What have we come to

Tony EH

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

I didn’t realise Michael Mc Dowell, Bertie, Noel Dempsey, Enda Kenny, The Ringer,etc...etc... all worked in hospitals..........verrry interesting.


Were there no medical staff and managers and Unions,and consultants and stuff?

Had they no input into anything?

Strange the private hospitals by a and large seem to work tickety boo?

What's the health situation like in Australia Brendan. Or did you move back to Ireland?

James Brown

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

I didn’t realise Michael Mc Dowell, Bertie, Noel Dempsey, Enda Kenny, The Ringer,etc...etc... all worked in hospitals..........verrry interesting.


Were there no medical staff and managers and Unions,and consultants and stuff?

Had they no input into anything?

Strange the private hospitals by a and large seem to work tickety boo?

So if whom ever gets in does f*** all regards health you'll be cool with that? I suppose that's the kind of thinking gets FF/FG the vote.

Shefwedfan

Bowie wrote: »

Not a supporter, prefer them to FF/FG.
They've not been in here. I like their intent to build social housing.
No mud in calling out FF/FG.
In the North they represented people without a voice and fought to get them that voice. They did more than FF/FG or Lab etc. for the Irish up there.

They got dragged to the Good Friday agreement table, seemed to be happy with those people without a voice getting killed. Even to this day they have continued to lie



The US was the major player but FF had a huge part in the Good Friday, or is saving people's lives not counted anymore?

Brendan Bendar

Bowie wrote: »

So if whom ever gets in does f*** all regards health you'll be cool with that? I suppose that's the kind of thinking gets FF/FG the vote.

No,buddy, but I’m not thick enough to pump out the rhetoric that the problems of the health sector are all due to the politicians, that the hundreds and thousands of staff have nothing at all to contribute as to the running of the service.

I suppose that’s the kind of thinking that gets the bullhorn crews out with the placards knowing the horns will be blown by clowns who won’t look at the full picture.

Tony EH

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

No,buddy, but I’m not thick enough to pump out the rhetoric that the problems of the health sector are all due to the politicians, that the hundreds and thousands of staff have nothing at all to contribute as to the running of the service.

No, you're just thick enough to constantly shill for a political party from 9000 miles away and try to shift the blame onto nebulous factors, while calling everyone else with a different political POV from yours silly names.

Whether you like it or not, governments are responsible for putting in place measurements and methods that shape our services and they aren't immune from criticism for their decisions.

Idbatterim

lads given that it would be so easy to solve health , housing with just one competent person leading the department, why hasnt this been done here? :rolleyes:

You are up against an entire system and civil service that are entirely resistant to change is the answer!

People complaing about the housing , "oh we dont want development near us" . we dont want to pay LPT etc. you'd need a small dictator to get something done in this country and look what we have, our Taoiseach sees himself as a celebrity first and foremost! I dont blame him for wanting to sit on the opposition benches! Because this term for whoever forms government, is about results or obliteration!

Tony EH

Idbatterim wrote: »

lads given that it would be so easy to solve health , housing with just one competent person leading the department!

Nobody has said that however.

Idbatterim

Tony EH wrote: »

Nobody has said that however.

I see the journal full of these comments about harris, eoghan murphy etc. I am not saying they are great or even acceptable. But they are blatantly not the core problem and the core problem might not ever be addressed, but until the public identify who that is and start putting pressure on that area, rather than a single minister , in a system designed to benefit those that have created it, we go around in circles!

RTE that farce, is great at getting in ministers and pointing all the blame on them. please invite the unions and other key players responsible on, they would never do that though, would they?

Tony EH

Idbatterim wrote: »

I see the journal full of these comments about harris, eoghan murphy etc. I am not saying they are great or even acceptable. But they are blatantly not the core problem and the core problem might not ever be addressed, but until the public identify who that is and start putting pressure on that area, rather than a single minister , in a system designed to benefit those that have created it, we go around in circles!

RTE that farce, is great at getting in ministers and pointing all the blame on them. please invite the unions and other key players responsible on, they would never do that though, would they?

The ministers invite blame. They put themselves at the forefront and their decisions are rightfully called into question. There's nothing wrong with this and they don't deserve easy rides just for the sake of it.

But nobody is saying that our problems, especially re: housing and health, are going to be fixed easily. There's been too many years of damage going all the way back to Mary Harney for that happen.

What people are asking for, however, is for some party to at least attempt to alleviate some of the issues we find in the upper most important items that were listed in the exit poll. This would be preferable to the majority of people, rather than see the same old nonsense of riding the bike in circles until the tire goes pop.

James Brown

Shefwedfan wrote: »

They got dragged to the Good Friday agreement table, seemed to be happy with those people without a voice getting killed. Even to this day they have continued to lie



The US was the major player but FF had a huge part in the Good Friday, or is saving people's lives not counted anymore?

Hardly dragged. In talks people have demands and all sides negotiate. I would argue their whole point was trying to get recognised and invited to the table.
Never said it was all SF, did I? You specifically asked about SF. SF played a major role.
It's been very troubling, regardless of anyone's politics, to have major political parties such as FF/FG continually attack the role of one side in a successful peace negation decades after it concluded. There's your petty and spiteful. I guess the pats on the back and photo ops are over.

James Brown

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

No,buddy, but I’m not thick enough to pump out the rhetoric that the problems of the health sector are all due to the politicians, that the hundreds and thousands of staff have nothing at all to contribute as to the running of the service.

I suppose that’s the kind of thinking that gets the bullhorn crews out with the placards knowing the horns will be blown by clowns who won’t look at the full picture.

You seem to let government off the hook. Therefore the next shower won't need to achieve anything and you'll accept that. That's my read Bren.
Who you blame is a side issue.

citysights

Idbatterim wrote: »

lads given that it would be so easy to solve health , housing with just one competent person leading the department, why hasnt this been done here? :rolleyes:

You are up against an entire system and civil service that are entirely resistant to change is the answer!

People complaing about the housing , "oh we dont want development near us" . we dont want to pay LPT etc. you'd need a small dictator to get something done in this country and look what we have, our Taoiseach sees himself as a celebrity first and foremost! I dont blame him for wanting to sit on the opposition benches! Because this term for whoever forms government, is about results or obliteration!

That made me smile the bit about the small dictator but you know what you might be right ( not that we want one of course) because someone is always moaning about something here in this country and some times it’s small unimportant stuff

BluePlanet

The reality is that people will hold SF and the SD to a much higher standard of public service than they have for any party hereto.

And when and IF they get into government and only half the programme for government (whatever that will look like) gets underway, those same posters and media personalities will be jumping up and down about it.
They should expect a YUGE roll eyes from me and anybody paying attention today.

James Brown

BluePlanet wrote: »

The reality is that people will hold SF and the SD to a much higher standard of public service than they have for any party hereto.

And when and IF they get into government and only half the programme for government (whatever that will look like) gets underway, those same posters and media personalities will be jumping up and down about it.
They should expect a YUGE roll eyes from me and anybody paying attention today.

That's the advantage FF/FG always have over every other party, (specifically junior coalition parties). FF/FG have bigger core bases who will vote for them no matter what and a floating voter that will not expect much of anything from either of them except keeping the lights on, most of the time.

Shefwedfan

BluePlanet wrote: »

The reality is that people will hold SF and the SD to a much higher standard of public service than they have for any party hereto.

And when and IF they get into government and only half the programme for government (whatever that will look like) gets underway, those same posters and media personalities will be jumping up and down about it.
They should expect a YUGE roll eyes from me and anybody paying attention today.

Why would they hold SF to a higher standard?

If anything it’s the opposite, everyone thinks they will fall flat on their face and be a disaster, so if they can actually do a decent job most people will be surprised

Shefwedfan

Bowie wrote: »

That's the advantage FF/FG always have over every other party, (specifically junior coalition parties). FF/FG have bigger core bases who will vote for them no matter what and a floating voter that will not expect much of anything from either of them except keeping the lights on, most of the time.

If that was true then FG wouldn’t have had the worst vote sine the 40s and FF are way down as well

The fact is FF and FG have some good politicians so they will get voted in for that area,

Throwing out comments saying people just vote for the name is BS, really the only place I see that is Kerry and some of the other independents....people have no idea what they do but vote them in anyway....the 2 boys below in Kerry have actually no manifesto or any sort of info what they will provide Kerry with but voted in blindly

Tony EH

Shefwedfan wrote: »

If that was true then FG wouldn’t have had the worst vote sine the 40s and FF are way down as well

If it wasn't true, FF wouldn't have got back into power less than 10 years after they crashed the country.

There is a cohort of of people in this country that will vote for their team, no matter what they do.

It is changing slowly, which is a good thing.

Shefwedfan

Tony EH wrote: »

If it wasn't true, FF wouldn't have got back into power less than 10 years after they crashed the country.

There is a cohort of of people in this country that will vote for their team, no matter what they do.

It is changing slowly, which is a good thing.

Based on what?

Tony EH

What based on what?

James Brown

Shefwedfan wrote: »

If that was true then FG wouldn’t have had the worst vote sine the 40s and FF are way down as well

The fact is FF and FG have some good politicians so they will get voted in for that area,

Throwing out comments saying people just vote for the name is BS, really the only place I see that is Kerry and some of the other independents....people have no idea what they do but vote them in anyway....the 2 boys below in Kerry have actually no manifesto or any sort of info what they will provide Kerry with but voted in blindly

FF got support in the 20's percentage wise after melting down the economy.
FG oversaw and exacerbated numerous crises and still came in third.
Compare that to Labour, the Greens, PD's etc.
We are seeing FG reach down to almost the 'vote for FG no matter what' numbers, almost, as we saw with FF in 2011.

There is always that. Speaking generally here.

I disagree. Who on earth would have voted for FF in 2011, aside from the odd person on local issues? It's the floating voters and falling numbers of FF/FG core support that bodes well for the future.

It's absolutely not. There are FF/FG families I've met them. I've seen documentaries about them. I've heard them talk in such a manner, 'I'm a Fianna Fail man, like my father and his father before him'.
Could say the same for Lowry and others, yes.

All I'm saying is FF/FG have a larger core vote and it's not based on performance IMO.

Brendan Bendar

Bowie wrote: »

You seem to let government off the hook. Therefore the next shower won't need to achieve anything and you'll accept that. That's my read Bren.
Who you blame is a side issue.

Your read is incorrect Mr B, what I am saying is however is that the total blame is not on the Govt.

The vested interests have responsibility too.

The Unions, the Management, the workers, the patients, the public.

Everyone has an input in this.

Imagine if the HSE decided on a course of action,as they have done, and generated a serious strike.

Imagine the pressure the Govt would come under from the public irrespective of the rights and wrongs of the issue.

There are great people in the HSE but blaming the Govt. for everything shows a complete misunderstanding about how stuff works and a perception from the public that no matter what they want they should get doesn’t help at all.


Lot of folk around these territories need, in my opinion, to evaluate the issues here and look at things in a more rounded and educated way.

Shefwedfan

Bowie wrote: »

FF got support in the 20's percentage wise after melting down the economy.
FG oversaw and exacerbated numerous crises and still came in third.
Compare that to Labour, the Greens, PD's etc.
We are seeing FG reach down to almost the 'vote for FG no matter what' numbers, almost, as we saw with FF in 2011.

There is always that. Speaking generally here.

I disagree. Who on earth would have voted for FF in 2011, aside from the odd person on local issues? It's the floating voters and falling numbers of FF/FG core support that bodes well for the future.

It's absolutely not. There are FF/FG families I've met them. I've seen documentaries about them. I've heard them talk in such a manner, 'I'm a Fianna Fail man, like my father and his father before him'.
Could say the same for Lowry and others, yes.

All I'm saying is FF/FG have a larger core vote and it's not based on performance IMO.

I think the only bit of post that makes sense is in bold

lawrencesummers

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Your read is incorrect Mr B, what I am saying is however is that the total blame is not on the Govt.

The vested interests have responsibility too.

The Unions, the Management, the workers, the patients, the public.

Everyone has an input in this.

Imagine if the HSE decided on a course of action,as they have done, and generated a serious strike.

Imagine the pressure the Govt would come under from the public irrespective of the rights and wrongs of the issue.

There are great people in the HSE but blaming the Govt. for everything shows a complete misunderstanding about how stuff works and a perception from the public that no matter what they want they should get doesn’t help at all.


Lot of folk around these territories need, in my opinion, to evaluate the issues here and look at things in a more rounded and educated way.

None of these vested interests have implemented the recruitment ban, or decided on a terrible location for the children’s hospital that is hoovering up public funds.

None of them were responsible for taking medical cards off the disabled.

The ultimate person in charge is the ultimate person responsible, and that’s the minister for health and the Taoiseach.

Brendan Bendar

lawrencesummers wrote: »

None of these vested interests have implemented the recruitment ban, or decided on a terrible location for the children’s hospital that is hoovering up public funds.

None of them were responsible for taking medical cards off the disabled.

The ultimate person in charge is the ultimate person responsible, and that’s the minister for health and the Taoiseach.

Not directly, a chara, not directly.

James Brown

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I think the only bit of post that makes sense is in bold

I didn't assume you were citing from your theses. Please add a link to your bibliography.

If you are unfamiliar with FF/FG families you are unfamiliar with the crux of Irish politics since before the state existed to present day, IMO.

wrangler

lawrencesummers wrote: »

None of these vested interests have implemented the recruitment ban, or decided on a terrible location for the children’s hospital that is hoovering up public funds.

None of them were responsible for taking medical cards off the disabled.

The ultimate person in charge is the ultimate person responsible, and that’s the minister for health and the Taoiseach.

Agreed, but it's hard to credit that twenty or thirty excessively well paid senior civil servants haven't the intelligents to run the HSE Properly between them. ffs they haven't even figured that there'll be increased demand in december -february

James Brown

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Not directly, a chara, not directly.

So you partially hold the government to account. That's fine. You can understand how it read were we were talking on what a new government might do differently and you start talking about hospital staff and management. They play a role but do not make policy.

Shefwedfan

lawrencesummers wrote: »

None of these vested interests have implemented the recruitment ban, or decided on a terrible location for the children’s hospital that is hoovering up public funds.

None of them were responsible for taking medical cards off the disabled.

The ultimate person in charge is the ultimate person responsible, and that’s the minister for health and the Taoiseach.

So what is the solution?

James Brown

Shefwedfan wrote: »

So what is the solution?

I suggest we elect people to public office to tackle it and if they are woeful try some others.

Brendan Bendar

Bowie wrote: »

So you partially hold the government to account. That's fine. You can understand how it read were we were talking on what a new government might do differently and you start talking about hospital staff and management. They play a role but do not make policy.

Of course I do, a chara, get this, everybody in the sector is accountable.

Everyone plays a role,dude, especially those in the public service.

You need to understand that policy is dictated by resources available and what, in this case, the taxpayer can afford.

Are you suggesting that irrespective of the income available from the taxpayer that unlimited resources be thrown at the hse?

You do realise that revenue available for public services is a ‘pie’ which has to be distributed and horsing x amount to one sector means x- that amount is available for everything else.

Have you ever thought like that?

Hmmmmm......