Last of the Summer Wine

Murph_D

After a gentle start to the New Year, I’ll aim to run some 800 reps on Tues and add a second session on Tempo Thursday. Any suggestions?

Mon 11 Jan

One hour easy @ 5:44

Another go at shotgun’s January challenge. A better attempt. Only 24 seconds off. I reckon it’s a bit like golf - when playing an approach shot, the object is to get it close. Anything better is just pure luck.

This week: 11k (6 m)
This year: 111 (69)

Swashbuckler

Murph_D wrote: »

After a gentle start to the New Year, I’ll aim to run some 800 reps on Tues and add a second session on Tempo Thursday. Any suggestions?

Mon 11 Jan

One hour easy @ 5:44

Another go at shotgun’s January challenge. A better attempt. Only 24 seconds off. I reckon it’s a bit like golf - when playing an approach shot, the object is to get it close. Anything better is just pure luck.

This week: 11k (6 m)
This year: 111 (69)

Great effort on the challenge.

Training for any particular distance?I'd have some thoughts... But only thoughts... May not be of any use or interest.

Murph_D

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Great effort on the challenge.

Training for any particular distance?I'd have some thoughts... But only thoughts... May not be of any use or interest.

Just ticking over for now, P. Might try a 5k block in the near future though. Fire away!

Swashbuckler

Murph_D wrote: »

Just ticking over for now, P. Might try a 5k block in the near future though. Fire away!

Previously L had me doing split tempos and progressing them. You're probably on a decent base already so you may not need to split them.

1. 25min at MP/5min at HMP continuous
2. 5x(5min at MP/90s at HMP) continuous
3. 10min at MP/5min at HMP/10min at MP/5min at HMP continuous.
4. 12min at MP/6min at HMP/12min at MP/6min at HMP continuous

You can keep progressing them by increasing the HMP sections or the duration of the total workout (keep total below 40mins I think?) . These are taken out of context though so may not suit you. Plus like I said you have a decent base from marathon blocks so splitting them might be overkill for you. They're a low risk base building type of tempo. I used to feel energised (not flogged) after them and they built me up to larger volume threshold work.

Murph_D

Cheers - they look interesting. I probably don't do enough of this kind of split pace stuff. Did a few like this earlier in the year and enjoyed them, so these look like something I would enjoy doing.

The base should be good but tbh I haven't been feeling particularly strong since the marathon TT (could be just boredom) so I'll play it by ear re splitting. When you say split, are you talking about jog recoveries between those listed elements, or what?

Swashbuckler

Murph_D wrote: »

Cheers - they look interesting. I probably don't do enough of this kind of split pace stuff. Did a few like this earlier in the year and enjoyed them, so these look like something I would enjoy doing.

The base should be good but tbh I haven't been feeling particularly strong since the marathon TT (could be just boredom) so I'll play it by ear re splitting. When you say split, are you talking about jog recoveries between those listed elements, or what?

No they're continuous runs. The split refers to the split paces. I think I just call them that.

For me these fit into the mantra of not focusing on specific paces all the time. My weeks would have a spread of LT, HMP, MP, CV/10K, Strides so I move between the pace ranges throughout my weeks rather than a heavy focus on one particular element.

The MP should be reasonably manageable so these don't feel like too much of a stretch.
Personally I live them.

Wouldnt be unusual to feel in a bit of a rut post marathon. You had a long long long year of marathon focussed stuff!

ThebitterLemon

Murph_D wrote: »

Just ticking over for now, P. Might try a 5k block in the near future though. Fire away!

Thought you were in heavy training to race me

TbL

healy1835

Murph_D wrote: »

Cheers - they look interesting. I probably don't do enough of this kind of split pace stuff. Did a few like this earlier in the year and enjoyed them, so these look like something I would enjoy doing.

The base should be good but tbh I haven't been feeling particularly strong since the marathon TT (could be just boredom) so I'll play it by ear re splitting. When you say split, are you talking about jog recoveries between those listed elements, or what?

Yeah boredom is definitely a factor at this stage. Hopefully by late Spring there's something for us to aim toward. Will you go again at the marathon if there's events in Sept/Oct?

Murph_D

Tue 12 Jan

Speed: 6 x 3 mins (3 mins jog recovery)

After last week’s 90-sec reps, I stepped it up to 3 mins, hoping this focus on time rather than distance would continue to make it seem easier, or at least different. I long ago gave up on putting pace goals into the watch workout, as the constant warnings - Speed up! Slow down! (annoyingly with identical warning tones, meaning you can’t tell them apart) - drive me crazy. So I tried to feel the right pace for these, thinking 5k pace would be enough, maybe a bit more.

I was never hard, but must still be softening up because I didn’t get anywhere near 5k pace on any of the 3 min segments, which later analysis revealed were more in the HM to 10k range. In my defence, I ran the first few on the crowded seafront having to dodge a few times onto the grass, which is very sloppy at the moment after the ice thawed out. Bit of a wind out too, which didn’t help on the way home, although those ones were a little faster. Was getting there near the end. I really do prefer running this kind of session on the track, or with company - it’s so much easier, but not an option at the moment.

I won’t embarrass myself by revealing the rep paces. Total for the evening: 12.9k

Wed 13 Jan

Recovery run in Dublin port, nice and slow. Not many people run in there - Strava put me in the Top 10 for a segment along Tolka Quay Road, despite the leisurely 10-min pace. There’s a lot of work going on in the port, with new Brexit-motivated customs infrastructure highly visible at the ferryports. Seem to be some changes to the road layout afoot also. It’s not a great place to run, but I like to check it out every now and then. At the very end of Tolka Quay Road there’s an embankment you can climb and get a fine view of the Bull Wall and Howth, but they’ve managed to make it more inaccessible somehow. On the plus side, there will eventually be a nice new greenway along here, which will make it much more amenable.

Thu 14 Jan

Tempo: 12 mins MP / 6 mins HMP / 12 mins MP / 6 mins HMP2

Jaysis. That woke me up.

Tried this one from the suggestions Swashbuckler provided following my little appeal the other day. It looks harmless enough, but the session really felt like a good jolt after a few months of doing very little of this kind of work. The first 12 mins @ MP was a bit sluggish. Got up to the pace, but towards the end, I’m dreading having to step up to HM effort. Surprisingly, this 6 mins went pretty well. At the end of it you’re hoping MP will feel like recovery pace, and indeed it does, for about a minute, before you’re working again - into the wind this time - with the prospect of the fast finish to come. It wasn’t pretty on that last 6 mins and I was a good bit off the pace, although the effort felt pretty hard into the breeze.

Unfortunately I didn’t get a good read from the HR strap. Never licked the contacts at the start, and I don’t sweat much to compensate, so I wasn’t able to verify that the effort was as honest as it felt.

An excellent workout though. Enjoyed the challenge. Thanks, P!

This week: 45k (28 m)
This year: 145 (90)

Bungy Girl

Murph_D wrote: »

Recovery run in Dublin port, nice and slow. Not many people run in there - Strava put me in the Top 10 for a segment along Tolka Quay Road, despite the leisurely 10-min pace. There’s a lot of work going on in the port, with new Brexit-motivated customs infrastructure highly visible at the ferryports. Seem to be some changes to the road layout afoot also. It’s not a great place to run, but I like to check it out every now and then. At the very end of Tolka Quay Road there’s an embankment you can climb and get a fine view of the Bull Wall and Howth, but they’ve managed to make it more inaccessible somehow. On the plus side, there will eventually be a nice new greenway along here, which will make it much more amenable.

Yeah, it ain't pretty at the moment with temporary fencing everywhere & access to that amazing view blocked off. I tend to head that direction when it's sunny out as you know it's never going to be crowded on a nice day like everywhere else. I'd heard about the development plans but hadn't seen them, looks impressive

Swashbuckler

You really dived straight in there. Haha. Straight to the fourth one (the hardest!).

Nice work. When it comes to those sessions I'll usually try to purely go on feel. If that means easing off the pace then so be it. To be honest as you get used to running those, the MP easy feeling extends for longer...

Edit : it actually does look like you did scale back the pace so ignore my comment!

Murph_D

Swashbuckler wrote: »

You really dived straight in there. Haha. Straight to the fourth one (the hardest!).

Nice work. When it comes to those sessions I'll usually try to purely go on feel. If that means easing off the pace then so be it. To be honest as you get used to running those, the MP easy feeling extends for longer...

Edit : it actually does look like you did scale back the pace so ignore my comment!

That's gas - I just glanced at the list and programmed one into the watch. Must have been looking at it upside down! I would have felt better during the run if I'd realised it was the hardest, but than again the Hanson stuff makes you fairly resilient.

Scaling back wasn't really intentional - I could see I was losing pace in the second half into the wind, especially with the final 6 mins, but wasn't too concerned as I knew I was working probably too hard anyway.

Good workouts though. I'll try one of the easier ones next week!

Swashbuckler

Regression rather than progression. A new novel approach to training. Haha

If you look closely the volume of HMP increases as you move through them. By the fourth workout the total volume for the entire workout is 36mins with 12 at HMP. It's the toughest of all four for sure!

shotgunmcos

I put the hrm contacts under the tap and wince when the cold wet band hits my chest. HR perfect everytime though (with the band)

Murph_D

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Regression rather than progression. A new novel approach to training. Haha

If you look closely the volume of HMP increases as you move through them. By the fourth workout the total volume for the entire workout is 36mins with 12 at HMP. It's the toughest of all four for sure!

Have to dive in there to show the Lemon I mean business.

Murph_D

Fri 15 Jan

10.8k recovery @ 6:02 (73% HRR)

Gentle jog around the northside, lengthening one of my regular loops a little. Of course that took it to over an hour, which is not a recovery run at all, you might well have noticed.

Sat 16 Jan

50 mins easy @ 5:41

I’d like to have upped the pace on this one a little, but wasn’t feeling great after being woken up in the middle of the night by a house alarm nearby. Dodgy alarms are the bane of the urban light sleeper's life. Once I’m wakened, there’s no going back til it switches off, which is often a very long time. So I kept the run easy - mileage is up this week anyway so no need for heroics.

Sun 17 Jan

Long run 20.2k @ 5:27 (78% HRR)

A bit more rested today, so I tackled this long run at the faster end of easy pace. Royal Canal to my 5k limit, then across to Tolka Valley, Finglas and Ballymun. A busy early afternoon out there, plenty of WW’s ‘famblies’ about the place. Had to fight for my line on the path a couple of times, gesticulating at phonegazers and one or two slack-jawed danderers. I don't mind stepping off the path for kids and older people, but I draw the line at young folk, unless they're travelling en masse with bikes and those recently popular ugly little pugs in tow, which you can can (and I did) come across. Took in a few parkrun locations, passing through Tolka Valley, Poppintree and Albert College. Along the way, I came across a golfer with a prosthetic leg hitting balls on some waste ground on Sillogue Road. The guy had a lovely swing. I tend to enjoy longer runs more than short ones and this was no exception.

This week: 85k (53m),
This month/year: 185 (115)

Bungy Girl

Murph_D wrote: »

Fri 8 Jan


Sat 9 Jan


Sun 10 Jan

Annie get your Run

While you're back there, maybe you could go back to Jan 2020 and stop the crazy before it starts!!!!

Murph_D

Oops!

Murph_D

With a view to building towards a 5k TT, starting a 12-week Jack Daniels programme this week. This is made up of Phases III and IV of his 5-10k schedule. Maybe it’s a bit much to start that far into it, but will see how it goes. I won’t necessarily be a slave to the plan - if I don’t like the look of a session, I might substitute for something else. 5k plans never go particularly well for me so I’m not necessarily looking forward to any of this.

Mon 18 Jan

Rest.

Tue 19 Jan

Speed: 4 x 1200 (3 mins jog recovery)

With a couple of speed sessions under the belt already over the past fortnight, I thought I’d be better prepared for this one. Ferris joined me on the seafront after separate warmups. From halfway through the first one of these, I was struggling, and each rep got progressively worse. My aspirational target was 4:50-5:00 per 1200, which is around 21 min 5k pace. I blew up early, and struggled on as I had company. If I was alone I’d probably have just jogged home after the second. Still, thanks for the company, C!

Splits (target ~5:00)

5:00 5:12 5:23 5:33

The only slightly redeeming factor is that the last two were into the wind so probably not totally as bad as they look, in relation to the target. Still pretty poor though. Bit off more than I could chew. Daniels tells you to base paces off recent race performance. Marathon TT VDOT is 46-47 so 5:00 should have been achievable. Hmm. HR was pretty high - hit 93-94% of HRR in reps 3 and 4, so it's not like I was jogging along.

I’ll play it by ear for now.

This week: 12k (7 m)
This year: 197 (122)

shotgunmcos

I've a couple of 5k workouts done (12x400 and 3x 3,2,1) and generally hit 91% HRR.

I'd expect to hit maybe 92-93% HRR in 5k reps if they were 1200m!

94% HRR is working HARD!

Interesting you are on a 5k plan. I've literally never done a 5k plan so its relatively new to me.

Murph_D

shotgunmcos wrote: »

I've a couple of 5k workouts done (12x400 and 3x 3,2,1) and generally hit 91% HRR.

I'd expect to hit maybe 92-93% HRR in 5k reps if they were 1200m!

94% HRR is working HARD!

Interesting you are on a 5k plan. I've literally never done a 5k plan so its relatively new to me.

It's hard alright - too hard for the pace it was being registered at, even into the wind. Something not quite right with me, perhaps.

MY BAD

Embrace the pain

ReeReeG

Murph_D wrote:

With a view to building towards a 5k TT, starting a 12-week Jack Daniels programme this week. This is made up of Phases III and IV of his 5-10k schedule. Maybe it’s a bit much to start that far into it, but will see how it goes. I won’t necessarily be a slave to the plan - if I don’t like the look of a session, I might substitute for something else. 5k plans never go particularly well for me so I’m not necessarily looking forward to any of this.

I had looked at the phases III and IV and very quickly backtracked to II Fair play though, first session on a plan is always the toughest in my not so very broad experience!

Swashbuckler

It's not you Murph. It's part of the issue with back of the book plans.

4x1200m at 5k is a bloody tough workout. I'll put it to you this way, if I was to start a 5k plan tomorrow I'm not sure I'd see that type of session from the bossman coming through in my inbox.

I'd struggle with that session if I had to run it tomorrow and that's off a year of solid base building.

skyblue46

Swashbuckler wrote: »

It's not you Murph. It's part of the issue with back of the book plans.

4x1200m at 5k is a bloody tough workout. I'll put it to you this way, if I was to start a 5k plan tomorrow I'm not sure I'd see that type of session from the bossman coming through in my inbox.

I'd struggle with that session if I had to run it tomorrow and that's off a year of solid base building.

+1 to this. I think its a monster. 1200's off 60% recovery :eek: I'd definitely be looking at possibly 400's, 600's and 800's before probably hitting an upper limit of 1k repeats.

Swashbuckler

Definitely agree with S. Again it's the problem with book plans. There are many ways to prime for 5k without running mad volume. You can shorten recoveries and keep volume relatively low and reduce injury risk. Easy to say in a Boards post. More difficult to plan it all out!

Murph_D

Appreciate the input, and yes of course to the 'book plan' caveat. But I've no plans for a personal coach at this time.

Yes, day 1 of the programme, but I think I have the base, despite a lack of recent quality. The biggest problem with today's session, as S suggests, is probably the lack of recovery between reps. The 4800m volume would be fairly run-of-the-mill for a Tuesday club session for instance, or for any other book plan, Hanson included. That said, when doing those Hanson speed sessions last summer, I insisted on doing them at 5-10k pace. But that was with a marathon in mind, and taking the kindest interpretation of the guidelines.

So yes, as your man the Race Series MC is always saying, over and over, it's not the distance that will kill ya, it's the pace!

I'll stick with it for a bit and see what happens - with variations when it feels right, as suggested above.

Thanks for the comments, they are all valuable.

Swashbuckler

Nice buzz around the logs these days. Long may it last!

OOnegative

Just to echo what others have said D, I had a set of 1,200’s 3/4 weeks out from Amsterdam in 2019. I was in the best shape of my life but had to pull the plug on the session. It’s a damn tough one, recovery is key I think to successfully negotiate it. Well done for sticking with it.

shotgunmcos

Murph_D wrote: »

Appreciate the input, and yes of course to the 'book plan' caveat. But I've no plans for a personal coach at this time.

Yes, day 1 of the programme, but I think I have the base, despite a lack of recent quality. The biggest problem with today's session, as S suggests, is probably the lack of recovery between reps. The 4800m volume would be fairly run-of-the-mill for a Tuesday club session for instance, or for any other book plan, Hanson included. That said, when doing those Hanson speed sessions last summer, I insisted on doing them at 5-10k pace. But that was with a marathon in mind, and taking the kindest interpretation of the guidelines.

So yes, as your man the Race Series MC is always saying, over and over, it's not the distance that will kill ya, it's the pace!

I'll stick with it for a bit and see what happens - with variations when it feels right, as suggested above.

Thanks for the comments, they are all valuable.

Having done those Hansons speed workouts, I can attest to kicking off with 4.8k work volume and at 5k pace. It was 12x400 though with generous 400m jog recovery. Then 600s, 800s, 1000s before the dreaded pyramid and 3x 1,600m.

Since you are a HR advocate, how about letting that guide you? Track the minutes you are banking in Z4 and Z5 and build that progressively? Just a thought

Murph_D

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Having done those Hansons speed workouts, I can attest to kicking off with 4.8k work volume and at 5k pace. It was 12x400 though with generous 400m jog recovery. Then 600s, 800s, 1000s before the dreaded pyramid and 3x 1,600m.

Since you are a HR advocate, how about letting that guide you? Track the minutes you are banking in Z4 and Z5 and build that progressively? Just a thought

Good idea re the zones. I see you’re reading Fitzgerald, and I did track easy vs moderate/hard when I used his 5k plan last year. I do intend wearing the HRM for all runs over the next months and yes, good idea to track those numbers again. Cheers.

AuldManKing

I remember some time back, doing a tempo on the acres and there being about 5 pages of Boards comments on it - as I pulled the plug on it

Good to be close to the old times.

While not wanting to add to your 4x1200 commentary..............let me add to your 4x1200 commentary.

As a Daniels advocate, jumping into phase 3 is a difficult thing to do.
The 4x1200 interval should have been preceded the previous week by 3x3mins Hard + 4x2mins Hard.
This was then preceded the previous week by 4x1m Tempo.
There was also a 7x2min workout a couple of weeks previous.

So the plan has a decent progression to it and obviously, this is lost if you just jump straight into Phase 3 - missing out on 6 weeks building speed and some speed endurance at the faster 'R' (repetition) paces.

I'm not pointing this out for Murphs benefit - he knows this I'm sure - but for anyone else looking to do the Daniels plan - its a tough one, and needs to be done right, otherwise you'll not finish it or get injured.

dtf

For me i'm finding a big difference between speed sessions, in a group, on a track on a Tuesday night and a speed session on my own, on a dark puddled, pedestrian busy footpath. For me anyway, it's just not possible to get anywhere close to the intensity of the track based sessions.

Dubh Geannain

AuldManKing wrote: »

I remember some time back, doing a tempo on the acres and there being about 5 pages of Boards comments on it - as I pulled the plug on it

Good to be close to the old times.

While not wanting to add to your 4x1200 commentary..............let me add to your 4x1200 commentary.

As a Daniels advocate, jumping into phase 3 is a difficult thing to do.
The 4x1200 interval should have been preceded the previous week by 3x3mins Hard + 4x2mins Hard.
This was then preceded the previous week by 4x1m Tempo.
There was also a 7x2min workout a couple of weeks previous.

So the plan has a decent progression to it and obviously, this is lost if you just jump straight into Phase 3 - missing out on 6 weeks building speed and some speed endurance at the faster 'R' (repetition) paces.

I'm not pointing this out for Murphs benefit - he knows this I'm sure - but for anyone else looking to do the Daniels plan - its a tough one, and needs to be done right, otherwise you'll not finish it or get injured.

I just jumped onto an 800 plan at phase 3 this week . But I'm known to be patchy in my consistency so no doubt I won't stick to it to the letter.

That 1200 session does sound tough to start out. Surprised that the recovery is only 60%. For comparison the 800 session I did yesterday had 66% recovery. It was 5 intervals at between my 3-5k pace. 3 mins on 2 mins off. Covered around 4500m on the hard reps. But, I'd done my own interval session the week before 20x(45on/30off) at 3k pace (covered 4600m). I'd say it definitely helped prepare me for what I found to be a tougher session.

Murph_D

I hear ye... All of ye, plus a couple more in my ear offline.

I've jumped into phase III Daniels previously (800m workouts), but only after 12 weeks of 5k work, which is a lot different to my current situation, following three months of mostly easy jogging following the virtual DCM. I've done a few workouts in recent weeks, but on a fairly random basis. I've been trying to convince myself that I've built up at least some of the way to this over the past fortnight but maybe I'm fooling myself.

I'm possibly going to rethink the 12 weeks schedule. I want to stick to Daniels but maybe take 2-3 weeks from phase II to start, then 3-4 from phase III. Possibly three from each is better as they both have a (sort of) three-week cycle, repeated with some variation. Then the full phase IV.

I'm rereading the Daniels Running Formula book. There's a lot of information for customising, although some of it is quite between the lines. So it's a book plan, but it doesn't necessarily limit you to the printed schedules, and in fact provides plenty of alternative sessions if you study it carefully enough to understand the goal of those sessions.

Or of course I could bite the bullet and do an additional six weeks.

Decisions...

Murph_D

AuldManKing wrote: »

I remember some time back, doing a tempo on the acres and there being about 5 pages of Boards comments on it - as I pulled the plug on it

...

If you can link me to that part of your log, or remind me of the approx dates, I’d like to have a look at that discussion, assuming there’s nothing about socks in it.

TIA.

Swashbuckler

dtf wrote: »

For me i'm finding a big difference between speed sessions, in a group, on a track on a Tuesday night and a speed session on my own, on a dark puddled, pedestrian busy footpath. For me anyway, it's just not possible to get anywhere close to the intensity of the track based sessions.

I've heard this said before and it's always something I've struggled to understand. Maybe it's coz I don't do group sessions or maybe it's the specific approach of my coach/my own mentality. Very few sessions are prescribed to be balls to the wall. Mostly sessions are designed to have you running in somewhat of a controlled manner but reasonably high effort. I can't wrap my head around how running on your own (in a controlled session) is that much more difficult to running with other people.

OOnegative

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I've heard this said before and it's always something I've struggled to understand. Maybe it's coz I don't do group sessions or maybe it's the specific approach of my coach/my own mentality. Very few sessions are prescribed to be balls to the wall. Mostly sessions are designed to have you running in somewhat of a controlled manner but reasonably high effort. I can't wrap my head around how running on your own (in a controlled session) is that much more difficult to running with other people.

+1 to this. Another Lone Ranger & have no issues getting myself up to pace on sessions. Like you to, it’s never eyeballs out effort wise but very uncomfortably hard.

ThebitterLemon

Murph_D wrote: »

Appreciate the input, and yes of course to the 'book plan' caveat. But I've no plans for a personal coach at this time.

Yes, day 1 of the programme, but I think I have the base, despite a lack of recent quality. The biggest problem with today's session, as S suggests, is probably the lack of recovery between reps. The 4800m volume would be fairly run-of-the-mill for a Tuesday club session for instance, or for any other book plan, Hanson included. That said, when doing those Hanson speed sessions last summer, I insisted on doing them at 5-10k pace. But that was with a marathon in mind, and taking the kindest interpretation of the guidelines.

So yes, as your man the Race Series MC is always saying, over and over, it's not the distance that will kill ya, it's the pace!

I'll stick with it for a bit and see what happens - with variations when it feels right, as suggested above.

Thanks for the comments, they are all valuable.

Disagree, you should have run mile splits and a lot harder

I’ll be keeping close tabs on here!!!

TbL

Murph_D

dtf wrote: »

For me i'm finding a big difference between speed sessions, in a group, on a track on a Tuesday night and a speed session on my own, on a dark puddled, pedestrian busy footpath. For me anyway, it's just not possible to get anywhere close to the intensity of the track based sessions.

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I've heard this said before and it's always something I've struggled to understand. Maybe it's coz I don't do group sessions or maybe it's the specific approach of my coach/my own mentality. Very few sessions are prescribed to be balls to the wall. Mostly sessions are designed to have you running in somewhat of a controlled manner but reasonably high effort. I can't wrap my head around how running on your own (in a controlled session) is that much more difficult to running with other people.

OOnegative wrote: »

+1 to this. Another Lone Ranger & have no issues getting myself up to pace on sessions. Like you to, it’s never eyeballs out effort wise but very uncomfortably hard.

It works both ways I think. Group sessions can be psychologically easier because the fact that others are doing it makes it seem less hard. Plus if you are on a running track they are often physically easier, especially longer reps, and easier to pace. But being in the wrong group can be counterproductive if you’re overly competitive with your club mates, and end up racing rather than training. That sucks a lot of people in. If Tuesday’s session had been in a group setting, I’d have dropped down to the next group, like I used to sometimes do when running with dtf in big group sessions in Irishtown.

MY BAD

You can't compare doing group sessions correctly then going solo. I've trained with groups where it hasn't been done right and it can be very off putting. The main thing is having a good coach over looking the session who will have everyone working together. I was spoiled before covid. A very small bit of competition can be a good thing but it needs to be controlled and not get out of hand. There was a lot of young lads in my crew so that needed to be watched as they get quite competitive by nature. Having a good crew where you see very progress is hard to beat. Mixing people with different abilities for sessions is a good way to improve the team mentally. I might have 400s where I'm put in with the faster lads doing tempo miles, we're both running the 400s at 75 seconds. They aren't going to go racing because they know they've to pace me. Then the following week might be pacing some of the guys slower than me. You have a responsibility to the guys you are pacing. We all worked like a team to bring each other on. Also having a good coach there over looking a session is priceless, looking at your form, having a wee word during recoveries, and able to switch it up if you are having a bad day at the track.

Murph_D

MY BAD wrote: »

You can't compare doing group sessions correctly then going solo. I've trained with groups where it hasn't been done right and it can be very off putting. The main thing is having a good coach over looking the session who will have everyone working together. I was spoiled before covid. A very small bit of competition can be a good thing but it needs to be controlled and not get out of hand. There was a lot of young lads in my crew so that needed to be watched as they get quite competitive by nature. Having a good crew where you see very progress is hard to beat. Mixing people with different abilities for sessions is a good way to improve the team mentally. I might have 400s where I'm put in with the faster lads doing tempo miles, we're both running the 400s at 75 seconds. They aren't going to go racing because they know they've to pace me. Then the following week might be pacing some of the guys slower than me. You have a responsibility to the guys you are pacing. We all worked like a team to bring each other on. Also having a good coach there over looking a session is priceless, looking at your form, having a wee word during recoveries, and able to switch it up if you are having a bad day at the track.

That sounds like a fantastic setup. Not one that you see that often for ordinary middle of the pack members in my experience of a couple of big clubs. I don't know how many club tempo sessions on the track I've done where I'd end up doing almost the whole thing on my own. The faster runners pacing the improvers is a terrific idea.

Swashbuckler

Was about to say the same thing - id like to know how common that is. My little experience of group club running wasn't that!

AuldManKing

Murph_D wrote: »

If you can link me to that part of your log, or remind me of the approx dates, I’d like to have a look at that discussion, assuming there’s nothing about socks in it.

TIA.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056825673&page=36

oh the shame! And the memories. (2013)

MY BAD

As I said I was spoiled. Getting coached by someone who is so highly regarded and in general such a great guy who was so committed to his athletes is rare. Out there on the track every week no matter the weather. On top of that getting the chance to train with runners who are at such a high level was very beneficial and I learnt so from their attitude and approach. To top the whole thing off was the facilities. But it shows when things are done right everything just clicks into place.

Murph_D

To be fair to the clubs, for many it's a question of not enough coaches for the kind of individual attention we all feel we deserve!

MY BAD

Haha I know! Its extra commitment but its up to us club members to grab the bull by the horns. A lot of the times we expect this and that without giving back to the club in return. I know from experience of coaching C25k and the other senior groups in our club. It takes a lot of work and commitment. I've nothing but respect for all the coaches volunteering in athletics here. We are miles behind compared to the GAA .

Swashbuckler

AuldManKing wrote: »

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056825673&page=36

oh the shame! And the memories. (2013)

"170 miles - 2nd highest mileage ever"

You've come a long way King!

Murph_D

AuldManKing wrote: »

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056825673&page=36

oh the shame! And the memories. (2013)

Interesting discussion. I’m amazed no one took you up on your own point that maybe that session was too soon after the Irish Runner 5 Mile, although maybe you hadn’t raced that fully, or at least all of it.

Also interesting that the collective boards knowledge on HR training and on LT seemed much less than it is now. Just goes to show you the value of the forum - although L was already lamenting a decline in knowledgeable training talk. Career Move seemed to know her stuff though!

I would have been far too green to offer any insight myself back then. But that abandoned session could have been for any of all the reasons mentioned alright! It also points to an earlier obsession with socks than I realised.