New Dail / New Taoiseach

LuckyLloyd

Weepsie wrote: »

Maybe not the right place to ask or state, but I know michelle o Neill is an elected rep of SF in NI and the effective 2nd in command, but she's not elected to representative in the south.

She has no business imo being at any sort of discussion about forming our next government.

All the parties will have unelected advisers in these discussions.

Michelle O’Neill is an elected representative in Ireland, she has every business being involved if SF see it as beneficial.

The Tetrarch

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

All the parties will have unelected advisers in these discussions.
Michelle O’Neill is an elected representative in Ireland, she has every business being involved if SF see it as beneficial.

In January 2020, Michelle O'Neill was appointed deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland.
She is an elected representative of Northern Ireland, not Ireland.

That is a conflict of interest.

ednwireland

more to the point shouldn't Michelle o'Neill be in stormont as deputy first minister doing her job.

LuckyLloyd

The Tetrarch wrote: »

In January 2020, Michelle O'Neill was appointed deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland.
She is an elected representative of Northern Ireland, not Ireland.

That is a conflict of interest.

SF are an all Ireland party. They will have advisors that span both jurisdictions. You can get all heated up about that if you want, but who cares.

The Tetrarch

Perhaps Sinn Fein might recognise reality.
They do not recognise Northern Ireland or Ireland.

From the Sinn Fein mainfesto

Political unionism has lost its electoral majority in four consecutive elections and the exit poll conducted across the 26 counties in the wake of the Local Government and European elections in 2019 showed a huge majority in support of Irish Unity.

Demographic trends suggest a nationalist voting majority in the north is close.
shifts in population and identity demographics in the North in recent decades.
in the event of Unity, the North would automatically
In the North, Tory-imposed austerity has placed
Continued access to citizens in North to the
currently carried out by the HSE in the South and the NHS in the North
based on the model in the North of Ireland
supporting the LGBTQI community North and South
In the North, we have
linking larger cities North and South
authorities in the North
coastal counties in the North of Ireland
people living in the North

The Tetrarch

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

SF are an all Ireland party. They will have advisors that span both jurisdictions. You can get all heated up about that if you want, but who cares.

Lloyd,
Please stop the personal remarks.
The point is Michelle O'Neill is a minister in another country.

Sleepy

I'm too young to have lived through the chaos the unions caused in Britain in the 70's but I'm not too young to be unaware of their carry on and (ironically, thanks to Labour policies) I'm educated enough to neither have need of them, nor to fall for the bluster of the career trade unionists when they have their tantrums on the airwaves. We have extremely strong legal protections for employees in Ireland and unless that changes, they're an obstacle to progress in my eyes (and, I believe, to many of the rest of my generation). While I'm aware that many of the worst offending public sector unions are no longer affiliated with Labour, I don't think the general public are.

It's not the only issue they're facing. Getting the blame for their role in the (imo, necessary) austerity policies of their time in power with FG being the largest one identified already in this thread of course, but for those of us who'd be liberal on social issues and centre left on economic policy who have had to hold our noses at the unions position in the party's structures while voting Labour in the past, we no longer need to, we can just vote Social Democrat.

is_that_so

ednwireland wrote: »

more to the point shouldn't Michelle o'Neill be in stormont as deputy first minister doing her job.

It was Sunday and parties do love to "donut" in front of the camera!

The Tetrarch

The UK exchequer provides a £10.8 billion (€12.8 billion) annual subsidy to Northern Ireland, and pays £8.6 billion net (€10.2 billion) each year to the European Union.
The UK government have taken steps to rid themselves of the €10.2 billion each year to the European Union.

In their manifesto Sinn Fein want to spend an initial €9.85 billion on capital expenditure in Ireland (if in government), and an extra €12.25 billion a year current spending, and as far as I can see another €2.4 billion on “giving workers and families a break”, and recover €3.8 billion through extra taxation.
I am unsure about the last two figures as it is unclear to me from their manifesto if the €2.4 billion spend, and the €3.8 billion extra taxation are in the earlier figures.

Sinn Fein will, I assume, in their plan for an all island Ireland, continue the UK €12.8 billion annual funding to what is now Northern Ireland.
And they will spend their manifesto extra €12.25 billion a year current spending in Ireland.
That would be, in a united Ireland, an extra €25.05 billion a year current spending (€12.8 billion UK + €12.25 Sinn Fein manifesto).

Northern Ireland has a population of 1,885,400, and Ireland has a population of 4,916,400, or 6,801,800 for the island.
There are 817,000 working in Northern Ireland, and 2,014,900 working in Ireland.
If Sinn Fein want to “tax the rich”, I will guess that is the top 20% of the population, or 20% of (817,000+2,015,000), or 20% of 2,832,000, or increase tax on 566,400 people.
If you try to tax the super-wealthy billionaires they will move offshore to tax havens. Many are abroad already.
Now an extra €25,050,000,000 spend a year split over 566,400 people is an extra €44,227 tax per working person.
Ireland’s national debt is €230 billion. I doubt we can put an extra overspend of €25 billion each year, every year, on the tab.

The latest CSO figures I see (2016) suggest to me that the top 20% of households have a gross income of €80,000 and above per annum. These households already pay tax.
Sinn Fein's manifesto, if implemented, would charge those households another €44,227 a year.
I assume one earner per household. If there is more than one earner per household they will/might escape the extra €44k a year, but others will pay more than €44k a year.


It is possible I got the sums terribly wrong. If anyone can put a better shape on it please do.

Riskymove

Now an extra €25,050,000,000 spend a year split over 566,400 people is an extra €44,227 tax per working person.

Tax is not only paid by individuals

beggars_bush

Riskymove wrote: »

Tax is not only paid by individuals

You don't pay tax on laundered money either

Widdensushi

Riskymove wrote: »

Tax is not only paid by individuals

The big companies will have a double whammy of struggling to get staff to work in a higher tax country and having to pay more tax themselves, what will happen next is obvious and then the tax burden will get higher on those who are left and so on till the country is completely ****ed.

The Tetrarch

Riskymove wrote: »

Tax is not only paid by individuals

Thanks. I am a retired accountant.
Corporation Tax, Value Added Tax, Inheritance Tax, Capital Gains Tax are all paid eventually by individuals.
You tax the people who can not avoid it. A tax must be collectable.
Corporations will move.

The Tetrarch

Riskymove wrote: »

Tax is not only paid by individuals

If you can catch them. At times the Criminal Assets Bureau are required.

Charles Babbage

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Thanks. I am a retired accountant.
Corporation Tax, Value Added Tax, Inheritance Tax, Capital Gains Tax are all paid eventually by individuals.

Exactly. If tax a corporation then all you are doing is taxing its shareholders. It seems to be acceptable to do this because most of these live abroad and do not vote in Ireland. But as you say, the corporation can move or greatly reduce its exposure to Irish tax.

Inquitus

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Thanks. I am a retired accountant.
Corporation Tax, Value Added Tax, Inheritance Tax, Capital Gains Tax are all paid eventually by individuals.
You tax the people who can not avoid it. A tax must be collectable.
Corporations will move.

I am particularly concerned by the proposal to whack Multi-nationals with a whopping 15.75% ER Contributions on incomes above 100k. This will be a massive cost to them, one that certainly disincentivises their being here, and they are the main providers of the better paying jobs in the country.

That's before we even get into the more reckless area of changing intellectual property rules et al, as you correctly point out, it is easily avoided by moving, and given they are the main driver of our economy we need to be sensible about this. Thankfully they haven't got enough numbers to implement these sort of suicidal policies.

Valhallapt

The Tetrarch wrote: »

In January 2020, Michelle O'Neill was appointed deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland.
She is an elected representative of Northern Ireland, not Ireland.

That is a conflict of interest.

So if she was from Donegal that’s ok, but Derry is a conflict of interest!?!

LuckyLloyd

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Lloyd,
Please stop the personal remarks.
The point is Michelle O'Neill is a minister in another country.

And the point remains she's a senior member of SF and may well provide assistance to the negotiations. Which is all very normal for an all Ireland party, as unfamiliar as you may find the concept.

Weepsie

Valhallapt wrote: »

So if she was from Donegal that’s ok, but Derry is a conflict of interest!?!

It's nothing to do with where she is from. She's an elected representative of a foreign government.

As such she has no right to have a say in the formation of ours.

Especially given she was part of the farce that couldn't form one for 2 years

The Tetrarch

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

And the point remains she's a senior member of SF and may well provide assistance to the negotiations. Which is all very normal for an all Ireland party, as unfamiliar as you may find the concept.

I understand she is the First Minister of Northern Ireland, not this country.
How can she work here, when she is employed there?
Will she favour Northern Ireland, or will she favour Ireland?

Valhallapt

Weepsie wrote: »

It's nothing to do with where she is from. She's an elected representative of a foreign government.

So she represents foreigners does she?

jam83

Valhallapt wrote: »

So she represents foreigners does she?

Yes absolutely

LuckyLloyd

The Tetrarch wrote: »

I understand she is the First Minister of Northern Ireland, not this country.
How can she work here, when she is employed there?
Will she favour Northern Ireland, or will she favour Ireland?

SF would see it just as Ireland.

Dyr

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Thanks. I am a retired accountant.
Corporation Tax, Value Added Tax, Inheritance Tax, Capital Gains Tax are all paid eventually by individuals.
You tax the people who can not avoid it. A tax must be collectable.
Corporations will move.

If you're a retired accountant you'll realise that your 12.8 billion figure is nonsense, so why are using it?

Patrick2010

Anyone watching prime time? Miriam seems to be on a real ego trip, dominating conversation, cutting everyone off

Millionaire only not

Shane Ross sitting crouched in his seat , a beaten man !

BornIn84

I despair at what's to come after comments from ELECTED OFFICIALS saying the "up the ra" and "we broke the bastards" - where is the sophistication and grace of these people.
I want smart people in government - i want people who will work with the budgets they have and don't promise the sun moon and stars because all of those shouting "the tired is turning" will be bitterly disappointed when not much changes...

Rodin

BornIn84 wrote: »

I despair at what's to come after comments from ELECTED OFFICIALS saying the "up the ra" and "we broke the bastards" - where is the sophistication and grace of these people.
I want smart people in government - i want people who will work with the budgets they have and don't promise the sun moon and stars because all of those shouting "the tired is turning" will be bitterly disappointed when not much changes...

You need a technocracy then. Not a democracy (where people aren't chosen on merit)

benjy1000

Patrick2010 wrote: »

Anyone watching prime time? Miriam seems to be on a real ego trip, dominating conversation, cutting everyone off

She’s gutted Fianna Fáil didn’t do better.

LuckyLloyd

Patrick2010 wrote: »

Anyone watching prime time? Miriam seems to be on a real ego trip, dominating conversation, cutting everyone off

Her brother was in foul mood on drive time earlier too. Bad couple of days for FF members.