Last of the Summer Wine

Swashbuckler

Excellent stuff D and nope, you specifically addressed my questions and added more color to all of it too so thanks.

I was especially interested in how you felt after phase 1. Just so you know I asked D a similar question so its more a case of me trying to get a cross section of people's opinions on how it went for them. With phase 1 my main worry would have been "if you dont use it you lose it" so lack of speedwork being a concern. But I think I get it now - its not necessarily lack of speedwork but moreso lack of anaerobic training which will offset the aerobic gains.

I'll be following with interest. Particularly because you have gone from a half marathon specific block into a big marathon prep block which is infact my own plan for Sept 2022 thru to Oct 2023.

And also for what its worth I also found interpreting Livingstons book tricky....But it seemed like the upshot of phase 1 was all aerobic training. As many miles a week as you can manage. Up to 90mins and a 2hr at what we consider easy pace. Up to 60mins at what we consider marathon pace and up to 90 mins at what we consider steady. Sometimes a fartek thrown in place of the 60mins MP. And repeat that over and over again for as long as possible. At least that's what I figured with D's help.

Duanington

I had a chat with L and a couple of club coaches that I would respect about the "speedwork" recently and they really confirmed what you pick up from the books and from of the videos, threads etc that go into more detail.

• If the aerobic engine is there, it really doesn't take much in terms of faster work to get the legs spinning again
• strides and fartlek work are both key elements of the base phase that don't really get the right level of focus in the original books (probably, as Murph pointed out, because the originals were written largely with the elite group in mind and it was most likely just assumed that "sure everyone knows that strides are part of this"). Lydiard apparently didn't want to include a lot of what he did include in the book for this very reason, he knew every individual was different and some would need more of one thing than others. In the end, the publishers cajoled him into it (from what I read\hear). Some people never really left the base building phase, because that's what they needed most and that's what suited them best.
• Long recoveries and hard efforts of under 30 seconds were very common to keep in touch with the physiological and mental requirements of running that bit faster. Again, not everyone in his groups needed this so not everyone did it .
• The hill phase essentially conditions you for the anaerobic stuff, which is relatively short lived, and makes sense given that most of what we do is aerobic. But even then, there were people that needed longer anaerobic phases to peak. I've certainly found that I've needed a good dose of rep style sessions to get accustomed to faster stuff again, although it has definitely come back to me a lot quicker than I first feared (again, as predicted by L and others) - I am also someone who didn't really focus enough on the turnover work in the base phase, I was all about the steady work so I'll be changing that next time around.

I've been toying around with this for about 18 months now and have twice gotten myself into what felt like very, very good shape at the end of base phases, only for injury or COVID to mess it all up so I'm by no means an expert in the field but its been interesting to see\feel the changes in dynamic as I've moved through the phases this time around. Hopefully we can all stay injury\illness free now for a good stretch and see it through to the end

Interesting times ahead !

Murph_D

Thu 19 May

Rest. I’m taking fewer rest days this year than usual, but felt I needed this. 

Fri 20 May

Headed to the Park from work - HR was quite high on the jog through town which is always stressful with crowded footpaths and traffic. I hoped it would settle but it never really did, and so the 90 mins sub-T run in the park was on the slow side as I was struggling to keep stay in zone 3. Nevertheless I really enjoyed this, and the 90 min workout went by quite quickly.  

Sat 21 May

First visit to St Anne’s parkrun since January. Easy first lap, chatting to a couple of clubmates, pushing a bit more in lap 2. Felt harder than it should, to be honest. But good to be back! 1st M60. 😉

Sun 22 May

2 hours long run - after a late night celebrating my sister's 60th birthday (and unfortunately both my sisters are younger than me). Took myself out the southside coast to just beyond Dalkey village, then back to Dun Laoghaire for an ice cream and the Dart home. A wave from marthastew and Joe in Sandycove. Amazing how many people you bump into when you’re a runner. Huge improvements to the cycleways since I was last out this way - great to see, and hopefully they’ll eventually complete the S2S all the way to Sutton.

Good week at 83k, but a bit short of the 8 hours that DD is telling me I should be running. Damn rest day!

• This week: 83k (52m) - 460 mins
• This month: 221 (138)
• This year: 1,324 (823)

Murph_D

Week of 23 May

The hill transition continues. Slowly coming out of the post-covid fog, I think, and it’s starting to feel like it used to. Just as well with Cork Half coming up next week, although I haven’t really thought yet about how I might approach it. 

Mon 23 May

Easy hour with strides, just the 10-second version this week. Out along the coast during the lad’s GAA training as is usual for a Monday.

Tue 24 May

77 mins total including 2 x 15 mins steady, 6 x 30s hills.

On paper this looked easier than last week’s 2x20 mins with hills, and indeed it was. A muggy evening but I was getting a decent pace out of the steady effort and I actually enjoyed the hills - don’t know why I haven’t made a habit of a hill block every year. Just trying to concentrate on form while going hard but not to hard to lose control. Changed from one St. Anne’s hill to another (the one that’s now on the parkrun route) to give an old gent who was doing some plyometrics some space (no, it wasn’t TbL). Windier second block of steady but all good.

Wed 25 May

40 mins recovery - creaky enough on another muggy night and I was glad there wasn’t anything more strenuous on the cards. Sometimes recovery runs feel difficult to do, which would seem to defeat the purpose - definitely not feeling like a ‘regenerative’ run, so I might substitute rest days on the Weds for the next few weeks and see how that feels. 

• This week: 30k (19m)
• This month: 252 (156)
• This year: 1,354 (842)

Swashbuckler

you'll notice an uptick in questions from ol' Swashbuckler these days.

Are the hills literal hill sprints/runs and is there a plan to do the traditional Lydiard hill bounds/springs too?

Murph_D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119116485#Comment_119116485

No problem re questions - appreciate the interest!

I actually have that question myself for you-know-who. To be honest though I don't think the bounding/springing is on the cards, as from the little research I've done I know that some coaches prefer to do more normal hill sprints these days. Whatever about bounding, the springing looks particularly difficult, and I think the injury risk can be high!

The advice for me was "Sprint hard but controlled, form is more important than pace; full recovery required so jog down very slowly".

There are some 'corkscrews' coming up too - that's a 600m steep hill in Howth that's beloved of Northside athletes back to the Hoopers in their prime and probably earlier. So there will be plenty of variety in the hills.

Swashbuckler

Deadly. Thanks for that. I had a crack at the springs last week just for fun and I definitely noticed it the following few days. Very very easy to overdo it but I'd imagine some pretty big adaptations if done right

Murph_D

I think in my case it's very much an old tricks for old dogs scenario.

😆

Swashbuckler

Ironic considering so many people call Lydiards training old fashioned! 🤣

squinn2912

Apologies if this has been asked before but how often are you doing the hill sprints? I can only say I’ve had one real hill session in my programme. I did feel benefit but was surprised it didn’t reappear. I had a fair few niggles along the way though and maybe that was the reason the hills weren’t featuring more. When self-training I never have specific hill work.

Murph_D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119122367#Comment_119122367

The short answer is once a week for 8 weeks. That may change.

I'm intrigued - if you felt benefit and it didn't reappear, what did your coach say when you asked?

Re self training, if you felt benefit, why not prescribe hills for yourself?

Not trying to be a smartarse - genuinely curious. It's not that I'm a sudden hill convert - did plenty of sessions back in the day with P&D; more recently with the 80/20 method. You can't argue against it really - not a feature of Hanson (which is the approach I'e been most interested in in recent years) but then again Hanson kind of assumes you have this in your background (I think - maybe it's just something the Hansons ignored in the admirable quest for simplicity.)

I don't think injury risk is a factor in hills - if anything, hill running is designed as a way to run safely with good form.

Swashbuckler

I don't think that's necessarily the case D. I recall having issues with hips/lower cross syndrome and Luke mentioning that hills can exacerbate those issues. For someone who is quad dominant I think hills can push you even further in that direction. But I'm not 100% sure. Probably not applicable to short sharp 12s hill sprints to but moreso longer hills.

Murph_D

Thu 26 May

Recovery 50 mins. Didn’t you just do a recovery run yesterday? Yes, yes you did. 

Fri 27 May

2 hours with 90 mins at sub-threshold. 

After a sleep-disrupted night I got up early and got the big workout out of the way before breakfast. A beautiful sunny morning, cool in the shade as I headed up the Malahide Road, starting the steady stuff near Artane. Felt very good for the first few miles in the cool air, although I had to switch to the shadier side of the road because the low sun was bothering me and I hadn’t been able to find my favourite cap before leaving the house. It’s a lumpy route out to Malahide, perfect for this kind of run, although the footpaths are terrible in some places, especially in Kinsealy and Malahide, where one would expect better. 😉 I’ve done a few MLRs out this direction before but this time I made it all the way to Malahide Castle, turning for home in the Demesne. Second half was probably more downhill and it went by in no time. I’ve noticed a tendency to slip back towards standard long run pace after a while in these long steady runs, so tried to keep an eye on the effort levels all the way and keep it honest.

Sat 28 May

9k with 5 @ MP

Pacer Saturday in St. Annes’s, back in the 24-min slot for first time in a while. Warmed up with a couple of miles on the grass with C and C, then donned the pacing bib. Course quite chaotic in the start/finish area with concert preparations taking place as well as the usual Saturday market. Brought it home in 23:58. Short cooldown before having to forego the usual coffee chats due to other commitments. 

Sun 29 May

2 hours long run.

Along the Tolka to Ashtown and over to the Park, back home via Cabra and the Royal Canal. The mileage is high this week and I wondered how I’d feel during this, but the answer was, feeling great, enjoying the easy pace and the lushness of the route.

Another good week in the bag - 92k and comfortably over the eight hours. Mini taper now before Cork.

• This week: 92k (57m) - 516 mins
• This month: 313 (195)
• This year: 1,416 (880)

MisterJinx

Nice mileage this week and good to see you are feeling good now for Cork. Love that Tolka Ashtown Canal route, you really feel like you are out of the city and in nature. Good luck with the taper

Swashbuckler

That was a big week. Nicely done D. Nice steady run followed by a nice session followed by a nice long run. Great stuff.

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119124753#Comment_119124753

Sorry I’m just getting back to this now. Em on the self-training I’ve always had issues with glutes/hips and a physio once said he’d associate my injuries with hill running. That jittered me a bit. Also not really knowing how to put those repeats into a programme properly - do they replace the intervals, what kind of real pace because they’re too difficult to measure.

Emm not too sure what the coach was thinking or not thinking but I just went with his word. I raised an eyebrow when they appeared and the other when they didn’t reappear haha!

I would be still concerned about injuries vs benefit on the hills and I am blessed with little other option but hills in my everyday running so perhaps I get enough at easy, steady and tempo pace? Not sure. You smart arse away I don’t mind a thinker’s thoughts!!

Laineyfrecks

Nice week D, best of luck with the taper😊

Murph_D

Doing most of your everyday running over hilly terrain is certainly a good thing - one of the reasons I'm happy to do a good bit of running in Donegal, although Dublin has plenty of good drags too.

My understanding of hill repeats is that they are basically strength workouts, where your bodyweight is the resistance, with benefits that can probably be replicated by other kinds of strength workouts if necessary (e.g. if injury is a risk - but of course injury is a risk with any kind of activity if not done properly). But I'm no expert and just do what I'm told - 'hard but controlled, and take full recovery before starting the next one'.

Duanington

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119131047#Comment_119131047

I'll chime in and add to this given that I've been lurking in the background !

Strength, conditioning, turnover, co-ordination, form, firing up all the right muscles in the right order with a relatively reduced injury risk (if done right of course).

There's huge variation to "hill repeats" though - shorter repeats, longer repeats, steady repeats, a mixed back, full recovery etc.....all doing different things but the last 2 weeks are designed to help develop specific aspects, to prepare the body for what's to come down the line and to build on top of the aerobic base. As the hill sessions progress, the nature of the session shifts back towards endurance and (mental strength) over the "S+C" nature of the shorter hills.

It can sound and seem complicated at times but it isn't really when you peel it all back

squinn2912

Just seeing these contributions about the hills. Aye it’s just too hard to quantify for me so my hill training comprises of easy running with them and finishing tempos with them. Try to have no hills for intervals so it’s kinda just whatever is on the route.

Murph_D

Week of 30 May

A session, a mini-taper and a race. But no fireworks.

Mon 30 May

67 mins easy with some strides - Howth Road to St. Annes and back via the coast.

Tue 31 May

Hill pyramid - 10/20/23/40/45/40/30/20/10 secs, with warmup and cooldown.

An outing to see a relative’s play meant there was no opportunity to do this until near midnight, which was an interesting experience. A local hill off Griffith Ave - had it to myself of course with hardly any traffic either, so no issue running it on the road. It probably took me longer to set up the watch for this than to do the session itself (no chance of eyeballing the watch in the dark, so I needed the beeps). I really enjoyed this and I think the effort was very honest for all the reps, even the longer ones. Not the most difficult hill but I wasn’t going to drive to Howth at this hour of the night.

May total: 332 kms (206 mi) 

Wed 1 Jun

30 mins recovery in the local park.

Thu 2 Jun

Not much running today either. Brought the lad to a GAA match in Cabinteely and took the opportunity to visit the lovely Cabinteely Park. But it was bucketing rain and I wanted to support the team for the 2nd half so cut this one nice and short - 26 mins. 

Fri 3 Jun

Rest.

Sat 4 Jun

29 mins easy in St. Anne’s park with C, D and M, followed by coffee etc. Interesting to inspect the concert setup in the park. Cut out of the coffee earlier than usual to drive down to Cork.

Sun 5 Jun

Cork Half Marathon: 1:35:16

We were in a nice hotel but as usual I got hardly any sleep the night before. I partly blame myself for this. We went for a lovely dinner with AGYR and partner and then while waiting for the lift in the hotel lobby decided at the last minute to have a nightcap (it was still early, and I'd stuck to the water over the meal). I’m continuing a relatively abstemious lifestyle with no midweek drinking but ordered a pint of Guinness, which arrived a little sloppy. Not the worst I’ve ever downed but not the best either. Thought little of it but it didn’t sit right with me and I felt a bit wired and got hardly any sleep - however lack of sleep is not an unusual pre-race experience for me, so maybe it's unfair to blame the sloppy pint. 😁 On the other hand, writing this report now over a much better Rebel Red in the hotel bar. Life is good. Moral: if you must drink a pint, stick to the local brew.

Anyways.

Early breakfast, a rest, then put on the Sanctuary Runners singlet and said goodbye to the mrs, who was running a relay leg with a SR team. Jogged to the start, bumped into a couple of clubmates, and soon we were off. Started briskly enough on some nice leafy roads around Pairc Ui Chaoimh, then merged in mile 2 with the marathon. The timing of this meant I would be running the second half with 3:30ish marathoners at first, progressing through the field, which promised to be motivational enough, passing plenty of people, while also of course being passed by speedy relay people every so often. Plenty of action!

From the start though I felt a bit flat and found that earlier than usual I had to concentrate hard on digging in and just trying to get the basics done. The first few miles went quite well - I had identified a potential age rival (Grey) who looked like a decent runner and ran close to him out the South Link Road, a dual carriageway with a nice drag. He got away from me a bit on the steep exit into Turner’s Cross, but whenever there was a bit of downhill (and the course has plenty of ups and downs) I would catch up again. Wasn’t sure at first if Grey was a marathon or half marathon runner so stole a glance at his bib on one of my passes, the flash of blue confirming yes, a rival. Nipped and tucked throughout the middle third of the race which kept me honest and the concentration levels high - which was important because the course is a good bit hillier than I remembered from the couple of Cork Marathons I’ve done (I obviously blocked out a few of the hills in the late-stage marathon fog). A couple of pretty testing drags, but it’s a great race with enthusiastic if relatively sparse support in the outer reaches. 7:10 was the pace I was trying to hit and despite the ups and downs and the general grind, the competition with Rival kept me on track for 10 miles, through the worst of the hills.

Have I mentioned the weather? It was drizzly all the way, with a good bit of standing water on parts of the course but nothing too bad and of course the rain was nice and cooling, rendering the water stations less important than usual, although I grabbed water when necessary, cooled the calves (it's a probably useless habit I've developed) and just a little rinse of the mouth really.

Then, that turn onto that long, dead-straight road (Carrigrohane) back towards town and I was beginning to flag. I’ve been finishing races well in recent times but when Grey sidled past here I was unable to repeat the pattern of the previous 7 miles where I’d managed to fend him off and push ahead every time. Fair play to him, finishing well, but my own splits in the final three miles, into the wind and rain on the endless thoroughfare, suggested I’d finally been found out and the jig was up. Grey's lead was growing, but slowly enough that I entertained ideas of being able to dig something heroic out of the bag in the last mile and a half, but 'twas not to be. To be honest I was looking at my watch now, desperate to be finished. I did pass a good few flagging marathoners and half marathoners in the final stages - enough to feel like the performance was not a total bust - and I enjoyed the excitement of the last half mile through the well thronged city centre streets, with plenty of support for the Sanctuary singlet.

Dug out a reasonable finish, passing a few in the last few hundred meters, but ultimately I knew I’d left it behind and there was little solace in crossing in an unofficial time of around 1:35:19 - about 90 secs off PB performance and only a fifth or sixth best time for the distace. Mediocre enough on paper but probably the most difficult HM course I’ve run yet, so not all negative and a reasonably strong run.

Just a pity that I couldn’t close it out after doing all the hard work well, against the odds, in the first 10 miles.

A very pleasant gathering afterwards in Princes St with the Sanctuary people - music, pizza, chats. Met some new people. It's always inspiring to hear what our Direct Provision people are capable of, despite what they have been through. Kudos to all of them.

• Previous PB: 1:33:52 (Fastlane 2021)
• Target: 1:33:51
• Result 1:35:16
• 257th position (of 3,193)
• Category result - 2nd M60 (of 28)
• VDOT: 47.7
• Age Grade: 75.6%
• Verdict: Disappointing, but possibly better than it looks.

This week: 56k (35m) - 308 mins

This month: 37 (23)

This year: 1,472 (915)

 

DeepBlue

Well done. There's plenty that would kill for your "mediocre enough" result. 😄

Murph_D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119162053#Comment_119162053

Ah yes absolutely and fair enough - it's all relative. There are plenty of people out there today who ran slower times but ran a far better race, no doubt about that! Presume you ran it yourself - how'd you get on?

DeepBlue

Indeed it's all relative. Results we would have given our eye teeth for in the past are now discarded like used face masks as we reach for the next milestone. 😁

Current official result for me says 1.39.07 (possibly gun time?). Garmin says 1.38.19 where I started the watch on the start mat and stopped it on the finish mat. The latter time would be 9 seconds slower than my PB but I'd be pretty happy with that given that Cork is a somewhat hillier course than Charleville. Tough enough ol' day all the same.

Murph_D

Great stuff. Definitely a much slower course than Charleville!

Swashbuckler

DD sent me on an excellent podcast with Lydiards most famous disciple, Nobby. He was asked a question about racing during the base and hill phase. His response was , you can but don't expect to pb...Just remember where you are at with training (and Covid recovery). You can almost bluff a 5k but there's no bluffing a distance that has you running for more than 1hr 30mins.

But I know what you mean. Sometimes results can feel underwhelming ..I think Charleville will forever be a tough comparison given its so fast and flat. I don't expect to beat my Charleville HM pb any time soon.

Well done on a solid run. Not a pb but let's wait for the next two phases before we judge your fitness 😉

Murph_D

Ha, very true re that quote.

It wasn’t so much the non-PB that irks me, more that the last three miles were the poorest. But I suppose that was because the tougher parts of the course had taken a bite out of me.

Still, 2nd M60 is always a decent result — although my Grey rival turned out to be an M65, so 3rd M60+ is a better way of putting it.

Happier today, especially after checking results and seeing that the times a couple of current and former clubmates told me they’d run turned out to have been much closer to my own than claimed. 🙄 I just don’t understand that kind of delusion!

Onwards.

Annie get your Run

Guinness in Cork?! Some pubs in the city don't even serve it 😀. It's a pity the weather was so grey, otherwise that tough stretch along Carrigrohane would have at least offered a gorgeous view of the Lee - although I suspect you wouldn't have noticed it anyway while racing. S often points out that hill up to Turners Cross as being one of the toughest on the marathon route and watching people slog up it yesterday while on the bus back in, I could see why. Great as always to catch up with you and A and the buzz afterwards was truly fantastic. Well done again.

AuldManKing

A good run none the less D - I'm still intrigued by feeling 'Flat' at the start.

Do you think this was done to still being in the Hill Phase as SB points out?

I've had races when I've felt like this - mainly in HM's now that I think of it. While I dont know why it happens (linked to Taper??) - I would say that 13.1 miles is a long way to go if you start off feeling flat at that HMP intensity - it does mess with your head initially and can take a while to snap out of it.

Murph_D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119168182#Comment_119168182

Thanks A - yes, I do think the flatness is exactly that. I've felt it before during tune up races without any taper. While I took a few easy days before this race, it's no comparison at all with a race for which you've trained specifically and tapered appropriately (definitely not the case here on both fronts.) Add in the stage of marathon prep I'm at and that's another factor. Then there's the covid bout - didn't feel like much symptomatically, but there was no arguing with the elevated HR for several weeks afterwards, which has only been coming back to normal in the past couple of weeks. That's a lot of potential reasons to be flat on the day, without even factoring in the lack of sleep.

I must learn to lower my expectations results-wise while still putting in the race effort - because race efforts have always been an important part of my training (and a big part of why I run in the first place.)

Great stuff yourself in your recent race.