What have we come to

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why would I have to explain it? I voted for SF, I am not a member.
And I ACCEPT that political parties make mistakes - do things for various reasons - and may not ALWAYS do what I want them to do.

So you ignore the fact that the SDLP called SF out on giving social welfare to WM and supporting welfare cuts because you are not a member?

That is your argument - seriously? - you can do better than that.
I suppose it gets you out of answering the question.

Here is SF's take on things, just to show you that there is in politics 2 sides to a story, as in life.

https://www.sinnfein.ie/files/2015/Welfare_the_facts_SF.pdf

Now you give me SF's take on things as a retort which is naturally propagandist in tone completely at odds with what they actually did in reality.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/sinn-f%C3%A9in-under-fire-over-welfare-cuts-move-1.2435441



The reality on the ground - (from the article I linked)

"Sinn Féin has been attacked in the Northern Assembly for supporting a motion handing over responsibility for welfare cuts to Westminster rather than to Stormont.


The DUP and Sinn Féin had sufficient numbers in the Assembly to push through a legislative consent motion that allows Westminster, instead of the Northern Executive, to legislate for British government welfare reform.

The SDLP, in particular, complained that Sinn Féin, by endorsing the motion, was diluting devolution and handing back some powers to Westminster.

“Only a matter of weeks ago, Sinn Féin would have described this as a huge, serious mistake but now Sinn Féin is doing Tory austerity – and in spades,” said SDLP deputy leader Fearghal McKinney."


By signing up to welfare changes, the party is likely to be accused of supporting austerity in Northern Ireland but opposing it in the Republic.

By the way, I am not getting into a debate on whether they are right or wrong. Just pointing out the existence of 2 points of view.
Well, again. That is an 'just your opinion man'.

BTW, The 'troubles' as you quaintly call them are in the distance. 24 yrs, to be exact.

Fair enough if you want to believe a SF pamphlet or an actual unbiased report of what happened in Stormont re-social welfare cuts that is your prerogative.

As for quaintly reffering to 'the troubles' as 'the troubles' is that not the term used by the majority in Ireland and NI? Or would you prefer me to call it 'the struggle' ?

Also as referring to .'the troubles' as in the distance at 24 years ago. There have been many other instances that have raised questions following thier official end. Not least Paul Quinn's murder in 2007 which was 13 years ago.
Yet FF etc are blamed for the economic crash in Ireland 12 years ago. Yet many will not let them forget about that!
Yet another contradiction and paradox.

Where did I say the vote was for a UI specifically? Did SF hide their UI aspirations from the voter? I seem to remember it being a key part of Mary Lou's contributions to the debates she took part in.

Nowhere, I was merely making the point that people in the ROI voted for SF secondary policies, not thier main raison d'être a UI

If SF have failed on the above in Northern Ireland then the electorate have the option of voting them out of the executive. Are they?

They deposed from government those who have failed in those areas down here though. Funny that...eh?

It is not odd at all really.
Because there is a loyalty to the established party with over 20 years of unbroken SF rule. FF had that to an extent back in the day in the ROI.

Also as you pointed out yourself NI is a 'special entity' many there would keep SF in no matter what they did if there was any hope of a UI - border poll etc.

FrancieBrady

I said just before we voted...whatever happens, things are changed fundamentally in the body politic going forward.

Anyone who voted for change needs to take a bow IMO.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

So you ignore the fact that the SDLP called SF out on giving social welfare to WM and supporting welfare cuts because you are not a member?

That is your argument - seriously? - you can do better than that.
I suppose it gets you out of answering the question.




Now you give me SF's take on things as a retort which is naturally propagandist in tone completely at odds with what they actually did in reality.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/sinn-f%C3%A9in-under-fire-over-welfare-cuts-move-1.2435441

"Sinn Féin has been attacked in the Northern Assembly for supporting a motion handing over responsibility for welfare cuts to Westminster rather than to Stormont.


Sinn Féin has been attacked in the Northern Assembly for supporting a motion handing over responsibility for welfare cuts to Westminster rather than to Stormont.

The reality on the ground - (from the article I linked)

The DUP and Sinn Féin had sufficient numbers in the Assembly to push through a legislative consent motion that allows Westminster, instead of the Northern Executive, to legislate for British government welfare reform.

The SDLP, in particular, complained that Sinn Féin, by endorsing the motion, was diluting devolution and handing back some powers to Westminster.

“Only a matter of weeks ago, Sinn Féin would have described this as a huge, serious mistake but now Sinn Féin is doing Tory austerity – and in spades,” said SDLP deputy leader Fearghal McKinney."


By signing up to welfare changes, the party is likely to be accused of supporting austerity in Northern Ireland but opposing it in the Republic.[/B]







Fair enough if you want to believe a SF pamphlet or an actual unbiased report of what happened in Stormont re-social welfare cuts that is your prerogative.

So it's...don't listen to SF's side because that is party propaganda...here, listen to the SDLP's take on it, because that isn't propaganda.

As for quaintly reffering to 'the troubles' as 'the troubles' is that not the term used by the majority in Ireland and NI? Or would you prefer me to call it 'the struggle' ?

The 'troubles' originates from a British centric view that the Irish problem is a troublesome problem over there in one of our dominions.
It was a bloody and intractable conflict/war that lasted almost 40 years this time.

Also as referring to .'the troubles' as in the distance at 24 years ago There have been many other instances that have raised questions following thier official end. Not least Paul Quinn's murder in 2007 which was 13 years ago.
Yet FF etc are blamed for the economic crash in Ireland 12 years ago. Yet many will not let them forget about that!
Yet another contradiction and paradox.

You will have to show us where SF are implicated in the murder of Paul Quinn.

Nowhere I was merely making the point that people in the ROI voted for SF secondary policies, not thier main raison d'être a UI

How do you know this? As I said, MLMD said that a UI and preparing for it is a key point of what they intend to do, several times in the debates.

It is not odd at all really.
Because there is a loyalty to the established party with over 20 years of unbroken SF rule. FF had that to an extent back in the day in the ROI.

Also as you pointed out yourself NI is a 'special entity' many there would keep SF in no matter what they did if there was any hope of a UI - border poll etc.

Jesus. I don't know where to begin with that one.

omega man

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I said just before we voted...whatever happens, things are changed fundamentally in the body politic going forward.

Anyone who voted for change needs to take a bow IMO.

Where is this change though?
SF will struggle to pull together a left coalition and then they’ll need to approach FF.
I thought no one wanted FF or FG in power? I’m confused....

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I said just before we voted...whatever happens, things are changed fundamentally in the body politic going forward.

Anyone who voted for change needs to take a bow IMO.

It is funny that one word is the whole reason the bluff one fifth succeeded.
Sure a change is as good as a rest?

I think most people who voted SF and were new voters, Will not be taking a bow they will have thier hands on thier eyes with some of the SF antics that others see.
They will have thier fingers in thier ears for some of the SF antics that others hear.

And finally they will have the excuses made for any promises that SF fail to deliver. Far from taking a bow, they should duck and run for cover.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It is funny that one word is the whole reason the bluff one fifth succeeded.
Sure a change is as good as a rest?

I think most people who voted SF and were new voters, Will not be taking a bow they will have thier hands on thier eyes with some of the SF antics that others see.
They will have thier fingers in thier ears for some of the SF antics that others hear.

And finally they will have the excuses made for any promises that SF fail to deliver. Far from taking a bow, they should duck and run for cover.

To be perfectly honest I think those who voted for SF and others, and those who voted left and transferred left are having a right old laugh at the antics of FF and FG support.

I think they (FF and FG support) are shocked to the core that the electorate made that very clear and deliberate decision tbh.

Things will never be the same again here. FF and FG will change too, because they know now they have to.

FrancieBrady

Leo, busy making excuses.

Mr Varadkar explained that he did not have the opportunity while Taoiseach to modernise and reform the party as he was busy with the work of Government and State, so he now relishes the opportunity to do that.

Quite an extraordinary statement really, when you think about it.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0212/1114778-varadkar-election/?fbclid=IwAR3u9k-iW5bKegbBTCNfZ5arSRoWZxvve2-POMPsvs6Qn_UpmRBpTehAqV0

gormdubhgorm

omega man wrote: »

Where is this change though?
SF will struggle to pull together a left coalition and then they’ll need to approach FF.
I thought no one wanted FF or FG in power? I’m confused....

Exactly all 'the left' do not seem to want to be associated with SF

The main traditional parties said no to SF
M Martin, B Howlin, L Varadkar

The SD and the Greens have not said no. But have no said yes either. Plus as others have pointed out Green tax hikes v SF how will that end. And more importantly look? Most of Rural ireland do not like the Greens and most of working class Dublin do not like the Greens.

After all is said and done FF and FG appear the most likely collation this time and with xyz etc.
That would be truly historic the civil war parties letting bygones be bygones

The irony is that if all these new SF voters were bothered about the local elections and not just hype voters - SF would not have taken a hammering in them. In turn SF would have ran more candidates as a result which could have made SF the largest party. Letting them call the shots, sorry I mean make the calls.

Council elections not jazzy enough?

shesty

holyhead wrote: »

SF are in a funny kind of middle ground. If they go into government with either FF/FG they may tick off some of their constituents. I'm not sure they get the numbers, TD wise to form a government of the left alone. If either FF/FG go into with SF then they lose credibility with their support base. Won't be shocked if their is another election.

They are, it has created an interesting conundrum.People are hugely focused on SF/FF/FG but what is beginning to become clear is that some of the smaller votes -Independents, the Greens, etc-are not exactly expressing huge interest in being in government with SF.They are hamstrung too really, they probably know they will lose votes for going in with SF in addition to being seen as having played a part in any potential damage that might be done with a SF government.

On the other hand, for FF and FG to plough on and essentially ignore SF and through that, igore the fact that a large vote came through for change (whether the change was actually.meant to be SF or not), seems like political suicide for them too - to me anyway.

Going for another election could well mean SF running more candidates and winning a majority, just because people are annoyed at being asked again....

I suppose the biggest question is can the risk be taken to allow SF in and hope to god they cause minimal damage (or they are forced to renege on their promises once the Dept of Finance get involved) before they get removed.It's a big risk.

Interesting times.

storker

omega man wrote: »

Where is this change though?
SF will struggle to pull together a left coalition and then they’ll need to approach FF.
I thought no one wanted FF or FG in power? I’m confused....

FF or FG in government is not the ideal, but FF or FG with their worst instincts tempered by SF is acceptable. This has never happened before, so there's your change. Hopefully it will result in more citizen-centred government, so there's another change.

I'm not sure why this is so confusing...

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Exactly all 'the left' do not seem to want to be associated with SF

The main traditional parties said no to SF
M Martin, B Howlin, L Varadkar

The SD and the Greens have not said no. But have no said yes either. Plus as others have pointed out Green tax hikes v SF how will that end. And more importantly look? Most of Rural ireland do not like the Greens and most of working class Dublin do not like the Greens.

After all is said and done FF and FG appear the most likely collation this time and with xyz etc.
That would be truly historic the civil war parties letting bygones be bygones

The irony is that if all these new SF voters were bothered about the local elections and not just hype voters - SF would not have taken a hammering in them. In turn SF would have ran more candidates as a result which could have made SF the largest party. Letting them call the shots, sorry I mean make the calls.

Council elections not jazzy enough?

And that is all fair enough.
So SF fail to construct a government. The oppurtunity passes to FF and FG to create a very obvious government which was formed before. If they pass on doing that, there is no option but to go back to the electorate and see what they think.

That is democracy working and functioning perfectly.

FrancieBrady

storker wrote: »

FF or FG in government is not the ideal, but FF or FG with their worst instincts tempered by SF is acceptable. This has never happened before, so there's your change. Hopefully it will result in more citizen-centred government, so there's another change.

I'm not sure why this is so confusing...

+ Leo has accepted his FG needs reform and modernisation. More change that wouldn't have happened had we bothered them with more of that auld governing nuisance.

storker

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Leo, busy making excuses.



Quite an extraordinary statement really, when you think about it.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0212/1114778-varadkar-election/?fbclid=IwAR3u9k-iW5bKegbBTCNfZ5arSRoWZxvve2-POMPsvs6Qn_UpmRBpTehAqV0

You shouldn't be so hard on him. He and Inda only had...er...nine years...

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

To be perfectly honest I think those who voted for SF and others, and those who voted left and transferred left are having a right old laugh at the antics of FF and FG support.

I think they (FF and FG support) are shocked to the core that the electorate made that very clear and deliberate decision tbh.

Things will never be the same again here. FF and FG will change too, because they know now they have to.

They said the same in 1997 when Labour were at an all time high similar to SF.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Irish_general_election

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Irish_general_election

Look how that worked out, plus labour had no para baggage unlike SF and still got hammered over the years.

The paramilitary issue and shadows of gunmen - moral question is the whole reason that there is this standoff. It is just another layer SF have made for themselves.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Leo, busy making excuses.



Quite an extraordinary statement really, when you think about it.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0212/1114778-varadkar-election/?fbclid=IwAR3u9k-iW5bKegbBTCNfZ5arSRoWZxvve2-POMPsvs6Qn_UpmRBpTehAqV0

Why are you so worried about what Fine Gael and Varadkar are doing?

One minute you are consigning them to the dustbin of history, the next you are following articles about them in the media. Is there a little bit of insecurity there?

Brian?

Kason Fancy Coal wrote: »

New York Times headline: "Sinn Fein on Threshold: Party With Old I.R.A. Ties Soars in Irish Election."

The article highlights Sinn Fein's ties to sectarian violence as well as its anti-business platform.

These are not exactly the kinds of headlines you want multinational CEOs reading (in other words, the people who make the investment decisions that provide the jobs that generate the income for the socialists to tax). It also discredits Ireland internationally that a quarter of the electorate are willing to cast votes for a party plagued by its ongoing ties to terrorist atrocities.

That’s absolute nonsense. Any CEO who makes investment decisions based on a single election in a country should be sacked. For someone who claims to know so much about business, this is a ridiculous remark.

SF are not “plagued by its ongoing ties to terrorists atrocities”. The PIRA doesn’t exist anymore, except in the heads of SF’s opposition.

What exactly is “anti business” anyway? Closing tax loopholes?

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

They said the same in 1997 when Labour were at an all time high similar to SF.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Irish_general_election

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Irish_general_election

Look how that worked out, plus labour had no para baggage unlike SF and still got hammered over the years.

The paramilitary issue and shadows of gunmen - moral question is the whole reason that there is this standoff. It is just another layer SF have made for themselves.

Did you miss that fact in another post? FF actually came to the Dáil 'armed' at one point.
24 years after that...they were just another political party.

Duke of Url

FINE Gael now belongs on the Opposition benches while Sinn Féin must form a government capable of honouring their “remarkable promises” to the electorate, Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has said.

And he’s right.

FF should do exactly the same.

gormdubhgorm

storker wrote: »

You shouldn't be so hard on him. He and Inda only had...er...nine years...

Nine years is a phenomenal time in government and it was some endorsement by the electorate. That is just under half the time SF have in NI. But they have the safety net of 'power sharing'.

In NI those 20 plus years SF have achieved less on the very issues Leo was blamed for, yet somehow they will suddenly be the forces for change in the ROI?

New face I suppose and hype. I don't remember as much hype over a party since Blair's 'new labour' in the UK.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Why are you so worried about what Fine Gael and Varadkar are doing?

One minute you are consigning them to the dustbin of history, the next you are following articles about them in the media. Is there a little bit of insecurity there?

blanch, I was the one on here telling all those 'consigning FF to dustbin' in 2011 that they were talking rubbish, that FF would be back.

I have never consigned FG to any dustbin. STOP telling lies.

And why would I not be allowed comment on FG? Are you indulging in a little bit of your own Section 32ing?

FrancieBrady

Duke of Url wrote: »

FINE Gael now belongs on the Opposition benches while Sinn Féin must form a government capable of honouring their “remarkable promises” to the electorate, Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has said.

And he’s right.

FF should do exactly the same.

Did Leo not also make 'promises' to the 22% who voted for him? They didn't vote for FG to go into opposition.

Don't be naive...Leo is playing the political game just like all the rest of them are.

GreenandRed

blanch152 wrote: »

Why are you so worried about what Fine Gael and Varadkar are doing?

One minute you are consigning them to the dustbin of history, the next you are following articles about them in the media. Is there a little bit of insecurity there?

They backed the wrong man when they chose Leo to be leader. Then they went too far with the social media spin without the substance. Not so much Leo's fault as whoever is advising them on PR. Would never have happened on Frank Flannery's watch, he knows the electorate within and outside the Pale.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Did you miss that fact in another post? FF actually came to the Dáil 'armed' at one point.
24 years after that...they were just another political party.

Oh I realise that but according to you history stopped in 1998? The troubles ended. You cannot have it both ways. Again the SF voter the hypocrisy wrapped in a contradiction.
But suddenly you want to go back further than 1998?

How many of the current SF TD's north and south were parts of a subversive organisation, who not only wanted to get the Brits out? But not only that did not recognise the legitimacy of WM or the Dail at one time or another?

Which is why Michelle O'Neill is very careful to use words like strategy when condemning those who want to kill her and Mr Kelly.

In other words "I appreciate the armed struggle lads, but don't shoot us now is not the time."

Plumbthedepths

markodaly wrote: »

Minority government. USC was kept in at the behest of FF.

Irrelevant nonsense, FG made a promise and renaged but yet some supporters of FG feel others have to be held to a higher standard. You couldn't make it up.

I see sheep

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

They said the same in 1997 when Labour were at an all time high similar to SF.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Irish_general_election

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Irish_general_election

Look how that worked out, plus labour had no para baggage unlike SF and still got hammered over the years.

The paramilitary issue and shadows of gunmen - moral question is the whole reason that there is this standoff. It is just another layer SF have made for themselves.

The popularity of Corbyn's polices in 2017 forced the Tories to borrow lots of them and veer economically left in December's election.

Tories are considering a mansion tax, they're already nationalised Northern Rail, they've done a u-turn on national living wage, and are considering axing pension tax relief for higher earners in next month's Budget.

So much so that Johnson's mouthpiece has gone after them - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/half-million-face-double-taxation-radical-pension-tax-plan/?li_source=LI&li_medium=li-recommendation-widget

FG will do the same and veer left as they can see that is the way the wind is blowing.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Oh I realise that but according to you history stopped in 1998? The troubles ended. You cannot have it both ways. Again the SF voter the hypocrisy wrapped in a contradiction.
But suddenly you want to go back further than 1998?

What are you on about?

Why don't you stop with the lies there too gormdubh. We know you are angry. No need to stoop to lies.

How many of the current SF TD's north and south were parts of a subversive organisation who not only wanted to get the Brits out? But not only that did not recognise the legitimacy of WM or the Dail at one time or another?

I don't know. I didn't vote for the SF of the past, I voted for the SF that presented themselves for this election, as those who voted for FF at this election did not vote for the FF that turned up 'armed' to the Dáil.


Are you getting it yet gormdubh? I mean the attempt to drag up victims and the past failed pretty spectacularly don't you think? You maybe should take Leo's lead here and 'reform' your stance.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And that is all fair enough.
So SF fail to construct a government. The oppurtunity passes to FF and FG to create a very obvious government which was formed before. If they pass on doing that, there is no option but to go back to the electorate and see what they think.

That is democracy working and functioning perfectly.

No really because in a democracy many can vote in ignorance, which has been proven time and time again throughout history.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Did Leo not also make 'promises' to the 22% who voted for him? They didn't vote for FG to go into opposition.

Don't be naive...Leo is playing the political game just like all the rest of them are.

I must say that I am enjoying the desperate spinning from Sinn Fein. They know that their tax policies would spook the markets and have no chance of raising the revenue promised and they also know that there was a big hole anyway in their numbers. They never expected to be in this position and the challenge of actual delivery is something that they didn't expect to face. It is one thing for Eoin O'Broin to sit in a tv studio and explain how he will do things differently, it is another to actually do it.

I was very interested in that chap from Finance last night who explained that the Sinn Fein idea of building 100,000 homes on State land doesn't work if there isn't enough State land.

So Sinn Fein are trying to spin now that FF and FG should play their part. Posters on here who have spent years shouting and screaming that "FFG" as they call it should be thrown out, are desperately saying that they have to step up. It is laughable and pathetic.

Ush1

Brian? wrote: »

That’s absolute nonsense. Any CEO who makes investment decisions based on a single election in a country should be sacked. For someone who claims to know so much about business, this is a ridiculous remark.

SF are not “plagued by its ongoing ties to terrorists atrocities”. The PIRA doesn’t exist anymore, except in the heads of SF’s opposition.

What exactly is “anti business” anyway? Closing tax loopholes?

It's not just CEOs, it's investors. Look at the Corona virus, markets are effected by sentiment. Where do you think CEOs and investors get their news, true or otherwise?

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

No really because in a democracy many can vote in ignorance, which has been proven time and time again throughout history.

Well I am sure you will be out with your 'twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was, to be used as evidence against' Sinn Fein in the event of a new election. Good luck with that.