What have we come to

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Would you edit that to make sense? Like what does this mean?

What bit do you not understand?

If any of the following SF, FF. FG, SD. GREENS, LABOUR etc get into government, every single one of them will be making compromises.

That is the essence of coalition and C&S. That is why 'manifesto's' were glossy brochures and wish lists.

If you knew anything about realpolitik, you would know that.

Oh I well know but SF have based thier whole election on vague statements like alternative for change, fighting back etc.

Let's be honest most of the new SF voters

1) Did not care about Brexit 1%

2) Did not read the SF mainifesto and just chanced it

3) Does not realise that many of the promises SF make in thier manifesto are straight out of FF circa 1930's.

4) Do not know of any of SF's record in government in NI a proper analysis of housing health, social welfare cuts etc

5) Do not care about NI because it is distant from Dublin and up there - ironically partitionist in outlook

6) Do not remember the troubles or anything leading from it just over a decade ago - ancient history? No relevance to them

blanch152

markodaly wrote: »

That will be fun.

Either the Greens ditch the carbon taxes which is arguably their core tennant of their manifesto, or SF do a u-turn and agree to Carbon Taxes.

Senior Hurling now lads!!

Sinn Fein were the only party to promise not to increase carbon taxes, every other party recognises the need for it.

The Greens will not compromise on that point.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Gas craic!

To make a rambling point about contradictions in modern SF, you use a photo from the middle of a raging conflict/war in 1981 and counterpoint it with one from a Pride parade 21 years after the conflict/war ended with a Peace Agreement.

Well done Gormdubh, keep it up.

But it is all true.
Republican's love the auld dressing up.

The thick of the troubles are the times David Culliane dreams of - he felt like he has missed out (no active service aged 45). So now tries to live vicariously through them. His mate Dessie Ellis on the other hand had active service during the troubles - yet dreams of getting rid of tans. He wishes in was in the WOI 1919-1921.

And it shatters Mary Lou's efforts of normalising SF for a ROI electorate.
What would you do with them if you were Mary Lou?

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

What bit do you not understand?



Oh I well know but SF have based thier whole election on vague statements like alternative for change, fighting back etc.

Let's be honest most of the new SF voters

1) Did not care about Brexit 1%

1% of ALL voters gormdubh...get with the facts.
https://www.rte.ie/news/election-2020/2020/0209/1114111-election-exit-poll/

2) Did not read the SF mainifesto and just chanced it

Regina Doherty...'Who reads manifesto's?'

3) Does not realise that many of the promises SF make in thier manifesto are straight out of FF circa 1930's.

22% and 20% of voters ONLY voted for FF and FG 'promises'.

4) Do not know of any of SF's record in government in NI a proper analysis of housing health, social welfare cuts etc

SF have made plenty of mistakes, like any political party - they will do in the future, and nobody believes they will create 'Nirvana'.

NI is entirely unique and has a different way of doing business.

5) Do not care about NI because it is distant from Dublin and up there - ironically partitionist in outlook

That is an 'opinion' and isn't backed by any fact that I can see.

6) Do not remember the troubles or anything leading from it just over a decade ago - ancient history? No relevance to them

Which is arrogant and diversionary. Not to mention - made up.

markodaly

smurgen wrote: »

https://twitter.com/EOBroin/status/1227256737524322304?s=19

Why is he still fighting the election is my question?

shesty

DubInMeath wrote: »

So sf and the ira are one and the same by your logic, but the ira are now threatening their politicians in the north according to the link you provided.

They are one and the same.Anyone who knows their history knows that.SF are the public face of the IRA.

Their politicians stepped out of line (in their eyes), and in step the "dissident republicans" to remind them what their cause is (and who is boss.)

We really want this governing the country?

On a side note, I am very curious to see how the Gov make-up will happen.Numbers don't seem to be there - sensing a certain reluctance among left-leaning parties to be seen going into government with SF. Can't blame them really, but they are all damned if they do and damned if they don't.

holyhead

I have made this point already but will do so again to highlight inconsistency in SF.

They insist on British Army soldiers being brought to book for crimes as far back as the early 1970s. However they don't do anything to pursue justice for the victims of the IRA the military wing of SF.
Gerry Adams peddling the nonsense he was never in the IRA. Yet when the late Dolors Price and Brendan Hughes tell us he was involved in the kidnapping of Jean McConville they are ridiculed as being bitter.

The reality is that those voters here in the Republic, who voted SF, care not a jot about SF and their connection to the north. They care about jobs, homelessness, healthcare and transport. They appeal to a middle to lower class disenfranchised mass who, understandably, don't see much cause for optimism in voting FG and FF back in.

If SF get into government it will be interesting to see what actual positive change the bring about.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I suppose ha ha nudge nudge, you would be expecting them to force the Greens into government at gunpoint?...har dee har har, I am so edgy.

All parties will have to compromise on redlines if a government is to be formed.


Let's see what evolves.

What are you blathering on about? My point is a sound one.

SF do not believe in a carbon tax, the Greens do. The Greens will not go into government if SF wants to ditch carbon taxes.

SF arent even in government and they are failing already. :pac:

shesty

holyhead wrote: »

I have made this point already but will do so again to highlight inconsistency in SF.

They insist on British Army soldiers being brought to book for crimes as far back as the early 1970s. However they don't do anything to pursue justice for the victims of the IRA the military wing of SF.
Gerry Adams peddling the nonsense he was never in the IRA. Yet when the late Dolors Price and Brendan Hughes tell us he was involved in the kidnapping of Jean McConville they are ridiculed as being bitter.

The reality is that voters here in the Republic care not a jot about SF and their connection to the north. They care about jobs, homelessness, healthcare and transport. They appeal to a middle to lower class disenfranchised mass who, understandably, don't see much cause for optimism in voting FG and FF back in.

If SF get into government it will be interesting to see what actual positive change the bring about.

I can absolutely see the appeal of them to the group you note.They do good soundbites.The same people probably don't care much about where the money comes from to fund all of their plans, as long as they happen.

My point is more addressing the horror that so many people are expressing at the huge vote SF got, and why there are so many people who simply don't understand that horror.Between their history, and their plans for government, plenty of people are literally horrified at the situation.

Mind you, if they ran again next week I seriously wonder would the turnout be any better in an effort to prevent them being re-elected...and sadly, I doubt it.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

1% of ALL voters gormdubh...get with the facts.
https://www.rte.ie/news/election-2020/2020/0209/1114111-election-exit-poll/

So it is even LESS a percentage among new SF voters thanks for clarifying.

Also the very fact the ROI electorate does not care about Brexit is indicative of how they do not care about NI. As the two are intertwined.

NI is entirely unique and has a different way of doing business.

Complete cop out how do you explain the likes of this?

SF did a u turn on Social Welfare and let the powers move to westminster in the face of SDLP criticism ....

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/sinn-f%C3%A9in-under-fire-over-welfare-cuts-move-1.2435441

As to your other points there is plenty of evidence to the contrary on this very thread.
You know and I know SF got the surge from those distant to the troubles both in age and geographically. Most in the ROI electorate do not really care about NI. It is 'up there'. Granted they might pay lip service and say a UI would be nice. But that is the limit of it.

There is plenty of evidence to the contary of the points you made both in the polls, radio, and various vox pops etc. The Irish electorate did not vote for SF because of UI they wanted housing, better health and so on.
On many of these things SF failed miserably on in NI. The most basic searches confirm this.


But sure who cares about that says you? It is 'up there' it is a unique situation what a complete cop out.

gormdubhgorm

holyhead wrote: »

I have made this point already but will do so again to highlight inconsistency in SF.

They insist on British Army soldiers being brought to book for crimes as far back as the early 1970s. However they don't do anything to pursue justice for the victims of the IRA the military wing of SF.
Gerry Adams peddling the nonsense he was never in the IRA. Yet when the late Dolors Price and Brendan Hughes tell us he was involved in the kidnapping of Jean McConville they are ridiculed as being bitter.

The reality is that those voters here in the Republic, who voted SF, care not a jot about SF and their connection to the north. They care about jobs, homelessness, healthcare and transport. They appeal to a middle to lower class disenfranchised mass who, understandably, don't see much cause for optimism in voting FG and FF back in.

If SF get into government it will be interesting to see what actual positive change the bring about.

Good point on the British Army 1970 I had forgotten that hypocrisy.
There are so many I cannot keep up.

But sure you are not allowed to point any of thier hypocrisies out, it is deemed as Shinner bashing.

Plumbthedepths

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

So it is even LESS a percentage among new SF voters thanks for clarifying.

Also the very fact the ROI electorate does not care about Brexit is indicative of how they do not care about NI. As the two are intertwined.


Even when presented with an unbiased figure of how little importantance Brexit was to the electorate you still try to spin it. I'm surprised others are willing to engage with such a disingenuous standard of commentary.

blanch152

markodaly wrote: »

What are you blathering on about? My point is a sound one.

SF do not believe in a carbon tax, the Greens do. The Greens will not go into government if SF wants to ditch carbon taxes.

SF arent even in government and they are failing already. :pac:

Sinn Fein's tax measures do not add up, so they will have to ditch the carbon tax promise anyway. The cyncial might think that they knew that before the election but promised it anyway.

Plumbthedepths

blanch152 wrote: »

Sinn Fein's tax measures do not add up, so they will have to ditch the carbon tax promise anyway. The cyncial might think that they knew that before the election but promised it anyway.

Might be a similar pledge to FG's to abolish the USC quickly dropped after they formed government in 2016.

gormdubhgorm

shesty wrote: »

They are one and the same.Anyone who knows their history knows that.SF are the public face of the IRA.

Their politicians stepped out of line (in their eyes), and in step the "dissident republicans" to remind them what their cause is (and who is boss.)

We really want this governing the country?

On a side note, I am very curious to see how the Gov make-up will happen.Numbers don't seem to be there - sensing a certain reluctance among left-leaning parties to be seen going into government with SF. Can't blame them really, but they are all damned if they do and damned if they don't.

It was also interesting that Michelle O'Neill did not outright condemn the dissidents
.
She mentioned the threat to her safety family etc
The bit that really stuck out to me was that Ms O'Neill mentions that the dissidents republicans have no strategy

Interesting choice of words?

It also struck me how her family the Doris's were involved in the very activity she now condemns. By people who had no mandate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_O%27Neill#Background

Of course Gerry Kelly's hypocrisy goes without saying

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerry_Kelly#Early_life

It is the same thing I keep finding time and time again with SF. Hypocrisy and contradiction. They are just a contradiction wrapped in an hypocrisy at this stage.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

What are you blathering on about? My point is a sound one.

SF do not believe in a carbon tax, the Greens do. The Greens will not go into government if SF wants to ditch carbon taxes.

SF arent even in government and they are failing already. :pac:

How have they 'failed already' Mark...have you a looking glass? They haven't met yet.



It won't be a 'sell out' for me if SF give way on a carbon Tax nor if the Greens give way on implementing one, because I don't believe ANYONE of the 'manifesto's have redlines nor that they are anymore than glossy flim fam for the politically naive.


Let's see how the talks go.

gormdubhgorm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

So it is even LESS a percentage among new SF voters thanks for clarifying.

Also the very fact the ROI electorate does not care about Brexit is indicative of how they do not care about NI. As the two are intertwined.


Even when presented with an unbiased figure of how little importantance Brexit was to the electorate you still try to spin it. I'm surprised others are willing to engage with such a disingenuous standard of commentary.

Do you not understand the point? Brexit has a critical effect on the whole island of Ireland in particular NI.

Yet the ROI electorate do not care about it.

Partly this is do to lack of understanding of such a complex issue and the electorate's distance from NI. FG took the hit for this and it is only in years to come people will realise how momentous it was and how well FG did with the deal.

Plumbthedepths

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Do you not understand the point? Brexit has a critical effect on the whole island of Ireland in particular NI.

Yet the ROI electorate do not care about it.

Partly this is do to lack of understanding of such a complex issue and the electorate's distance from NI. FG took the hit for this and it is only in years to come people will realise how momentous it was and how well FG did with the deal.

Do you understand what disingenuous means? You attempted to spin figures to suit your own agenda.
I'm not disappearing down any rabbit holes with your style of posting. I'll let others fall for that behaviour.

gormdubhgorm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Do you understand what disingenuous means? You attempted to spin figures to suit your own agenda.
I'm not disappearing down any rabbit holes with your style of posting. I'll let others fall for that behaviour.

Where did I spin figures I have given figures on housing on NI and so.
I have given details on NI health issues, social welfare and so on and so forth.

The point I make is about the contradiction regarding the electorate in the ROI, NI, Brexit and so on.

1% only care about Brexit in ROI.

How many of that percentage were SF voters?
0.02% max?

Is this the figure I should have used because if so it proves my argument even more. The Brexit issue was just too complex to sell to the Irish electorate vague promises of change much easier.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

So it is even LESS a percentage among new SF voters thanks for clarifying.

Also the very fact the ROI electorate does not care about Brexit is indicative of how they do not care about NI. As the two are intertwined.

Since 2016 the electorate has seen (once FG were persuaded) all political parties working in unison on Brexit.
They are clearly happy this will continue...therefore it was not a factor in who got in.

Complete cop out how do you explain the likes of this?

SF did a u turn on Social Welfare and let the powers move to westminster in the face of SDLP criticism ....

Why would I have to explain it? I voted for SF, I am not a member.
And I ACCEPT that political parties make mistakes - do things for various reasons - and may not ALWAYS do what I want them to do.



Here is SF's take on things, just to show you that there is in politics 2 sides to a story, as in life.

https://www.sinnfein.ie/files/2015/Welfare_the_facts_SF.pdf

By the way, I am not getting into a debate on whether they are right or wrong. Just pointing out the existence of 2 points of view.

As to your other points there is plenty of evidence to the contrary on this very thread.
You know and I know SF got the surge from those distant to the troubles both in age and geographically. Most in the ROI electorate do not really care about NI. It is 'up there'. Granted they might pay lip service and say a UI would be nice. But that is the limit of it.

Well, again. That is an 'just your opinion man'.

BTW, The 'troubles' as you quaintly call them are in the distance. 24 yrs, to be exact.

There is plenty of evidence to the contary of the points you made both in the polls, radio, and various vox pops etc. The Irish electorate did not vote for SF because of UI they wanted housing, better health and so on.
On many of these things SF failed miserably on in NI. The most basic searches confirm this.

Where did I say the vote was for a UI specifically? Did SF hide their UI aspirations from the voter? I seem to remember it being a key part of Mary Lou's contributions to the debates she took part in.

If SF have failed on the above in Northern Ireland then the electorate have the option of voting them out of the executive. Are they?

They deposed from government those who have failed in those areas down here though. Funny that...eh?

holyhead

SF are in a funny kind of middle ground. If they go into government with either FF/FG they may tick off some of their constituents. I'm not sure they get the numbers, TD wise to form a government of the left alone. If either FF/FG go into with SF then they lose credibility with their support base. Won't be shocked if their is another election.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How have they 'failed already' Mark...have you a looking glass? They haven't met yet.



It won't be a 'sell out' for me if SF give way on a carbon Tax nor if the Greens give way on implementing one, because I don't believe ANYONE of the 'manifesto's have redlines nor that they are anymore than glossy flim fam for the politically naive.


Let's see how the talks go.

It is actually an interesting situation.

The traditional Sinn Fein voter like yourself will only care if they push a united Ireland and really don't care if they break every other promise. The more recent Sinn Fein voter will get annoyed at them pushing for a united Ireland, especially if they are failing to deliver on every other promise.

The carbon tax one is the interesting point. Places like Wexford, Clare, Longford/Westmeath etc. elected Sinn Fein politicians because they were the only ones against the carbon tax. Rolling over to the Greens won't go down well.

Plumbthedepths

holyhead wrote: »

SF are in a funny kind of middle ground. If they go into government with either FF/FG they may tick off some of their constituents. I'm not sure they get the numbers, TD wise to form a government of the left alone. If either FF/FG go into with SF then they lose credibility with their support base. Won't be shocked if their is another election.

The numbers ain't there for a SF led government and many FF TD's have set their face against coalition with the Shinners. So it's either a FF/FG coalition with a.n.other party or face the electorate and explain why they walked off the pitch.

storker

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That is the essence of coalition and C&S. That is why 'manifesto's' were glossy brochures and wish lists.

If you knew anything about realpolitik, you would know that.

And of course, if they fail to form a government for not giving way on some of their policies, they'll get the blame for that too. The fanboys of business as usual are teeing themselves up for the no-lose scenario. I don't think this is just because of SF, though. If the SDs had won 37 seats I have no doubt that we'd be seeing the same sneering at the prospect of "improvement" and "change". Of course it being SF gives it that added edge.

It's illuminating to see the hostility to the idea of making ordinary peoples' lives better...

machaseh

blanch152 wrote: »

It is actually an interesting situation.

The traditional Sinn Fein voter like yourself will only care if they push a united Ireland and really don't care if they break every other promise. The more recent Sinn Fein voter will get annoyed at them pushing for a united Ireland, especially if they are failing to deliver on every other promise.

The carbon tax one is the interesting point. Places like Wexford, Clare, Longford/Westmeath etc. elected Sinn Fein politicians because they were the only ones against the carbon tax. Rolling over to the Greens won't go down well.

People from my generation often do not care much about United Ireland, even if they did vote Sinn Fein this time around. I am personally not Irish but I care more about it than most of the Irish people I know. Most of the Irish people of my generation that I know are more like ' what use is it, the Brits and people who want to be British will still remain in Ireland even if it unifies'. Yet I have never met anyone who would be OPPOSED to a United Ireland per se. It's just not as big of a deal for the current generation. If NI wants to join Ireland then they can do that, but if they won't they won't.

As for domestic policies within what is now Northern Ireland, I personally don't give a sh1te nor would any Irish people of my generation (unless they happen to have a lot of family there). Why would they? Most of them have never even so much as visited Northern Ireland, it is far away, it is none of their concern. And once Ireland unifies, everything will be under the Republic government so internal Northern Ireland affairs will become mostly irrelevant.

Of course a post unification Ireland would face new political challenges (Imagine Arlene in the Dail hah) but that is none of our concern right now.

FrancieBrady

storker wrote: »

And of course, if they fail to form a government for not giving way on some of their policies, they'll get the blame for that too. The fanboys of business as usual are teeing themselves up for the no-lose scenario. I don't think this is just because of SF, though. If the SDs had won 37 seats I have no doubt that we'd be seeing the same sneering at the prospect of "improvement" and "change". Of course it being SF gives it that added edge.

It's illuminating to see the hostility to the idea of making ordinary peoples' lives better...

gormdubh seems to think that voters only had a duty to review the history of ONE party.

The FACT is that the 'voter' looked at the history of all the parties and this time said 'We'll try this one'.
The incumbent was relegated into 3rd choice for the first time ever (I think) in the history of the state. Well done Leo!

shesty

shesty wrote: »

They are one and the same.Anyone who knows their history knows that.SF are the public face of the IRA.

Their politicians stepped out of line (in their eyes), and in step the "dissident republicans" to remind them what their cause is (and who is boss.)

We really want this governing the country?

On a side note, I am very curious to see how the Gov make-up will happen.Numbers don't seem to be there - sensing a certain reluctance among left-leaning parties to be seen going into government with SF. Can't blame them really, but they are all damned if they do and damned if they don't.

The same things were said about FF when they were first becoming a threat to the then established parties, so much so that in 1932 they arrived at Leinster house armed.

markodaly

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Might be a similar pledge to FG's to abolish the USC quickly dropped after they formed government in 2016.

Minority government. USC was kept in at the behest of FF.

SF will know about 'promises' now that they are vying for government

machaseh

I would personally just designate certain majority-loyalist constituencies as 'Ulster Autonomous zones', with their own little regional parliament (the one in belfast possibly), an exemption to the Irish language which they so detest for whatever reason, and if they want to ban all sorts of progressive things in there and wave their union jacks then they can do that.

The rest of Northern Ireland can then just join the Republic just like the rest of it.

storker

FrancieBrady wrote: »

gormdubh seems to think that voters only had a duty to review the history of ONE party.

The FACT is that the 'voter' looked at the history of all the parties and this time said 'We'll try this one'.
The incumbent was relegated into 3rd choice for the first time ever (I think) in the history of the state. Well done Leo!

It's amusing to see the levels of almost-apoplectic fury at this result. I'm delighted to have helped cause it with my 4th SF preference (even though I suppose it probably went elsewhere). I don't think I've ever cast a general election vote that appears to have made such a difference.

Yes I know the proof of the pudding is in the eating but I'm prepared to reserve judgement and see what actually happens rather than predict either the Ten Plagues of Egypt on the one hand or Eiretopia on the other.