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A very good summation of a lot of people's feelings. Headline GDP figures aren't bankable for a hell of a lot of people.
Yes, I feel people will vote on what is applicable to their own situation. When do many families are unstable in housing - which is a very basic need - they will vote for whatever party will address this. Same as health. I suppose it is difficult for people to think in terms of the overall economy when they have no hope of owning a home and are paying extortionate rent every month.0 -
A very good summation of a lot of people's feelings. Headline GDP figures aren't bankable for a hell of a lot of people.
Have to agree too, obviously housing and house acquisition is the biggest issue of the lot.
Surely our own ‘rulers’ should be able to grab this by the throat and fix it, number 1,and market it number 2.
whatever govt. is in office after this, this issue must I say again,must, be tackled seriously.0 -
It's only about 1 in 5 people that rent in this country and that includes people paying a pittance of rent for social housing.
The media told you housing was a huge issue and you believeed it hook, line and sinker.
And roughly one in four people voted for Sinn Fein, which would easily match your figures if you include people who aren't renting, but are still living in their family home despite working good jobs because they can't afford to rent. It's clearly a big issue, to pretend otherwise is ridiculous.
I'm obviously only speaking for my own social circle here but it does include people from a wide variety of backgrounds, and the vast majority - including "D4" types from very wealthy families - are just sick of being asked to pay four figures in rent for shoeboxes, and infuriated by a government whose housing minister very smugly stated that young people should be happy about being asked to pay more and more for less and less.
It's fairly simple really - increasing the cost of living while not increasing average take home pay over several years is commonly known as "stagflation". Stagflation doesn't get picked up by macroeconomic indicators which is precisely why those who live in ivory towers and only see economic reality through graphs and numbers on paper as opposed to average individual human lives, tend not to understand it or even realise it's going on. That's why, for example, Enda Kenny was so surprised in 2016 when he went canvassing, and admitted in several interviews that he underestimated just how little the economic recovery was translating into making it easier for people to get by.
Stagflation has continued in recent years, which means that while macroeconomic factors look good, peoples' quality of life (particularly those who are not homeowners) has been declining. Most people my age have far less disposable income now than they did four or five years ago, due entirely to increases in the cost of living combined with stagnating incomes.
People would always be angry with a government who presided over a situation like this, to a degree, but FG essentially poured petrol onto the fire by having obnoxiously smug, arrogant assholes like Eoghan Murphy going around telling people that somehow the stagflation that they were experiencing was a good thing. That someone who was evicted from their €900 per month apartment with its own living room and kitchen after a lease of several years should be delighted that the government has given Bartra the go-ahead to build a block just around the corner which will charge €1,400 per month for studios that don't even have kitchen facilities. This is classic stagflation - things get more expensive and their quality goes down.
When you combine this with increases in utility bills and also the general increased cost of doing anything social because businesses have been forced to pass spiralling insurance costs on to their customers, you have a recipe for an absolutely miserable generation. Throw the perception that the government not only doesn't give a f*ck, but is actually happy about the situation and happy to take advantage of it (Maria Bailey and Josepha Madigan where insurance is concerned, half the feckin Dáil where skyrocketing rents are concerned, etc) and you have a generation which genuinely, truthfully believes that the government, worse than just not giving a f*ck, is actively happy about the exploitation of this generation, regardless of how their quality of life is declining year on year due to this ongoing stagflation. Sh!t such as the Bartra issue and the whole O'Devaney Gardens redevelopment just exemplify the perception that Fine Gael genuinely don't care about how their "trickle up economics" is decimating the lives of those whose income is being trickled up.
Whether you believe that this is a government which simply doesn't believe in anything other than market economics and is a passive partner in the stagflation issue, or you believe (as many young people do) that they're actively fanning the flames because their cronies and clients are benefitting from everyone else's misery is somewhat irrelevant - the bottom line is that young people have entirely lost faith in the idea that the government cares about them. This is why #VoteLeftTransferLeft was such a big movement - the idea is that FFG don't care about the government's role in improving quality of life and controlling the economy to enough of a degree that wealth inequality and stagflation do not impact peoples' everyday lives, and that it's worth trying literally any other combination of politicians because at least they might do what we know FG will not.
Resuming the state building of social housing and tackling the insurance industry head on (instead of actively trying to game it for personal gain like those selfish gobsh!tes Madigan and Bailey) would be two giant measures a government could take to prove that it recognised this stagflation as a real problem and a "block" between macroeconomic improvements and individual quality of life. But no young person I've spoken to trusts FFG to get it done, since they sincerely and genuinely believe that FFG are lining their own pockets on the back of the crisis and don't care who gets hurt in the process.0 -
I didn't vote for them myself, but I've talked to a lot of folk that did over the past few days and there were some surprising people involved too. People that I'd never thought with take a punt on the Shinners...ever.
But the overriding trend throughout all the feedback was that people are uncertain of their futures and simply do not see FFG (especially FG) being responsive to those fears. The folk I talked to want stability in their futures as far as being able put a roof over their heads. They reckon that the jobs market has been lost to chance long ago and understand that the job they're in now may not be there in a few years time, but it's the housing situation that was uppermost in everyone's minds.
I understand their fears completely too, even though I'm pretty ok at the moment. Still have a long way to go on a mortgage, mind you. But we're relatively ok. But, as one girl pointed out to me, she and many of her peers don't even get a sniff at a mortgage and under current trends, never will.
That's the stability I'm talking about. The stability of people's lives as far a basic living requirements are concerned.
The "fundamental changes" in our economy may be what's needed, I don't know. But what I do know is at present we follow a model that guarantees a bust, because markets are uncontrolled and are let get to a point where they go bang. With this neo-liberal way of doing things, we have collapses that are built in and while that may be considered "stable" by some, the vast majority of people don't view it that way.
Voting for quick fixes isn't voting for stability, even if your hoping for down the line is a stable life.
It is akin to wanting a stable life and going to Vegas and putting all your savings on red in the hopes of doubling up to pay for it. It is a damn lot easier than slowly saving your money but it isn't a decision based on stability.
People clearly felt improvements weren't coming fast enough in housing and health but with SF policies there is a clear risk of going back to double digit unemployment and a completely unsustainable budget.
Yes, our current economic model does involve cycles but with prudent management the down times shouldn't be as bad as what Ireland experienced the last time. SF manifesto would put us right back making the same mistakes again.0 -
HatrickPatrick: You should print that post out, put it in an envelope, find your nearest FG TD and ask him to read it in case they're interested why Saturday went the way it did for them. Better yet, send a copy to Leo.
Outstanding post.0 -
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Eeee...lot of anger there.0
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If voters read the SF manifesto, a vote for them doesn't point to wanting stability though. Several of their policies would fundamentally change elements of our economy.
It is a huge gamble in the hopes of getting increased services. They may want personal stability but voted for the opposite.
I often use this analogy to explain why young lefties don't view political stability as a positive thing - the two halves of the Titanic are extremely stable at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean, they've barely moved in the last hundred years and they're highly unlikely to move any time soon barring some kind of cataclysmic earthquake or eruption in their vicinity. Stability is exactly what you don't want if you regard the political system as fundamentally f*cking you over, in that context stability means it will continue to do so indefinitely. Most of us want fundamental changes to our economic system because right now it is badly hurting us and ruining our lives from several different angles simultaneously. Stability means this doesn't change, so as far as many in this generation are concerned, screw stability. It's the opposite of what we want.0 -
Excellent post ^^^0
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Voting for quick fixes isn't voting for stability, even if your hoping for down the line is a stable life.
It is akin to wanting a stable life and going to Vegas and putting all your savings on red in the hopes of doubling up to pay for it. It is a damn lot easier than slowly saving your money but it isn't a decision based on stability.
People clearly felt improvements weren't coming fast enough in housing and health but with SF policies there is a clear risk of going back to double digit unemployment and a completely unsustainable budget.
Yes, our current economic model does involve cycles but with prudent management the down times shouldn't be as bad as what Ireland experienced the last time. SF manifesto would put us right back making the same mistakes again.
Can you name one party that ran on having a 'quick fix'? I can't.
That's another slice of FG PR, 'these things take time'. As I say, they take even longer when you don't make a start.0 -
It’s a bizarre situation
There probably would be a left leaning government if SF had put up the candidates
Looks like FF /FG and another
SF will rue their decision ??0 -
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Voting for quick fixes isn't voting for stability, even if your hoping for down the line is a stable life.
It is akin to wanting a stable life and going to Vegas and putting all your savings on red in the hopes of doubling up to pay for it. It is a damn lot easier than slowly saving your money but it isn't a decision based on stability.
People clearly felt improvements weren't coming fast enough in housing and health but with SF policies there is a clear risk of going back to double digit unemployment and a completely unsustainable budget.
Yes, our current economic model does involve cycles but with prudent management the down times shouldn't be as bad as what Ireland experienced the last time. SF manifesto would put us right back making the same mistakes again.
But, you don't know this.
What we do know, however, is that the current cartel is screwing things up for the vast majority of people on the island and they are desirous of a change that can possibly make things better re: their futures. They've had enough of the folly that has been the malaise this country has seen since the 90's and their done with that and I don't blame them one bit.
And nobody is talking about quick fixes either. Certainly not the Shinners anyway, who've said that fixing the problems caused by the lackadaisical approaches by FFG will take a long time to repair. Nobody is under any illusion that these issues are going to get done overnight. I haven't heard anyone that I've talked to say that they believe that it's all going to be tickety boo in a few years.
But they know FFG aren't interested in even trying.0 -
But, you don't know this.
What we do know, however, is that the current cartel is screwing things up for the vast majority of people on the island and they are desirous of a change that can possibly make things better re: their futures. They've had enough of the folly that has been the malaise this country has seen since the 90's and their done with that and I don't blame them one bit.
And nobody is talking about quick fixes either. Certainly not the Shinners anyway, who've said that fixing the problems caused by the lackadaisical approaches by FFG will take a long time to repair. Nobody is under any illusion that these issues are going to get done overnight. I haven't heard anyone that I've talked to say that they believe that it's all going to be tickety boo in a few years.
But they know FFG aren't interested in even trying.
How do they know that?0 -
Annabella1 wrote: »It’s a bizarre situation
There probably would be a left leaning government if SF had put up the candidates
Looks like FF /FG and another
SF will rue their decision ??
They got hammered in the local elections, the number of candidates they ran was sensible based on the vote percentage share at the time. The 'surge' was a big surprise to all none moreso than SF.0 -
Brendan Bendar wrote: »How do they know that?
The last 10 years maybe?
People feel absolutely no confidence in FFG and those parties don't do anything to instil any confidence either.
People are opting for choice C for a reason.0 -
The last 10 years maybe?
People feel absolutely no confidence in FFG and those parties don't do anything to instil any confidence either.
People are opting for choice C for a reason.
“And nobody is talking about quick fixes either. Certainly not the Shinners anyway, who've said that fixing the problems caused by the lackadaisical approaches by FFG will take a long time to repair. Nobody is under any illusion that these issues are going to get done overnight. I haven't heard anyone that I've talked to say that they believe that it's all going to be tickety boo in a few years.
But they know FFG aren't interested in even trying.“
How do they know that, pity people like you can’t stop yourselves from tossing out stuff like that.
You could say they are not doing enough, not taking the right options, anything under the sun.
But tossing out rubbish like they are “ people knowing they are not interested” with no back up points you out for what you are.0 -
Brendan Bendar wrote: »“And nobody is talking about quick fixes either. Certainly not the Shinners anyway, who've said that fixing the problems caused by the lackadaisical approaches by FFG will take a long time to repair. Nobody is under any illusion that these issues are going to get done overnight. I haven't heard anyone that I've talked to say that they believe that it's all going to be tickety boo in a few years.
But they know FFG aren't interested in even trying.“
How do they know that, pity people like you can’t stop yourselves from tossing out stuff like that.
You could say they are not doing enough, not taking the right options, anything under the sun.
But tossing out rubbish like they are “ people knowing they are not interested” with no back up points you out for what you are.
You have to go by the facts concerning their time in office. They keep on the same track while the crises worsen, so they are either disinterested or monumentally ignorant. Either way, they've not changed nor looked like changing current policy.0 -
Listening to MM on the News now you'd swear he was not part of government for the last 4 years. Urgent action on housing and health, he's having a f**king laugh.0
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Plumbthedepths wrote: »Listening to MM on the News now you'd swear he was not part of government for the last 4 years. Urgent action on housing and health, he's having a f**king laugh.
Hopefully FF/FG/Greens will listen to the people and sort out housing and health. Then everyone will be happy. Problem solved.0 -
Professor Moriarty wrote: »Hopefully FF/FG/Greens will listen to the people and sort out housing and health. Then everyone will be happy. Problem solved.
Totally agree , if SF's surge achieves only one thing putting the fear of the electorate into FF/FG is prehaps the best outcome.0 -
You have to go by the facts concerning their time in office. They keep on the same track while the crises worsen, so they are either disinterested or monumentally ignorant. Either way, they've not changed nor looked like changing current policy.
What’ facts’ are those you talk about ?
My friend,forgive me if I suggest that you seem to think that, let’s say, the Health Service can be sorted by just deciding ‘Let’s sort out the Health Service.
You seem to think that that’s all that has to happen- no unions- no vested interests- no employees- no management - no public service....
Just wade in and take control and sort the lot out............:D0 -
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hatrickpatrick wrote: »Stagflation has continued in recent years, which means that while macroeconomic factors look good, peoples' quality of life (particularly those who are not homeowners) has been declining. Most people my age have far less disposable income now than they did four or five years ago, due entirely to increases in the cost of living combined with stagnating incomes.
i think a lot of the problem is the expectations millenials have. They seem to have this entitlement to live in a nice apartment in the centre of the city, probably because they grew up watching shows like Friends. Why should they? If others have more money and want to live there, they will do so. The rent reflects aggregate demand and aggregate supply for living in that area. I read that Niamh Horan in the independent complain about the cost of rent, turns out she's living in Grand Canal Dock! Why "must" a journalist live in one of the most expensive parts of town?
If i was a young millennial (and i'm in my 30's so i'm not that old), i would rent a room out in Kildare at 600 per month rather than try to pay 1800 per month for an apartment in the city centre. Save diligently the difference, month after month until i have my deposit. Then, buying in the city is relatively cheap compared to renting, there are plenty of apartments around for 250k to 350k. Two people earning the average wage of 40k could buy an apartment in Dublin city quite easily. But it requires discipline, saving. The millennials want a sugar daddy taxpayer to take care of them. That mentality needs to change!0 -
So I get that people voted for SF because they are sick of the housing issue...what I don't yet understand is why they think SF will be any better based on the only thing we have to go by, I.e. Their manifesto
Can anyone who voted SF explain?0 -
Fred Cryton wrote: »i think a lot of the problem is the expectations millenials have. They seem to have this entitlement to live in a nice apartment in the centre of the city, probably because they grew up watching shows like Friends. Why should they? If others have more money and want to live there, they will do so. The rent reflects aggregate demand and aggregate supply for living in that area. I read that Niamh Horan in the independent complain about the cost of rent, turns out she's living in Grand Canal Dock! Why "must" a journalist live in one of the most expensive parts of town?
If i was a young millennial (and i'm in my 30's so i'm not that old), i would rent a room out in Kildare at 600 per month rather than try to pay 1800 per month for an apartment in the city centre. Save diligently the difference, month after month until i have my deposit. Then, buying in the city is relatively cheap compared to renting, there are plenty of apartments around for 250k to 350k. Two people earning the average wage of 40k could buy an apartment in Dublin city quite easily. But it requires discipline, saving. The millennials want a sugar daddy taxpayer to take care of them. That mentality needs to change!
Youre completely wrong. "millenials" arent living with their parents and living in ****ty house shares moaning because they dont have an american sitcome lifestyle. You sound totally out of touch and ridiculous, you clearly havnt had half the problems most of the poorer working class young people have had to deal with. Allot of people cant actually rely on their parents to pay for things, its very difficult, with the current cost of literally everything to even begin to get on their feet.
Most of them are highly educated adults with no independence, missing out on development mile stones that middle classes and older generations get to experience, like learning how to drive and getting a car, moving out of their parents house, graduating school or college and actually being able to get a job after.
600 a month is allot of money, for allot of people in good jobs that's half their monthly wage. On top of rent, living outside the city, they then have travel costs. A return train from Maynooth into Dublin city costs about 12 euro adding nearly 300 euro ontop of your monthly rent. For people that can afford this, they have a very quality of life, they are literally working just to pay their rent and to get themselves to work.
Youre on another planet if you think the working class, educated young people are complaining because they dont live like 'friends' do on tv.
Where you raised in a bubble?0 -
So I get that people voted for SF because they are sick of the housing issue...what I don't yet understand is why they think SF will be any better based on the only thing we have to go by, I.e. Their manifesto
Can anyone who voted SF explain?
The SD's, SF and FF promise to build social and affordable housing. FG do not intend to in any meaningful numbers.
How ever successful SD/SF/FF might be, it would be moving in a direction the people want.
Looks like MM is cool with another election. I hope he loses his seat.0 -
Airyfairy12 wrote: »Youre completely wrong. "millenials" arent living with their parents and living in ****ty house shares moaning because they dont have an american sitcome lifestyle. You sound totally out of touch and ridiculous, you clearly havnt had half the problems most of the poorer working class young people have had to deal with. Allot of people cant actually rely on their parents to pay for things, its very difficult, with the current cost of literally everything to even begin to get on their feet.
Most of them are highly educated adults with no independence, missing out on development mile stones that middle classes and older generations get to experience, like learning how to drive and getting a car, moving out of their parents house, graduating school or college and actually being able to get a job after.
600 a month is allot of money, for allot of people in good jobs that's half their monthly wage. On top of rent, living outside the city, they then have travel costs. A return train from Maynooth into Dublin city costs about 12 euro adding nearly 300 euro ontop of your monthly rent. For people that can afford this, they have a very quality of life, they are literally working just to pay their rent and to get themselves to work.
Youre on another planet if you think the working class, educated young people are complaining because they dont live like 'friends' do on tv.
Where you raised in a bubble?
Again, you seem to think all of that is wrong and everyone, even those on minimum wage which is what you seem to be focusing on, should be living in the city centre in cheap accomodation.Why? And where's this magic land in Dublin city centre where we can build about 250,000 cheap as dirt homes to accomodate all those people who god forbid have to live in Kildare and Meath.
If you were living in New York you'd probably think it's an outrage you can't afford the rent in Manhattan. Well tough!0 -
The SD's, SF and FF promise to build social and affordable housing. FG do not intend to in any meaningful numbers.
How ever successful SD/SF/FF might be, it would be moving in a direction the people want.
Looks like MM is cool with another election. I hope he loses his seat.
Any meaningful number?
https://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-home-builds-4559654-Mar2019/0 -
Plumbthedepths wrote: »Listening to MM on the News now you'd swear he was not part of government for the last 4 years. Urgent action on housing and health, he's having a f**king laugh.
It sound simliar to what he was up to around 10 years ago. He is some operator:D0 -
Brendan Bendar wrote: »
Social and affordable builds. Not build to lease/rent or redecorating those already there. Read the article. FG tended to included every build by everyone and try claim it as some 'we' numbers.0 -
Fred Cryton wrote: »Again, you seem to think all of that is wrong and everyone, even those on minimum wage which is what you seem to be focusing on, should be living in the city centre in cheap accomodation.Why? And where's this magic land in Dublin city centre where we can build about 250,000 cheap as dirt homes to accomodate all those people who god forbid have to live in Kildare and Meath.
If you were living in New York you'd probably think it's an outrage you can't afford the rent in Manhattan. Well tough!
I dont think they should be living in the city center at all, I think that people should be able to get by if theyre working, regardless of where theyre living. Im not suggesting Dublin city center should be cheap either but currently, its more expensive than London and Paris, Dublin hardly has much going for it when compared to other European cities yet its one of the most expensive places in Europe, why?
One main reason why so many people are desperate to live in Dublin is because thats where the jobs are and public transport is ridiculously expensive and unreliable with trains and buses running once an hour from commuter towns into Dublin city and often theyre late or sometimes dont show up all.
Also, people dont like having to travel 2 or 3 hours each way to work everyday.
You seem to be under the impression that people dont move into commuter towns and areas around Dublin, they do, and these are the problems theyre faced with. Just to add, its not just Dublin where cost of rent have sky rocketed, its country wide. 10 years I ago I was living in a flat share paying 250 for a room in a nice enough 2 bed apartment in a small town, it cost 550 a month for the entire apartment. That room, in that same apartment would now cost me 600 euro a month. That is insane and shouldnt be justified and working people shouldnt be expected to pay it. This is why working people in their 30's are living with their parents and will never own a home.
I focus on minimum wage because its what allot of people who are working have to live off. If everything is priced just in reach for middle classes, where does that leave everyone else? We have created a society of working poor, working homeless, homeless families and children. The middle class cant see past the nose on their face, they look down on working class people and go on as if theyre acting as though theyre entitled. How can they ever get ahead when everything is against them?
We now have an entire generation of adults with very little future prospects and will be either renting till their elderly or will remain living with their parents unable to start an adult, independent life for themselves and when they try to fight for a better future theyre shouted down by middle class people and told that theyre entitled. What is anyone earning below 40,000 supposed to do? Which is far from minimum wage.0 -
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Plumbthedepths wrote: »Totally agree , if SF's surge achieves only one thing putting the fear of the electorate into FF/FG is prehaps the best outcome.
It won't happen. Either SF will get more or FF/FG will be back as brassy as ever. What's the lesson? We nearly blew it, but we're okay now? They never learned before because they know there's always next go.0
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