If you voted Sinn Fein in the GE, why did you do it?

Calhoun

I think a critical option here is they listened and or tried to understand problems.

I am not sure about other areas but the SF candidate here basically did his homework.

I see sheep

Ballso wrote: »

What do we want? Change!

How will we do it? Eh, by rehashing populist FF policy and pretending it's socialism?

As opposed to FG/FF voters:

What do we want? No Change!

How will we do it? By blindly voting for the same party because my Mam, Grandmother, Great Grandmother voted for them, and give them unconditional power to run the country.

Ballso

Ush1 wrote: »

So if it's solved, why am I still paying USC?

You'll be happy to hear you'll be paying much less USC now thanks to SF. Our 25k waitress will pay none. We'll have less money to spend on housing and health. But change.

SusieBlue

Ballso wrote: »

You'll be happy to hear you'll be paying much less USC now thanks to SF. Our 25k waitress will pay none. We'll have less money to spend on housing and health. But change.

What a pathetic sly dig, but you just couldn't help yourself.

I voted Independent number 1, but I gave SF a 2 and a 3.

Over the last 30 odd years Id say I have given all parties a tick, but after the accumulation of approx 10+ years of monumental screw-ups I can no longer justify voting either FF or FG. The list of reasons is very long, so in terms of waste and squander (excluding where we gave away our natural resources under the Haughey government) I will start here:

National Projects where millions have been spent, with nothing to show, and no paper trail to show where the money has gone in many cases. This list goes back a few years. Needless to say this money is long gone.

€650,000,000 of tax payers money spent on unrealised projects in Ireland up to 2012, and that doesn't include the Poolbeg incinerator project which was recently disclosed to have cost over €90 million, with nothing to show for it.

€30m
Children’s hospital (2006 - )

Some €30 million has been spent by the hospital board – mainly in fees to architects, engineers and other consultants or experts – in progressing its plans.

€42m
Dart Underground

Plans and land acquisition for the Dart Underground have cost millions, but the project has been delayed indefinitely under the new capital spending plans.

€50m
Media Lab Europe

The high-technology “seed bed”, based in Dublin’s Liberties, was run jointly by the government and Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Founded in 2000, it went into liquidation a few years later, with consultants describing its output as dismal.

€130m
PPARS

The HSE’s information technology project started small, at an estimated cost of €9 million in 1997, and ballooned to a cost of €130 million in 2004, before being put on hold by the Health Service Executive in 2007.

€55m
E-voting

Martin Cullen ordered more than 700 of the machines at a cost of €51 million, only to have them placed in storage in 2004 when security concerns emerged. Attempts to sell them have so far been unsuccessful.

€1.5m
Hospital co-location

Almost €1.5 million was paid in legal and financial costs associated with the now abandoned plans to develop co-located private hospitals. Project agreements for each of these hospitals expired in March 2011.

€44m
Decentralization

Millions have been spent on acquiring sites for the Government’s decentralization programme in locations where plans to transfer public service offices and State agencies have been either postponed or axed.

€18m
Metro West

Millions has been spent on the design of this section of the Metro. It, too, has been shelved indefinitely as a result of cutbacks to capital spending plans.

€150m
Metro North

The decision not to proceed with the Metro North rail project as part of the 2012-2016 capital investment programme will cost the State more than €150 million including compensation to the project bidders.

€100m (revised to €400 million)
Bertie Bowl

Millions were spent on consultancy fees and the clearances of the Abbotstown development in preparation for a national stadium. Political opposition from FF’s coalition partners, the PDs, ultimately scuppered the project, although the FAI went on to relocate its headquarters at the site.

€42m
Thornton Hall

The Government spent €30 million acquiring land for the Thornton Hall “super-prison”, which has been delayed indefinitely. A further €12 million has been spent on original plans for the prison and the Central Mental Hospital. Both designs have since been scrapped. Plans for a scaled-down version of the prison have also been long-fingered.

€431m
Dublin Dockland Development Authority

Serious shortcomings were found in the DDDA’s conduct of its planning and development, particularly surrounding its involvement in the purchase of the Irish Glass Bottle site in 2007.

The site was purchased for a total of €431 million by a consortium that included the Authority but was valued at a little over one tenth of that in 2012. (There were bids for €130m for it last year)


These are some of the reasons why I would not vote FF. Other reasons include Irish Aid to Uganda - Tullow Oil saga.


I will list the reasons I didn't vote for FG in my next post.




*I almost forgot

Beef Tribunal €35 million

Finlay and Lindsey enquiries €70 million

McCracken Tribunal €6.6 million

Mahon Tribunal €196 million

Travers Report €500 million (between refundable fees and legal costs)

Moriarity Tribunal €120 million

Morris Tribunal €70 million

Ryan Report €125 million

Barr Tribunal €18 million

Scoundrel

PARlance wrote: »

Well, there is a bit of "they all should be able to afford a bakery" on the thread as well.

Really being able to afford a place to live literally one of humanities most basic needs is wanting s bakery is it??

Idbatterim

Ballso wrote: »

We all know there's a housing crisis Susie, thanks.

Unfortunately it's a complex issue with no easy solution, if it were easy, it would have been resolved already. You can row back on your earlier assertion that people on 25k should be able to own property near where they work but unfortunately that is not grounded in reality. Not here or anywhere.

I wouldnt agree with that totally, you cant solve the problem, if you are a property that behind closed doors, supports rip off prices...

Eric Cartman

_Brian wrote: »

“Social inequality”

That’s some load of shiit there.
It’s been proven over and over that there are educational amd employment opportunities in Ireland, created under right leaning governments.

People who can be bothered to get themselves educated can do so, then there are plenty of opportunities for employment.

By Social inequality people usually mean that the “won’t work” brigade are fed up not having as many nice things as people who’ve made an effort and gone out and work for their stuff.

+1 million,

You also have a whole group of people who went to college, did a degree in origami and a masters in gender studies, died their hair blue, covered themselves in visible tattoos, spent their 20s smoking weed and working on and off in coffee shops and are entering their 30s with no partners, no savings, no career progression and are now giving out that they deserve to own a house within commuting distance of dublin off the councils back or a piddly amount mortgage.

This housing crisis is two fold, its a lack of supply for those who work and an overblown anger by people who havent performed at all or intentionally underperformed in life now wanting the same outcome as their parents who worked 40 hours a week and fought hard for what they have.

jmayo

limnam wrote: »

Excellent point and similar was brought up last night.

Get educated.
Work hard pay your taxes and you'll get your rewards.

A large part of Irish society is starting to realise under FG this was not holding true.

Sorry to tell you, but that no longer works here no more than in a lot of other countries.
A university education is now only a foot in the door for a lot of jobs.

It is a bit like pushing that American dream mullarkey over in the states.

Globalisation, automation, etc means that unless you are in one of the connected tech industries you are wholly expendable and your job can disappear overnight.
It is like the end of the old jobs for life.

I see sheep wrote: »

Being compared to RBB

You're too kind mate, nicest thing someone has said to me all week

I'd say my upbringing was 'lower middle class'.

By your logic I shouldn't argue against all the hate against social welfare recipients that AH is full of because I'm not on the dole?

Do you think only black people can be offended by racism?

Two parents with university education in 80s would not make you lower middle class.
They would definitely be middle class.

Also your 2nd last line leads your last line to imply that white people can get offended by racist remarks made against black people.

Which of course is a very modern leftist attitude which totally seems to forget fact that white people can actually face racism in their own regard from others.

Ballso

SusieBlue wrote: »

What a pathetic sly dig, but you just couldn't help yourself.

What? SF manifesto says no USC on income up to 30K...

Narrowing the tax net is madness. If we are to spend our way out of the housing crisis it needs to be increased, not decreased.

Geuze

growleaves wrote: »

No, you're wrong.

The number of people choosing to (dishonestly) remain on welfare as a lifestyle option is very small as an overall percentage of the population. They couldn't and don't account for Sinn Fein's rise.

A few responses to this.

Ireland leads Europe in joblessness.

In the midst of low unemployment and labour shortages, we lead Europe in the number of inactive households.

We lead Europe in lone parenthood.

We lead Europe in disabled adults.

See here:

https://www.esri.ie/sites/default/files/media/file-uploads/2020-01/Slides_1.pdf

Snow Garden

Deleted User wrote: »

I voted Independent number 1, but I gave SF a 2 and a 3.

Over the last 30 odd years Id say I have given all parties a tick, but after the accumulation of approx 10+ years of monumental screw-ups I can no longer justify voting either FF or FG. The list of reasons is very long, so in terms of waste and squander (excluding where we gave away our natural resources under the Haughey government) I will start here:

National Projects where millions have been spent, with nothing to show, and no paper trail to show where the money has gone in many cases. This list goes back a few years. Needless to say this money is long gone.

€650,000,000 of tax payers money spent on unrealised projects in Ireland up to 2012, and that doesn't include the Poolbeg incinerator project which was recently disclosed to have cost over €90 million, with nothing to show for it.

€30m
Children’s hospital (2006 - )

Some €30 million has been spent by the hospital board – mainly in fees to architects, engineers and other consultants or experts – in progressing its plans.

€42m
Dart Underground

Plans and land acquisition for the Dart Underground have cost millions, but the project has been delayed indefinitely under the new capital spending plans.

€50m
Media Lab Europe

The high-technology “seed bed”, based in Dublin’s Liberties, was run jointly by the government and Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Founded in 2000, it went into liquidation a few years later, with consultants describing its output as dismal.

€130m
PPARS

The HSE’s information technology project started small, at an estimated cost of €9 million in 1997, and ballooned to a cost of €130 million in 2004, before being put on hold by the Health Service Executive in 2007.

€55m
E-voting

Martin Cullen ordered more than 700 of the machines at a cost of €51 million, only to have them placed in storage in 2004 when security concerns emerged. Attempts to sell them have so far been unsuccessful.

€1.5m
Hospital co-location

Almost €1.5 million was paid in legal and financial costs associated with the now abandoned plans to develop co-located private hospitals. Project agreements for each of these hospitals expired in March 2011.

€44m
Decentralization

Millions have been spent on acquiring sites for the Government’s decentralization programme in locations where plans to transfer public service offices and State agencies have been either postponed or axed.

€18m
Metro West

Millions has been spent on the design of this section of the Metro. It, too, has been shelved indefinitely as a result of cutbacks to capital spending plans.

€150m
Metro North

The decision not to proceed with the Metro North rail project as part of the 2012-2016 capital investment programme will cost the State more than €150 million including compensation to the project bidders.

€100m (revised to €400 million)
Bertie Bowl

Millions were spent on consultancy fees and the clearances of the Abbotstown development in preparation for a national stadium. Political opposition from FF’s coalition partners, the PDs, ultimately scuppered the project, although the FAI went on to relocate its headquarters at the site.

€42m
Thornton Hall

The Government spent €30 million acquiring land for the Thornton Hall “super-prison”, which has been delayed indefinitely. A further €12 million has been spent on original plans for the prison and the Central Mental Hospital. Both designs have since been scrapped. Plans for a scaled-down version of the prison have also been long-fingered.

€431m
Dublin Dockland Development Authority

Serious shortcomings were found in the DDDA’s conduct of its planning and development, particularly surrounding its involvement in the purchase of the Irish Glass Bottle site in 2007.

The site was purchased for a total of €431 million by a consortium that included the Authority but was valued at a little over one tenth of that in 2012. (There were bids for €130m for it last year)


These are some of the reasons why I would not vote FF. Other reasons include Irish Aid to Uganda - Tullow Oil saga.


I will list the reasons I didn't vote for FG in my next post.




*I almost forgot

Beef Tribunal €35 million

Finlay and Lindsey enquiries €70 million

McCracken Tribunal €6.6 million

Mahon Tribunal €196 million

Travers Report €500 million (between refundable fees and legal costs)

Moriarity Tribunal €120 million

Morris Tribunal €70 million

Ryan Report €125 million

Barr Tribunal €18 million

Great list.

The waste of the FFG cartel is simply off the charts.

Idbatterim

more FFG and what do we get, more plans, about a plan... just deliver you bloody fools. I dont care who gets in, I want results and I and I am sure hundreds of thousands of others, wont be fobbed off with a "it takes time" youve had nine years of waffle, discussion, inaction, get it sorted! I disconnected the doorbell this election, if were are back here in 2/3 years, discussing the same bull****, I'm not short of punching them in the throat if they come to my door!

I was in the polling booth, thinking, can I actually give the FFG a vote, I just couldnt bring myself to do it! I had to remember, I was voting very near the dundrum luxury social housing, that myself and you are paying E1800 a month for a one bedroom for and thats when I though, these FFG morons, are going to try and scaremonger people about financial prudence and not to vote SF!!! That was the straw that broke the camels back!

Tacitus Kilgore

Idbatterim wrote: »

more FFG and what do we get, more plans, about a plan... just deliver you bloody fools. I dont care who gets in, I want results and I and I am sure hundreds of thousands of others, wont be fobbed off with a "it takes time" youve had nine years of waffle, discussion, inaction, get it sorted! I disconnected the doorbell this election, if were are back here in 2/3 years, discussing the same bull****, I'm not short of punching them in the throat if they come to my door!

How long are you going to give the next government to sort it?

Geuze

growleaves wrote: »

What's actually happened is, first off, that the median income is under 28k. The stagantion of wages *relative to inflation* has made everyone much poorer than anyone is willing to admit. National newspapers don't even report the median income (they give the mean) - let alone put it in context year-by-year, decade-by-decade relative to inflation.

The mean earnings of full-time workers is 47k, correct, but median earnings are lower, yes.

Median earnings are harder to find.

Note that earnings are not the same as incomes.

You seem to be referring to earnings, so I will stick with them.


I keep searching, and find:

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/annualearnings/

2018 annual earnings, across all employments (not workers)

Mean = 44,180
Median = 36,095

Again, note that a person can have two employments.


Methodology
All employments except as detailed below: employees earning less than €500 per annum, employments where the duration was less than two weeks in the year, secondary employments earning less than €4,000 per annum, extremely high earnings values, observations with missing employer and employee reference numbers employment activity in NACE sectors A, T and U.
Eurostat data suggest

jimmycrackcorm

ratracer wrote: »

We train plenty of doctors, but then allow them to run a private practice as well as getting paid for a public service in the same hospital. I think private patients should not be allowed to be seen in a public hospital, as a private patient. This two-tier system is crazy. Public hospitals should not have private beds.

Agree somewhat but I have to point out that private patients also pay taxes and are equally entitled to those beds just as everyone who doesn't pay.

Also private health subsidises the hospital's. If I go to hospital and get seen as a pubic patient then at most I can get charged is 80 per night up to the limit. However if I say I wish to use my private health insurance, I'll be charged through my provider 800 per night.

So I'm sure that the HSE doesn't want to lose this nice earner.

Sinn Feins tax policies are also going to make it more difficult to hire consultants, another nice side effect for those who want the health system to be improved.

Idbatterim

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

How long are you going to give the next government to sort it?

they just need to sort the fundamental problems, I expect us to start making moves in the right direction, quite quickly, note I said move in the right direction, you cant solve this cluster**** thats been created, over night!

But how long do FG want to pretend to the public to "fix" things, they have no intention of "fixing" because to "fix" something for some of us, they would be "breaking" things for the homeowners that want rising prices, upsetting the banks, their mates, the vulture funds. They are all homeowners, they want their property to increase in value, creates a bit of a conflict of interest doesnt it?

Danno

I didn't vote SF as my first preference, but they got one from me because:

No further increases in Carbon Taxes was a hugely important issue to me.
I thought Eoin O'Broín and Michael Fitzmaurice on the Monday night CB Live was very telling in how many independents and SF were against penalising the people who had no choice but to use some fossil fuels to commute, heat their homes and farm their land.

Every other party was committed to €100 per tonne of C02 regardless of the fact that no other alternatives exist. There is no second hand EV market which lets face it, the vast majority of the country can only afford a second-hand car.

freshpopcorn

I watched the Prime Time debate last Tuesday.
On the programme after "The Spin Room" they spoke to students from UCD.
They asked the student who was into green issues who spoke the best about green issues and she replied Mary Lou.
Mary Lou didn't come across the best in my opinion especially on that matter.

Ush1

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I watched the Prime Time debate last Tuesday.
On the programme after "The Spin Room" they spoke to students from UCD.
They asked the student who was into green issues who spoke the best about green issues and she replied Mary Lou.
Mary Lou didn't come across the best in my opinion especially on that matter.

I'm no fan of FF but as Martin described it, tantamount to climate change denial.

Ballso

Idbatterim wrote: »

more FFG and what do we get, more plans, about a plan... just deliver you bloody fools. I dont care who gets in, I want results and I and I am sure hundreds of thousands of others, wont be fobbed off with a "it takes time" youve had nine years of waffle, discussion, inaction, get it sorted! I disconnected the doorbell this election, if were are back here in 2/3 years, discussing the same bull****, I'm not short of punching them in the throat if they come to my door!

I was in the polling booth, thinking, can I actually give the FFG a vote, I just couldnt bring myself to do it! I had to remember, I was voting very near the dundrum luxury social housing, that myself and you are paying E1800 a month for a one bedroom for and thats when I though, these FFG morons, are going to try and scaremonger people about financial prudence and not to vote SF!!! That was the straw that broke the camels back!

If you think things are going to be any different in two years I've a bridge to sell you. SF/FF low tax, high spending policies are going to make things worse, not better.

Danno

Ush1 wrote: »

I'm no fan of FF but as Martin described it, tantamount to climate change denial.

Nobody denies there was/is/will be climate change.

Much of the issue is about taxing the public into oblivion via stealth carbon taxes to little or no avail.

Only 100 companies are responsible for 71% of all global carbon emissions.

But as we close down a handful of small peat burning stations, putting hundreds of jobs at risk while Germany and others are building more coal fired plants we are merely virtue-signalling.

Pure folly.

SusieBlue

Eric Cartman wrote: »

+1 million,

You also have a whole group of people who went to college, did a degree in origami and a masters in gender studies, died their hair blue, covered themselves in visible tattoos, spent their 20s smoking weed and working on and off in coffee shops and are entering their 30s with no partners, no savings, no career progression and are now giving out that they deserve to own a house within commuting distance of dublin off the councils back or a piddly amount mortgage.

This housing crisis is two fold, its a lack of supply for those who work and an overblown anger by people who havent performed at all or intentionally underperformed in life now wanting the same outcome as their parents who worked 40 hours a week and fought hard for what they have.

So basically the only people struggling with affording housing are dole scroungers & blue haired crusty feminists, and that's their own fault.
Got it. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Tacitus Kilgore

Idbatterim wrote: »

they just need to sort the fundamental problems, I expect us to start making moves in the right direction, quite quickly, note I said move in the right direction, you cant solve this cluster**** thats been created, over night!

But how long do FG want to pretend to the public to "fix" things, they have no intention of "fixing" because to "fix" something for some of us, they would be "breaking" things for the homeowners that want rising prices, upsetting the banks, their mates, the vulture funds. They are all homeowners, they want their property to increase in value, creates a bit of a conflict of interest doesnt it?

That's a rant, not an answer to the question.

Is it <6 months, is it <1 year, and what are the fundamental problems that can be sorted quickly?

This is such a quagmire of shite, and I think it is slightly naiive to think that any government can make serious inroads to what is a global situation (our housing situation is not endemic to Ireland by a long shot) in a short time frame. I do wish the left well though, as I voted for it.

jmayo

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I watched the Prime Time debate last Tuesday.
On the programme after "The Spin Room" they spoke to students from UCD.
They asked the student who was into green issues who spoke the best about green issues and she replied Mary Lou.
Mary Lou didn't come across the best in my opinion especially on that matter.

First thing most students it seems nowadays are fooking morons with regard the real world.
We can tax the rich to pay for everything, we can build houses for everyone, foreigners can live where they like in the world, but locals have to live in a village and share a car, we should not begrudge anyone coming here since we enslaved their ancestors and we should all be ashamed of our racism, we can be any gender we want and men and women are physically equal, we can all use public transport or buy electric cars, we must get rid of our agriculture and we can all eat quinoa or soya.
That is some of the tripe you now hear from students.

Ballso wrote: »

If you think things are going to be any different in two years I've a bridge to sell you. SF/FF low tax, high spending policies are going to make things worse, not better.

Feck off I am selling that bridge.

The sad thing is there appears to be huge cohort of especially young people that would now believe anything.

jimmycrackcorm

ratracer wrote: »

Regarding housing:

A lot of folks screaming for the got to build social housing on public land.
During the boom, for the purpose of ‘inclusiveness’, developers were required to allocate some of their developments for social/ affordable housing. This is still a requirement AFAIK, with the buyout option of donating equivalent money to the local authority in lieu of houses now removed.
When this policy was brought in, was it not too remove the percieved stigma of living in local authority housing estates? And are we now saying we want to go back to how it was in the 60/70/80’s and have LA’s just build loads and we’ll accept it?

The reality is that we will have to go back to building council estates. People will whine about inclusivity but the policy of requiring a percentage of private builds to be allocated for social purposes has been a costly failure.

blanch152

Geuze wrote: »

The mean earnings of full-time workers is 47k, correct, but median earnings are lower, yes.

Median earnings are harder to find.

Note that earnings are not the same as incomes.

You seem to be referring to earnings, so I will stick with them.


I keet searching, and find:

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/annualearnings/

2018 annual earnings, across all employments (not workers)

Mean = 44,180
Median = 36,095

Again, note that a person can have two employments.


Methodology
All employments except as detailed below: employees earning less than €500 per annum, employments where the duration was less than two weeks in the year, secondary employments earning less than €4,000 per annum, extremely high earnings values, observations with missing employer and employee reference numbers employment activity in NACE sectors A, T and U.
Eurostat data suggest

Both of those figures are likely to be understatements of both the mean and median earnings of full-time employees, as the methodology you cite does not state that part-time employees are not excluded.

Plumbthedepths

rockatansky wrote: »

So the point of this thread is, you post why you voted Sinn Fein and let other posters attack you?

That's the agenda from the OP or they would have given the protest option as part of the poll based on the thread title.

scrumqueen

I didn't vote SF but they did get a preference from me (albeit 4/5) but still. The candidate in my area was never going to get in, I knew this and he didn't, but still. I voted left in all five options.

I have previously voted FG too, for the record (back in 2011).

I have been working since I was 14, (so that's a good 17 years now paying my taxes) part time throughout my education secondary and third level. I have a Masters, I am in a permanent pensionable job. I would love to own my own house one day, house prices and rent are currently making that a fantasy.

I understand that health and housing cannot be fixed over night. I believe SF would be more committed to putting solutions in place than FG would.

FG are two years behind in their funding of Slaintecare.
Slaintecare!
The actual 10 year solution to reform and fix our health system, right there on a platter and they couldn't even commit to the phased funding of it.

They also have been throwing good money after bad with HAP payments rather than building affordable housing (by affordable I mean houses that can be built at cost on state land and can be sold for less than €300K).

I just cannot stand listening to FG bleating on about a recovery that did not reach most of us.

I don't think it is unreasonable to want decent services for my tax bill; which I don't mind as is or being increased, but f*ck ME FG have shown they just don't care about putting it in to services.

UnknownSpecies

Whatever about people voting for SF in the name of change.. how in the hell have the people decided FF should be forgiven so quickly?!