What have we come to

Cupatae

Bill 2.0 wrote: »

You kill the enemies of your state, it's a fairly basic concept.


In the NI context the enemies of the state were the dip****s who were willing to murder people because they wanted to be Irish whilst living in Northern Ireland, which is part of the UK.


They could have easily left to go live in Ireland but they decided to murder people instead and NI is still part of the UK despite their "armed struggle".

I actually can't tell if you are trolling with that post or not

Bill 2.0

Cupatae wrote: »

I actually can't tell if you are trolling with that post or not

I'm not.


There was no wall stopping these people from leaving and the grown-ups who were in charge would have only been delighted to see them **** off but they decided that murder was their only recourse.


The Republic doesn't want NI because it is full of borderline retarded, dangerous idiots who we have zero in common with.


3 years without a government and it made zero difference because the UK is the responsible adult in the room that keeps the place from reverting to the stone age.

gormdubhgorm

holyhead wrote: »

I'm not able to share the link but it is worth reading a blog my Shane Paul O'Doherty entitled "Mary Lou MacDonald-No Links To The Ira?". If you punch it into google it will come up as the first link to click on.
Very interesting reading. I appreciate that O'Doherty is very much anti SF having once been in the IRA. But having been on the inside he has a better idea than most how SF/IRA operate.

I found it -

https://irishpeaceprocess.blog/2019/02/19/mary-lou-mcdonald-no-links-to-the-ira/

Obviously the author does have an axe to grind with SF/IRA. But if you break the observations down he makes very valid points.

Plus some of those images would be comical, if they were not so serious.

H block escape night 10 quid in!



I honesttly thought it was a photo-shopped skit

Then it turns out it was a real thing only two years ago!


https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Mv6xzBL4ts0J:https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/unionist-anger-at-republican-h-block-escape-night-immoral-attempt-to-profit-from-violence-36786044.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie


This from the party who want to forget the past and move on....during the ROI election

The fact that Shane Doherty -
(in the Mary Lou McDonald – No Links to the IRA? - article)
Mentions a number of these events, and that someone has to manage all this IRA money. Laying down arms but not destroying the structure already there, makes logical sense.

It is interesting that Dessie Ellis is classed as untouchable with his 90k, and this was proven only recently when Mary Lou did not publicly rebuke him for his election antics.
--

Doherty does make many good points in the article, the basic grooming of Mary Lou to be the more acceptable face of the outfit for the ROI.

I noticed that myself it was obvious to anyone watching SF over the last few decades.
It has always seemed transparent to me (for the last few years) what the plan was once they started the feminisation of SF and the dual strategy two female leaders. One a face for NI and respectable to the electorate, and the same for the ROI. Basically a simple re-branding of SF make them look a bit fluffier, friendly.

Even my own elderly mother who is an avid watcher of Virgin Media and politics shows - has claimed she thinks "xyz SF girl is 'good' even though she is with SF!" (says she):D

On the other hand she would visibly recoil when she saw the more stereotypical type of SF man like O'Snodaigh. So it clearly is working at all levels.

It might be ruined occasionally by an O'Snodaigh, Dessie Eillis or David Cullinane. But by and large the strategy is sound.

I have to give it too SF they have brass necks, and are great marketeers they really know how to develop a brand and play it from all levels.

Make the present day talk fluffy and light for the ROI - smiles, change etc rarely mention the UI.

While in NI have constant reminders of the past.
How the struggle was 'won' etc so it distracts from the austerity measures SF imposed in NI.

The two different jurisdictions are also handy as there is a disconnect between the ROI and NI. It is possible for SF to literally get away with murder, as few of the Irish electorate care about them up there in the ROI.

Even Mary Lou herself was at pains to point out the election is not in NI it is in the ROI - hoping people stop digging and that convenient partition line is drawn. And that she is from Dublin etc.

You have to admire the strategy and how it worked.

Tony EH

Bill 2.0 wrote: »

In a stunning turn of events, the way to put the lid back on was to sit around a table and talk to each other like normal human beings.

You do know that this wouldn't have happened had it not been for the IRA campaign or the Shinners getting involved in dialogue.

James Brown

quokula wrote: »

Most people would take a strong economy and high employment as signs that their ideas do work?

Point is everything they say is great doesn't seem to help as crises get worse, but they didn't amend it or try change they just kept going.
A strong economy didn't help. With that and lots of jobs we should not be in a series of worsening crises.

James Brown

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I found it -

https://irishpeaceprocess.blog/2019/02/19/mary-lou-mcdonald-no-links-to-the-ira/

Obviously the author does have an axe to grind with SF/IRA. But if you break the observations down he makes very valid points.

Plus some of those images would be comical, if they were not so serious.

H block escape night 10 quid in!



I honesttly thought it was a photo-shopped skit

Then it turns out it was a real thing only two years ago!


https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Mv6xzBL4ts0J:https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/unionist-anger-at-republican-h-block-escape-night-immoral-attempt-to-profit-from-violence-36786044.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie


This from the party who want to forget the past and move on....during the ROI election

The fact that Shane Doherty -
(in the Mary Lou McDonald – No Links to the IRA? - article)
Mentions a number of these events, and that someone has to manage all this IRA money. Laying down arms but not destroying the structure already there, makes logical sense.

It is interesting that Dessie Ellis is classed as untouchable with his 90k, and this was proven only recently when Mary Lou did not publicly rebuke him for his election antics.
--

Doherty does make many good points in the article, the basic grooming of Mary Lou to be the more acceptable face of the outfit for the ROI.

I noticed that myself it was obvious to anyone watching SF over the last few decades.
It has always seemed transparent to me (for the last few years) what the plan was once they started the feminisation of SF and the dual strategy two female leaders. One a face for NI and respectable to the electorate, and the same for the ROI. Basically a simple re-branding of SF make them look a bit fluffier, friendly.

Even my own elderly mother who is an avid watcher of Virgin Media and politics shows - has claimed she thinks "xyz SF girl is 'good' even though she is with SF!" (says she):D

On the other hand she would visibly recoil when she saw the more stereotypical type of SF man like O'Snodaigh. So it clearly is working at all levels.

It might be ruined occasionally by an O'Snodaigh, Dessie Eillis or David Cullinane. But by and large the strategy is sound.

I have to give it too SF they have brass necks, and are great marketeers they really know how to develop a brand and play it from all levels.

Make the present day talk fluffy and light for the ROI - smiles, change etc rarely mention the UI.

While in NI have constant reminders of the past.
How the struggle was 'won' etc so it distracts from the austerity measures SF imposed in NI.

The two different jurisdictions are also handy as there is a disconnect between the ROI and NI. It is possible for SF to literally get away with murder, as few of the Irish electorate care about them up there in the ROI.

Even Mary Lou herself was at pains to point out the election is not in NI it is in the ROI - hoping people stop digging and that convenient partition line is drawn. And that she is from Dublin etc.

You have to admire the strategy and how it worked.

Are you doing a one man show IRA retrospective?

lawrencesummers

The world is full of political parties that have their origins in conflict and wartime. South Africa, Spain, Jamaica etc etc.

Is it not time that SF are given the opportunity to establish themselves as a present day political party that are allowed to move on from their past while being cognizant of their history?

Sure some members have a difficult history, and they don’t help themselves by singing songs about the RA, but singing songs is a lot different to physical actions

Nelson Mandela was a terrorist for a long time by US standards. Almost half The founding fathers of the USA were slave owners. People change, political ideologies evolve.

I for one will judge SF on their policies and the delivery of them, not their past, their links to the past or the songs their people sing. Just their ability to govern should they be in that position.

holyhead

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I found it -

https://irishpeaceprocess.blog/2019/02/19/mary-lou-mcdonald-no-links-to-the-ira/

Obviously the author does have an axe to grind with SF/IRA. But if you break the observations down he makes very valid points.

Plus some of those images would be comical, if they were not so serious.

H block escape night 10 quid in!



I honesttly thought it was a photo-shopped skit

Then it turns out it was a real thing only two years ago!


https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Mv6xzBL4ts0J:https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/unionist-anger-at-republican-h-block-escape-night-immoral-attempt-to-profit-from-violence-36786044.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie


This from the party who want to forget the past and move on....during the ROI election

The fact that Shane Doherty -
(in the Mary Lou McDonald – No Links to the IRA? - article)
Mentions a number of these events, and that someone has to manage all this IRA money. Laying down arms but not destroying the structure already there, makes logical sense.

It is interesting that Dessie Ellis is classed as untouchable with his 90k, and this was proven only recently when Mary Lou did not publicly rebuke him for his election antics.
--

Doherty does make many good points in the article, the basic grooming of Mary Lou to be the more acceptable face of the outfit for the ROI.

I noticed that myself it was obvious to anyone watching SF over the last few decades.
It has always seemed transparent to me (for the last few years) what the plan was once they started the feminisation of SF and the dual strategy two female leaders. One a face for NI and respectable to the electorate, and the same for the ROI. Basically a simple re-branding of SF make them look a bit fluffier, friendly.

Even my own elderly mother who is an avid watcher of Virgin Media and politics shows - has claimed she thinks "xyz SF girl is 'good' even though she is with SF!" (says she):D

On the other hand she would visibly recoil when she saw the more stereotypical type of SF man like O'Snodaigh. So it clearly is working at all levels.

It might be ruined occasionally by an O'Snodaigh, Dessie Eillis or David Cullinane. But by and large the strategy is sound.

I have to give it too SF they have brass necks, and are great marketeers they really know how to develop a brand and play it from all levels.

Make the present day talk fluffy and light for the ROI - smiles, change etc rarely mention the UI.

While in NI have constant reminders of the past.
How the struggle was 'won' etc so it distracts from the austerity measures SF imposed in NI.

The two different jurisdictions are also handy as there is a disconnect between the ROI and NI. It is possible for SF to literally get away with murder, as few of the Irish electorate care about them up there in the ROI.

Even Mary Lou herself was at pains to point out the election is not in NI it is in the ROI - hoping people stop digging and that convenient partition line is drawn. And that she is from Dublin etc.

You have to admire the strategy and how it worked.

I find his blog really interesting. He knows how the SF/IRA works more than most. I find the blog makes you think about things in a different light. Yes he has an axe to grind but he makes good points in his blogs. Glad you found it!

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Astonshing revisionism there Francie, even from you.

Hume didnt murder or order the murder of anyone. The lid came off because some men wanted to play soldier for 'Ireland's Freedom'.

The dangers of not knowing your history.

You know that Hume's idea of taking people out onto the streets was the key act that brought the decades of oppression, gerrymandering and inequality to the boil?

When you bring something to the boil...the lid generally comes off.

Hume and the people he led were the problem in NI in the 60's just as much as the Unionists were. Add in criminally inept British and Irish governments and you had a heady mix. The IRA were not interested and were almost defunct in the early to middle 60's.
What would have happened had Hume listened to his many detractors and stayed off the streets?
When you let the lid come off, it can sadly morph into something else and in Ireland's case, some identified the root cause of the problem as partition (and I cannot argue with them nor as it happens could John Hume) and a continued occupation of this island. When Hume recognised that all his initiatives were never going to work...Sunningdale - The Anglo Irish Forum etc. there is NO DOUBT he stepped up to the plate and initiated the talks that led to the a solution. And he should forever be lionised for his part in that. (Mallon, McGrady and the rest of the SDLP forced him to do it as a solo run to 'protect the party BTW)

Stop trying to sanitise people. It does your argument no favours.

Brendan Bendar

Zzzzzzzzzzzz

It’s 2020 lads, let’s not let this thread develope into the usual morass.

History forum is >. Or is it <

holyhead

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The dangers of not knowing your history.

You know that Hume's idea of taking people out onto the streets was the key act that brought the decades of oppression, gerrymandering and inequality to the boil?

When you bring something to the boil...the lid generally comes off.

Hume and the people he led were the problem in NI in the 60's just as much as the Unionists were. Add in criminally inept British and Irish governments and you had a heady mix. The IRA were not interested and were almost defunct in the early to middle 60's.
What would have happened had Hume listened to his many detractors and stayed off the streets?
When you let the lid come off, it can sadly morph into something else and in Ireland's case, some identified the root cause of the problem as partition (and I cannot argue with them nor as it happens could John Hume) and a continued occupation of this island. When Hume recognised that all his initiatives were never going to work...Sunningdale - The Anglo Irish Forum etc. there is NO DOUBT he stepped up to the plate and initiated the talks that led to the a solution. And he should forever be lionised for his part in that. (Mallon, McGrady and the rest of the SDLP forced him to do it as a solo run to 'protect the party BTW)

Stop trying to sanitise people. It does your argument no favours.

Are you seriously blaming John Hume for the misery that unfolded in N.I. for quarter of a century? Surely this is a leg pull??

gormdubhgorm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Are you doing a one man show IRA retrospective?

It is what Shane Doherty did he laid everything out plainly.

I just gave my take on it.

I feel you do not understand the thread and the question posed.

Here is the OP's first post as a reminder.

billyhead wrote: »

Sinn Fein topping the polls in many constituencies. I believe in democracy but too vote this crowd in as your number 1

FrancieBrady

holyhead wrote: »

Are you seriously blaming John Hume for the misery that unfolded in N.I. for quarter of a century? Surely this is a leg pull??

No, catch yourself on. He played a part in what happened though, just like many others did. When you take to the streets your intention is to 'confront' and bring things to a head. Hume was to the forefront of that movement so he played his part. Sanitise it all you want.

And in this case Brendan is right. It is off topic.

gormdubhgorm

holyhead wrote: »

I find his blog really interesting. He knows how the SF/IRA works more than most. I find the blog makes you think about things in a different light. Yes he has an axe to grind but he makes good points in his blogs. Glad you found it!

It was a good read - but it should not be called 'has Mary Lou any links with the IRA?'.

It should be called 'questions SF are too afraid to answer'. Even if you look at it from a perspective of former leaders advising and directing the current crop, there is are questions.

The sage wisdom of the old guard is never forgotten. Long after Kevin Heffernan retired from Dublin management he was the unofficial guardian/adviser of Dublin Gaelic football. He was even asked back from retirement in 79 it was that easy!

But in a SF context, we are naively expected to believe that the IRA army council is not still there in at least an 'advisory' capacity.

Or at most having the final call on matters of policy, who runs for seats for the party, internal disciplinary matters, PR, strategy etc, finances, fundraising in America etc.

After all, Gerry Adams is on record for saying he was NOT a member of the IRA but he would NEVER disassociate himself from it.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No, catch yourself on.

I used to hear this Ulster phrase all the time on the comedy 'Give my head some peace'

Oh the memories.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I used to hear this Ulster phrase all the time on the comedy 'Give my head some peace'

Oh the memories.

Common parlance in these parts.

One of the most frustrating things about this election is the amount of people that think that things can’t get any worse, as if we are living in some third world country.

The country is near to full employment. We have lots of large multinational companies providing jobs. Shopping centres are packed every day. Pubs are buzzing. Nearly everybody has luxuries like broadband, satellite TV, Netflix, Spotify, smart phones. The economy is doing well. House prices and rent are showing signs of levelling off. Help to buy has helped many people buy new build A rated homes. Even the welfare is extremely generous! People are getting a Xmas bonus.

Of course we have issues in society, that will never change. But thinking it can’t get any worse..... that’s naive. It can always get way worse.

We don’t need the Celtic tiger back. I’d prefer slow and steady progress over boom and bust.

joseywhales

I think expectations are too high, like every person that needs a home should have a home, this has never been historically true and certainly not a home for just you and your family that passes building code standards. Be thankful you aren't living in a shed with an open sewer outside, polio and a 50% loss of your children which are too numerous to feed, lol

storker

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The dangers of not knowing your history.

You know that Hume's idea of taking people out onto the streets was the key act that brought the decades of oppression, gerrymandering and inequality to the boil?

And what caused him to take people out on the streets?

FrancieBrady

storker wrote: »

And what caused him to take people out on the streets?

Cupatae

Bill 2.0 wrote: »

.2% of the population living in state-funded hotel rooms waiting for their free forever homes and things costing money in one of the most wealthy countries in the world is apparently the worst thing ever.


We need more free stuff that "de rich" are going to pay for!

Wealth for who ? Tell me who's gonna be buying a decent house in Dublin ? Average Joe on a minimum hell even middle of the road job or is it de richz you talk about ?

It's like this mythical economic upturn that apparently only de rich can see at min.

I'd say those .2% are loving life living with there kids in a hotel room, they wouldn't change it if they could maybe they should try take a minimum wage job and work there way up to buy a house oooh **** that's rights child care + basic living would prob have them in a deficit ,

But ya carry on, cause it's all as clear cut and easy as you make it out to be... spoken like someone who never wanted for a thing in his life I'd say mammy and daddy paid ur car college and housed ya till, yeah got to ur hard earned easy life.

But ya Irelands fine everything is good nothing to see here.

PommieBast

tjhook wrote: »

Both FF and FG have said before the election that they wouldn't go into coalition with SF, so it's fair to assume that the voters who voted FF/FG voted with that knowledge.

I thought the No-To-SF was more Micheal Martin than FF as a whole. If FF-SF comes onto the agenda, he will have to go..

GreenandRed

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Nope, less than 3 years and out of government with less TDs than June 2017. Out polled by a Shinner. 5th count before he was deemed elected. Can't remember any other sitting Taoiseach failing to get elected on the first count.

I wonder if he ever genuinely regrets his 'people who get up early in the morning’ comment? For him it was well meaning, an attempt to display empathy, but for many it came across as condescending and showing a man who didn't seem to see beyond the pale, even if he did.

holyhead

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No, catch yourself on. He played a part in what happened though, just like many others did. When you take to the streets your intention is to 'confront' and bring things to a head. Hume was to the forefront of that movement so he played his part. Sanitise it all you want.

And in this case Brendan is right. It is off topic.

I don’t need to cop myself on thank you. John Hume was a man of peace and to somehow attach blame to him for the troubles is absurd.

Idbatterim

Bill 2.0 wrote: »

.2% of the population living in state-funded hotel rooms waiting for their free forever homes and things costing money in one of the most wealthy countries in the world is apparently the worst thing ever.


We need more free stuff that "de rich" are going to pay for!

the bloody irony, that it is people living in kips themselves or at home etc, paying for the hotels and free luxury accomodation in dundrum and we wonder why a lot of workers are screwed on housing?!

the top and companies may be taking the piss , they sure as hell can pay more. Why should the workers at the bottom on low to modest wages, be paying for this **** show, when they themselves are FCUKED?!

FrancieBrady

holyhead wrote: »

I don’t need to cop myself on thank you. John Hume was a man of peace and to somehow attach blame to him for the troubles is absurd.

If somebody cannot mention that 'John Hume played a part in the troubles beginning' then you do need to cop yourself on, to be honest.

holyhead

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If somebody cannot mention that 'John Hume played a part in the troubles beginning' then you do need to cop yourself on, to be honest.

You just don’t give up do you. If you can’t respect a fellow poster then don’t post!

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If somebody cannot mention that 'John Hume played a part in the troubles beginning' then you do need to cop yourself on, to be honest.

No he didn't, no more than any other victim of the SF/IRA campaign in the North.

Not surprised to see victim blaming.

I see sheep

Deleted User wrote: »

We don’t need the Celtic tiger back. I’d prefer slow and steady progress over boom and bust.

Why are you associating SF with boom and bust?

holyhead

How long can the impasse of no new government last until an election is triggered?