

The Paul Quinn murder happened nearly a decade after times changed supposedly changed/ Yet SF helped to corrupt justice by not getting justice for Paul Quinn who was lured to the ROI not that far off state of NI.
The republican cronies have stuck together not only to prevent justice on the issue, but tried to discredit Paul Quinn

Do you have proof SF corrupted justice or by not doing the PSNI's job for them? If you can link this murder to SF, go for it.
Have you proof republican's killed him and do you know why?
The media and FF/FG used that woman's grief to score points and deflect from current more pressing election issues. It was disgusting IMO.

Handy way of not answering a question.

What question?

I never voted FF in my life for many of the reasons I assume you do not.

I do not like the FF culture it is a slightly more palatable culture than SF. But that is how low I would put them. Maybe just above SF or the fringe independent headbangers.

If SF did get it's act together and were more honest and open - clean. Then I would vote for them maybe even in the top three.

But latest events following have proven me right and SF have to go a long way to clean it's house and mindset.

You put 100% of your effort into SF and zero into FF, yet we know FF have and will likely again, crash the country. Seems odd to me.

Snow Garden

jmayo wrote: »

I think sinn fein got a huge protest vote as I think Trump and Brexit were largely out of protests and wholesale disillusionment.
Problem has been that some of those same protest voters have become even more entrenched rather than less so as time passes.
Ultimately over time, once the consequences of the the decisions come majorily home to roost, will they shy away from their decisions.

The only question is how much damage is done in the meantime.

The lesson learned should be by the old political parties and establishment.
And what scares me is they aint learning those lessons, but simply lambasting the voters.

I don't think it's right that FFG and RTE are sneering at SF voters. It's democracy at work and FFG have led some very poor governments over the last 20 years. FFG dont do lessons learned.

The fact is that SF left approx 10 seats behind them in this election.

I think now that FF and FG will form a coalition with Greens or SDs. Hard to call though.

I just hope we get some 'new politics' this time around. Some honest politics rather than corruption, fraud and gouging.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

and? Seriously, you are free to form any opinion you wish. The country is not going to go down the tubes because people disagree with your view and vote for someone else.

You need to stop the Eoghan Harris 'losing your marbles' diatribes about it.

I don't like EH and his paper nearly made me vote for SF in spite of him a few times in the past - when it got really silly. I got that annoyed. If you search for Independent attacks on SF you will find my post about it.

My gripe is the main SF vote was based on the vague promise of change housing and health etc But this was not delivered NI by SF clearly. Basic research shows this.

But many ROI new SF voters see NI as a distant place so have no problem with it. Nor do they remember the troubles or any issues relating to them afterwards.

Then to add to the irony most of those SF voters did not 'get' Brexit and it is going to affect the whole island NI and ROI

James Brown

flynnlives wrote: »

We are also building the most expensive hospital in the world. I reckon it will end up nearer to 3bn by completion.

Yet we cant embark on a massive state housing building program?
Utter nonsense.

Perhasp the reason this hasnt happened is 33% of TD's are landlords. Why would they vote for christmas?
Notice how very little change has happened in rental sector legislation. Even something simple as an escrow system for rental deposits never happened.
The PRTB is just a token operation, is cronically underfunded.

I'd say the contractors got up super early for FG to have looked after them so much

Jinglejangle69

Snow Garden wrote: »

I don't think it's right that FFG and RTE are sneering at SF voters. It's democracy at work and FFG have led some very poor governments over the last 20 years. FFG dont do lessons learned.

The fact is that SF left approx 10 seats behind them in this election.

I think now that FF and FG will form a coalition with Greens or SDs. Hard to call though.

I just hope we get some 'new politics' this time around. Some honest politics rather than corruption, fraud and gouging.

SF and Mary Lou sneer at FF and FG supporters when she says it would be a disaster for tweedledum and tweedledee to get back into power.

That's politics.

gormdubhgorm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

You put 100% of your effort into SF and zero into FF, yet we know FF have and will likely again, crash the country. Seems odd to me.

I neither voted FF/SF on my ballot paper as for putting effort on SF and not FF. The youngsters know the FF story not the SF one.

'FF are the lesser of two evils' to paraphrase Tony Gregory.

I do not have the time find your quote about your SF vote - but was prior to the election and on the why People don't vote SF thread I believe.

Also here is the bit I had about SF's record in NI -


SF have actually widened the gap between rich and poor in NI

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2020/02/10/celebrating-sinn-fein-election-surge-consider-their-pro-austerity-record-north



Health NI:

https://www.rte.ie/news/ulster/2019/1204/1097090-northern-ireland-health/

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:RVTQ7CyHeagJ:https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/thousands-of-nurses-in-northern-ireland-strike-over-pay-1.4133733+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

Housing NI:

https://thedetail.tv/articles/social-housing-bb946a8a-43df-450d-b8cd-66d71030cdf3

Homelessness NI:

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/more-quarter-recent-uk-homeless-21114251

Social Welfare NI:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3Kdvi9pOC4gJ:https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/sinn-f%25C3%25A9in-under-fire-over-welfare-cuts-move-1.2435441+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie


No governance in Stormont for over three years


Worse still SF sat on thier hands for three years playing games with the DUP in Stormont.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jan/10/pressure-mounts-northern-irish-parties-restore-power-sharing-sinn-fein-dup

That is before we get into murderers and/or cover ups of murderers etc and how I have to be very specific as you suddenly start nitpicking - I repeatedly said SF have covered up murders linked to republicanism - even those after 'the troubles'

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I don't like EH and his paper nearly made me vote for SF in spite of him a few times in the past - when it got really silly. I got that annoyed. If you search for Independent attacks on SF you will find my post about it.

My gripe is the main SF vote was based on the vague promise of change housing and health etc But this was not delivered NI by SF clearly. Basic research shows this.

But many ROI new SF voters see NI as a distant place so have no problem with it. Nor do they remember the troubles or any issues relating to them afterwards.

Then to add to the irony most of those SF voters did not 'get' Brexit and it is going to affect the whole island NI and ROI

Anybody who 'knows' NI will say it is a totally different and unique entity in terms of governance and delivering a programme for government.
Of course SF can be criticised there, but it has to be in that context.

And as regards how people voted this time, that bus has left the station.

The pertinent issues now are how is a government going to be formed, not recriminations.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Anybody who 'knows' NI will say it is a totally different and unique entity in terms of governance and delivering a programme for government.
Of course SF can be criticised there, but it has to be in that context.

And as regards how people voted this time, that bus has left the station.

The pertinent issues now are how is a government going to be formed, not recriminations.

If ever there was a SF sweeping under the carpet line this is it!
Yet we have Dessie Ellis and David Culliane harking back to the past....

How do you stack that contradiction in your mind? Because I have to be honest after seeing that Culliane effort, than denial deflection and bluffing - if I had voted SF first time- I would feel unclean. Dirty. A return to days of tension and unease.

James Brown

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I neither voted FF/SF on my ballot paper as for putting effort on SF and not FF. The youngsters know the FF story not the SF one.

'FF are the lesser of two evils' to paraphrase Tony Gregory.

I do not have the time find your quote about your SF vote - but was prior to the election and on the why People don't vote SF thread I believe.

Also here is the bit I had about SF's record in NI -


SF have actually widened the gap between rich and poor in NI

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2020/02/10/celebrating-sinn-fein-election-surge-consider-their-pro-austerity-record-north



Health NI:

https://www.rte.ie/news/ulster/2019/1204/1097090-northern-ireland-health/

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:RVTQ7CyHeagJ:https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/thousands-of-nurses-in-northern-ireland-strike-over-pay-1.4133733+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

Housing NI:

https://thedetail.tv/articles/social-housing-bb946a8a-43df-450d-b8cd-66d71030cdf3

Homelessness NI:

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/more-quarter-recent-uk-homeless-21114251

Social Welfare NI:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3Kdvi9pOC4gJ:https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/sinn-f%25C3%25A9in-under-fire-over-welfare-cuts-move-1.2435441+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie


No governance in Stormont for over three years


Worse still SF sat on thier hands for three years playing games with the DUP in Stormont.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jan/10/pressure-mounts-northern-irish-parties-restore-power-sharing-sinn-fein-dup

That is before we get into murderers and/or cover ups of murderers etc and how I have to be very specific as you suddenly start nitpicking - I repeatedly said SF have covered up murders linked to republicanism - even those after 'the troubles'

Thanks for the links. I have access to the internet.
They represented the tax payer by holding Foster to account. I can see how that's silly games to a FG supporter.

I ain't nitpicking sh*t. I've answered. You keep making inferences.
If you've proof, great. This isn't a defence by the way. You blustering about SF and spinning yarns will get called out. Try it on another party, you'll get the same responses. This is all designed to cover up for FG and give FF a free pass IMO.

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

SF and Mary Lou sneer at FF and FG supporters when she says it would be a disaster for tweedledum and tweedledee to get back into power.

That's politics.

All the waster, scumbag, ill educated comments have been from FG supporters to anyone voted SF. That's seemingly FG politics.

Odhinn

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

If ever there was a SF sweeping under the carpet line this is it!
Yet we have Dessie Ellis and David Culliane harking back to the past....

So you'd like everyone to pretend that the armed struggle never happened?

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Thanks for the links. I have access to the internet.
They represented the tax payer by holding Foster to account. I can see how that's silly games to a FG supporter.

I ain't nitpicking sh*t. I've answered. You keep making inferences.
If you've proof, great. This isn't a defence by the way. You blustering about SF and spinning yarns will get called out. Try it on another party, you'll get the same responses. This is all designed to cover up for FG and give FF a free pass IMO.



All the waster, scumbag, ill educated comments have been from FG supporters to anyone voted SF.

Last I checked Foster was still First Minister. In fact she was tweeting today to explain to the public why a border poll isn't going to happen. Remind me how she was held to account, and how beneficial that was to justify three years outside of Stormont?

Snow Garden

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

SF and Mary Lou sneer at FF and FG supporters when she says it would be a disaster for tweedledum and tweedledee to get back into power.

That's politics.

I think it was a fair phrase to use. I don't think she was sneering at the FFG voters and suggesting they were 'bold' to vote the way they did in 2007, 2011 and 2016. She was suggesting they are are 2 sides of the same coin and have been a disaster for Ireland in recent decades. Which they have. FF bankrupted us and FG have achieved very little since 2011 and appear equally as corrupt, wasteful and self serving.

Did you read the new politics document that FG gave us in 2011? I did. And voted for it. It was a false promise.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Last I checked Foster was still First Minister. In fact she was tweeting today to explain to the public why a border poll isn't going to happen. Remind me how she was held to account, and how beneficial that was to justify three years outside of Stormont?

It wasn't silly games. You've spun blarney on this yourself a number of times.
They failed in the attempt. The walk out was justified. As a FG supporter I can see how the tax payer being ripped off might be okay with you.
Trying to get digs in. Is there a prize and how will we know who won?

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

If ever there was a SF sweeping under the carpet line this is it!
Yet we have Dessie Ellis and David Culliane harking back to the past....

How do you stack that contradiction in your mind? Because I have to be honest after seeing that Culliane effort, than denial deflection and bluffing - if I had voted SF first time- I would feel unclean. Dirty. A return to days of tension and unease.

Gormdubh, do you believe either of them were promoting an IRA that is still in existence? Serious question and you need to prove it. Suspicions don't work here.

If you don't, then the questions about the Collins painting and the call to arms that is our National Anthem come into play.

Like it or not (and I would prefer it wasn't) the IRA are a part of our history.

Like other aspects of our history we have to learn how to live with it appropriately.
If Cullinane was leaping onto a table during negotiations shouting 'Up the RA' that would be inappropriate, if he was parading past somebody's house shouting it, so too would that.
State commemorations for the RIC are inappropriate but as shown nobody believes that commemorating them is inappropriate.
Orange Marches are not inappropriate when they are respectful and non threatening and so on.

gormdubhgorm

Odhinn wrote: »

So you'd like everyone to pretend that the armed struggle never happened?

That is really twisting my point -


Here is what I want SF to do -

1) Condemn IRA atrocities - not say we all have lost lives in the struggle etc.
No cloaking in double talk and nods and winks.

2) Not protect those in republicanism who were involved in murder or accessories to same

3) Stop trying to unjustly discredit victims of republican related murder - take responsibility for it - own it as the yanks say.

4) Stop trying to glorify republicanism as if it was all glorious or heroic from any era

5) Stop writing others out of history because it does not suit the glorious republican narrative

6) Not try and bring down parts of the courts in the ROI merely because they used to catch your comrades - but at the same time claim to be tough on crime.

7) Admission of some of thier own failings of governance in NI and things they could do better - housing health soc welfare etc - not to hide behind the Brits for these failings

8) Stop glorifying republican funerals they should be much more low key and not polictised as much

9) Stop disrespecting the Irish tricolour after election victories along with old hat rhetoric

Odhinn

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

That is really twisting my point -


Here is what I want SF to do -

1) Condemn IRA atrocities - not say we all have lost lives in the struggle etc.
No cloaking in double talk and nods and winks.

2) Not protect those in republicanism who were involved in murder or accessories to same

3) Stop trying to unjustly discredit victims of republican related murder - take responsibility for it - own it as the yanks say.

4) Stop trying to glorify republicanism as if it was all glorious or heroic from any era

5) Stop writing others out of history because it does not suit the glorious republican narrative

6) Not try and bring down parts of the courts in the ROI merely because they used to catch your comrades - but at the same time claim to be tough on crime.

7) Admission of some of thier own failings of governance in NI and things they could do better - housing health soc welfare etc - not to hide behind the Brits for these failings

8) Stop glorifying republican funerals they should be much more low key and not polictised as much

9) Stop disrespecting the Irish tricolour after election victories along with old hat rhetoric

Sounds like you want them to not be a republican party, tbh.


There are far more people than SF that have a problem with the SCC. Other states manage well enough without one.

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

It wasn't silly games. You've spun blarney on this yourself a number of times.
They failed in the attempt. The walk out was justified.

If they failed, then it wasn't justified. Simple as. Three years were wasted in Northern Ireland when a lot could have been done for a failed walk-out. There is no way that can be justified.

Matt Barrett wrote: »

As a FG supporter I can see how the tax payer being ripped off might be okay with you.
Trying to get digs in. Is there a prize and how will we know who won?

The irony is funny.

1373

Sf saying we’re closer to a united ireland now, are we invading the north ? .

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

That is really twisting my point -


Here is what I want SF to do -

1) Condemn IRA atrocities - not say we all have lost lives in the struggle etc.
No cloaking in double talk and nods and winks.

2) Not protect those in republicanism who were involved in murder or accessories to same

3) Stop trying to unjustly discredit victims of republican related murder - take responsibility for it - own it as the yanks say.

4) Stop trying to glorify republicanism as if it was all glorious or heroic from any era

5) Stop writing others out of history because it does not suit the glorious republican narrative

6) Not try and bring down parts of the courts in the ROI merely because they used to catch your comrades - but at the same time claim to be tough on crime.

7) Admission of some of thier own failings of governance in NI and things they could do better - housing health soc welfare etc - not to hide behind the Brits for these failings

8) Stop glorifying republican funerals they should be much more low key and not polictised as much

9) Stop disrespecting the Irish tricolour after election victories along with old hat rhetoric

Did you have a list of demands for the parties you did vote for before you voted?

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

If they failed, then it wasn't justified. Simple as. Three years were wasted in Northern Ireland when a lot could have been done for a failed walk-out. There is no way that can be justified.

AND ignore again that we all know a deal was done and because they had the safety of the rotten to the core Tory deal, the DUP walked away from it.

Impossible.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Gormdubh, do you believe either of them were promoting an IRA that is still in existence? Serious question and you need to prove it. Suspicions don't work here.

If you don't, then the questions about the Collins painting and the call to arms that is our National Anthem come into play.

Considering the IRA is a secret paramiltary organisation the burden of proof you place on me is high/
Any chance I have of joining Óglaigh na hÉireann will be severely dented by this thread.

So I am not sure what prove you are asking for? Who do you think are the brains behind SF - the army council or former army council? They just did not start tending thier gardens or playing golf/


Of course I believe both those lads were promoting the provos. David C in particular gave a speech praising them for jayus sake. Although the song get out you black and tans seems harmless on it's own. It has a different more sinister meaning when former IRA man and prisoner Dessie E sings it.
Proof of the fact leopards do not change thier spots?

Like it or not (and I would prefer it wasn't) the IRA are a part of our history.

Like other aspects of our history we have to learn how to live with it appropriately.
If Cullinane was leaping onto a table during negotiations shouting 'Up the RA' that would be inappropriate, if he was parading past somebody's house shouting it, so too would that.

Come off it in many republicans eyes the RA can do no real wrong, they might refer to unfortunate mistakes at most for a killing here or there. What Cullinane did will stay on the internet for life - he only did it because he did not know he was being filmed. How do you think anyone who has to negotiate with him in future will see him? A wannabe provo, a bit of an eejit, not very savvy?

State commemorations for the RIC are inappropriate but as shown nobody believes that commemorating them is inappropriate.
Orange Marches are not inappropriate when they are respectful and non threatening and so on.

I am not getting into this again my views on it are well covered on the relevant thread.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Did you have a list of demands for the parties you did vote for before you voted?

In my head yeah.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

If they failed, then it wasn't justified. Simple as. Three years were wasted in Northern Ireland when a lot could have been done for a failed walk-out. There is no way that can be justified.

That's nonsense. You try do the right thing. That's what makes character. You don't know until you try. It was the right move IMO.

The irony is funny.

Boss, IMO all you do is try attack and score points.
Look at this. The other lad called it silly games. I explained why I don't think it was by citing Foster/cash for ash.
You come in saying she's still there. like them failing means what? They shouldn't have tried or na na, na, na na? Give over.

Odhinn

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

..............

Of course I believe both those lads were promoting the provos. David C in particular gave a speech praising them for jayus sake. Although the song get out you black and tans seems harmless on it's own. It has a different more sinister meaning when former IRA man and prisoner Dessie E sings it.
Proof of the fact leopards do not change thier spots?

............................

So what you want is for veteran republicans to pretend they aren't veteran republicans, disavow decades of effort for the republican cause, and stick to a list of approved ballads.

gormdubhgorm

Odhinn wrote: »

There are far more people than SF that have a problem with the SCC. Other states manage well enough without one.

I believe Mary Lou said something like... we want to tough on crime in dublin- something like the SCC but not the SCC! Was on P Kenny NT I am sure you can find the bit - pre election

---

The SCC worked great for Ireland in defending the state against offences against it from subversive organisations.

SF cynically hid behind Amnesty international and the likes - not because they believe in Human Rights - but because the SCC locked up many of thier republican comrades.

gormdubhgorm

Odhinn wrote: »

So what you want is for veteran republicans to pretend they aren't veteran republicans, disavow decades of effort for the republican cause, and stick to a list of approved ballads.

Nope I would like SF TD's to behave as respectable TD's, and not like gombeens pandering to vey dubious individuals in thier party base.

Is that too much to ask? I suppose in a way it is difficult to stop them from the mask slipping. A litmus test of sorts. Was David Culliane a veteran republican was he active in the field?

Odhinn

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I believe Mary Lou said something like... we want to tough on crime in dublin- something like the SCC but not the SCC! Was on P Kenny NT I am sure you can find the bit - pre election

---

The SCC worked great for Ireland in defending the state against offences against it from subversive organisations.

SF cynically hid behind Amnesty international and the likes - not because they believe in Human Rights - but because the SCC locked up many of thier republican comrades.

Regardless, the fact is that theres a number of organisations who have objected to the SCC, who are not republicans.