FG to just do nothing for the next 5 years.

christy c

Whelo79 wrote: »

https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/10/new-zealand-preparing-end-lockdown-success-coronavirus-battle-12536871/

This is how our government should have handled the Corona virus. An island country with a similar population as or own so a very appropriate comparison. Less than 1,000 infected and 1 death. And people will STILL main our government done/are doing a good job!

Yeah i agree, I'd say if you were to ask them privately they'd probably tell you of a few regrets.

However I'd say there are probably some people in the UK, US, Sweden, Brazil, etc. pointing at Ireland saying something similar to yourself. Does this excuse the mistakes? No, but things need to be taken in context.

mattser

Whelo79 wrote: »

They can do right, they have made plenty of right decisions over the last several weeks. Unfortunately many of those decisions were made too slowly and were accompanied by many wrong decisions.

Ok so. Now throw up a few of your posts from several weeks ago, suggesting where your expertise was guiding Govt and Med experts.

And where they failed to adhere your your advice.

efanton

Deleted User wrote: »

There is NO way someone newly qualified has the same experience as someone qualified 10, 20, 30 years before them, be they doctor, teacher, plumber or secretary.

read what I said again. I or the ariticle was not talking about newly qualified doctors and consultants.

https://www.rte.ie/news/health/2018/...o-consultants/

You do realise the main reason we cant attract doctors and consultants to Ireland is because FG insist on paying newly appointed doctor and consultants siginificantly less than their colleagues, despite being equally qualified and having similar work experience.

James Brown

efanton wrote: »

read what I said again. I or the ariticle was not talking about newly qualified doctors and consultants.

FG are in a tough spot. I've not criticised them in the response to Covid19 because a lot of governing parties were fumbling trying to marry keeping their economic system running while heeding medical advice. So things were slow in some areas but thankfully not as bad as they could have been.

It's also tough for FG as they need to be seen to adhere to medical advice regarding staffing and supplies while trying to justify and hopefully, from their perspective, claw things back to 'normal crisis standards after the pandemic passes.

Whelo79

mattser wrote: »

Ok so. Now throw up a few of your posts from several weeks ago, suggesting where your expertise was guiding Govt and Med experts.

And where they failed to adhere your your advice.

Have you confused me for a government advisor or someone who works for the Dept. Of Health? Why would the government be coming to me for advice?

I WAS questioning why we were allowing several hundred Italian fans travel for a cancelled rugby game. I WAS questioning why several thousand punters were being allowed travel back to Ireland from Cheltenham with zero checks or restrictions imposed on them. I WAS advocating for lockdown much earlier than happened. I WAS questioning why we were allowing our nursing homes to stay open to public access when we already knew this section of society were the most vunerable to the disease.

To me these 4 simple points, of which there are many more, do not require some form of expertise knowledge to realise the wrong decision was being made at the time. No hindsight was required here.

markodaly

Whelo79 wrote: »

Why is Dublin Port still open to holiday makers? This is scandalous.

https://extra.ie/2020/04/10/news/irish-news/ferry-passengers-lockdown-ireland

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I see the French turned back a private jet out of the UK full of holiday makers...why can't the government get their act together on this? So easy to do. Another lapse.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why would you believe one journalist over another?

Genuine question.

Returning to this 'story', it has now been totally and utterly debunked and we can consign the story of holiday makers from the UK entrying Ireland as 'Fake News'.

Over in the Covid-19 forum, this stuff gets you a thread ban.
People posting this stuff and taking at as fact, should be mindful when doing some drive by posting and leaving it there to fester.

https://www.facebook.com/ciaran.cannon/posts/10158143533638917

markodaly

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It would suit FG down to the ground to have another election.

100%

The only way is up really for them.
The last GE had their vote at historic lows, and this after 9 years of government, many of those years getting Ireland back on the road to recovery after the mess FF made. FG really only had money the past 3 years to do much of anything.

Even now, because of the election results they are still in government by default
and as a caretaker function, but that suits them to the ground. The public by and large think FG are doing a very currently given the latest poll.

Where are FF?
Where are SF?
Where are SD?
Where are the Greens?
Where are Labour?

No where.

If an election is called when its safe to do so, FG will be one of the big winners.
The losers will be the parties who enjoy campaigning but do **** all to actually try and go into government.

markodaly

efanton wrote: »

To be honest, I cant understand why they didnt opt for a new election when it is safe to do so three weeks ago when Labour, SD's and the Greens rejected the idea of joining a FF/FG coalition.
What ever way the cookie crumbled they would definitely ended up with more seats in the Dail.

Now they will face questions over why nursing homes were so badly managed, and why they didn't have a coherent and achievable testing program.
Will those awkward questions be enough for them to lose seats I very much doubt it, in general I think everyone has to agree that thankfully the government followed best advice and got in with measures very quickly.

Opportunity missed as far as I am concerned, even though I would never vote for them.

You mean, call an election three weeks ago and have it.. the next few days, in the middle of a lockdown??

I do not think you have thought this through.

markodaly

Whelo79 wrote: »

https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/10/new-zealand-preparing-end-lockdown-success-coronavirus-battle-12536871/

This is how our government should have handled the Corona virus. An island country with a similar population as or own so a very appropriate comparison. Less than 1,000 infected and 1 death. And people will STILL main our government done/are doing a good job!

Are you suggesting that we closed the border between the republic and the North?

How would that have worked?

McMurphy

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Seems to be seriously annoying some here that you make any criticism of the current government. Youa re right there are a number of things they have gotten wrong in a largely well managed response to the crisis.

What they are trying to do is cast a spell that suggests FG are the ONLY party who could do this..All Hail FG! when in fact history shows we are an extremely good and dynamic country that coalesces against an outside threat. We did it to form the state and since after all, most recently with Brexit.
Any party could have managed this.

https://twitter.com/McMahonPhilly/status/1249624663522791425?s=19

Yurt2

It's called the 'green jersey effect'. Incumbent politicians love it as you can tap into patriotic fervor it but it will wear thin if it hasn't done so already.

There's only so many times you can Terminator 2 meme your way through a crisis before the public remember they're the same shower that bungled their way through screwup after screwup over the last two years before tanking at the pollbooth.

FrancieBrady

McMurphy wrote: »

https://twitter.com/McMahonPhilly/status/1249624663522791425?s=19

This 'green jersey' attitude will last for a while longer. Can start to see more and more people questioning the tweets of Harris and Holohan...for a time they were being hero worship.

NovemberWren

@markodaly. yes, it really does seem to me that 'FF made a mess.... of the Health service'... and that seem to have been down to pre-2011, when Mehaill Martin (yuk) was Minister for Health?

But, FG have had a very long time now to fix the basic tenet wrongs of Mehaill, - but have not.

If FF (unfortunately, 'get' in), they know where their [tenet] bodies are; and so, they will very much want the Health ministry; as an exercise is cosmetic screening off of their former, Deliberate, wrongs.
And they will manage to make it more unequal than ever before.

__________________________________


Pushers Out; Shinners In. Yeaaa!

smurgen

Hopefully Leo is watching Rte one tonight. Might help give him a small insight into why people weren't much into his RIC party.

efanton

markodaly wrote: »

You mean, call an election three weeks ago and have it.. the next few days, in the middle of a lockdown??

I do not think you have thought this through.

I already had said that we could not immediately have an election but would have wait until such time as it was safe.

When the Green's and Labour rejected joining the FF/FG coalition all FG had to do was call election and agree to the Greens proposal of a Unity government. From that point on FG were off the hook for anything that might go wrong, but still gained the credit for the initial response.

Idbatterim

Yurt! wrote: »

It's called the 'green jersey effect'. Incumbent politicians love it as you can tap into patriotic fervor it but it will wear thin if it hasn't done so already.

There's only so many times you can Terminator 2 meme your way through a crisis before the public remember they're the same shower that bungled their way through screwup after screwup over the last two years before tanking at the pollbooth.

we dont agree on everything Yurt, but you are right here, if anyone thinks, they can magic their way out of the abysmal failure of the last few years, LOL!

markodaly

efanton wrote: »

I already had said that we could not immediately have an election but would have wait until such time as it was safe.

So why did you call for an election to be called a few weeks ago?
You DO know the constitutional position on this, do you?

When the Green's and Labour rejected joining the FF/FG coalition all FG had to do was call election and agree to the Greens proposal of a Unity government. From that point on FG were off the hook for anything that might go wrong, but still gained the credit for the initial response.

The way I see, it if the Greens, Labour or the SD refuse point blank to enter government, they will lose seats in the next election, especially the SD's and the Greens.

A unity government is not going to happen. No one wants it, apart from the Greens and that includes SF by the way.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

This 'green jersey' attitude will last for a while longer. Can start to see more and more people questioning the tweets of Harris and Holohan...for a time they were being hero worship.

Is Holohan a member of FG?

efanton

markodaly wrote: »

So why did you call for an election to be called a few weeks ago?
You DO know the constitutional position on this, do you?

Nothing stopping the government calling an election this very minute.
Its obvious that this FF/FG coalition has no more support that the coalition attempted by SF. Neither had or will get, the numbers required to get a majority in the Dail.
In the meantime FG can make arrangements and get support from other parties to either continue 'as is' as a caretaker government for a fixed period , or if they cannot get support for that make arrangements for a temporary Unity government until it is safe for a general election to take place.

With regards the constitutional position on this, there is no provision for a hung Dail in the Constitution.
The president cannot dissolve the Dail unless advised to do so by the Taoiseach.
If the existing Taoiseach refuses to call for an election, and a new Taoiseach cannot be elected in the Dail, in theory we could be in a position where no new election ever takes place and FG remain the de facto government for Ireland for eternity.

markodaly

efanton wrote: »

Nothing stopping the government calling an election this very minute.

There is. Covid-19
How can we hold an election right now, in the middle of this pandemic?
You do know that if the Dail is disbanded that per the constitution, an election needs to be held within 5 weeks.

That is why no one in their right mind would go ahead and disband the Dail.

Its obvious that this FF/FG coalition has no more support that the coalition attempted by SF.

It is not obvious at all actually.

In the meantime FG can make arrangements and get support from other parties to either continue 'as is' as a caretaker government for a fixed period , or if they cannot get support for that make arrangements for a temporary Unity government until it is safe for a general election to take place.

So, you want the other parties to support the caretaker government but not a new government. Makes perfect sense :pac:
Why would FG agree to such a thing?

With regards the constitutional position on this, there is no provision for a hung Dail in the Constitution.
The president cannot dissolve the Dail unless advised to do so by the Taoiseach.
If the existing Taoiseach refuses to call for an election, and a new Taoiseach cannot be elected in the Dail, in theory we could be in a position where no new election ever takes place and FG remain the de facto government for Ireland for eternity.

Tin foil hat stuff, because a government governs. They need to pass legislation, budgets etc... The FG caretaker government has 35 Dail seats, so they cannot pass any laws or legislation by themselves. The other 125 TD's or a majority of them can easily sit in the Dail and vote for a new Taoiseach and thus form a government or call an election immediately. FG cannot hold onto power forever, but it sure does make a lovely story and conspiracy theory.

Again, you have not thought this through.

efanton

markodaly wrote: »

There is. Covid-19
How can we hold an election right now, in the middle of this pandemic?


That is why no one in their right mind would go ahead and disband the Dail.



It is not obvious at all actually.



So, you want the other parties to support the caretaker government but not a new government. Makes perfect sense :pac:
Why would FG agree to such a thing?




Again, you have not thought this through.

Of course I have, you are just avoiding the inconvenient truth that this virus outbreak is a convenient mechanism for a government to cling to power.

You really think that we will have a government by the end of the week, next week the end of yet another month when Leo has flat out refused the involvement of independents to make up the numbers for a coalition?

As it stands at the moment FG have absolutely no mandate to continue in government, they are simply caretakers until a new government has been elected.
What is wrong with them getting agreement from other parties for them to continue for a time limited period? If they cant do that then obviously they are not doing the fantastic job you think they are doing.

If they cant get agreement to continue as is for a fixed period, what is the problem with having a unity government? As you rightly point out the constitution clearly states that if the Dail is disbanded that per the constitution, an election needs to be held within 5 weeks.
A simple amendment to extend the 5 week limit on a once of basis would be the obvious solution, but this would require a referendum, if we cant safely hold a general election then how could we possibly hold a referendum.
It is obvious but not written in the Constitution that those writing it envisaged a period of not more than a matter of a few months between one elected government and the next. Obviously they never foresaw a situations where an election or referendum could not be held.

Its likely that it will not be safe to have an election before the next budget and equally likely that new legislation will be required before then. What do you think will happen then? Do you think the other parties have to support a government with no mandate, that they have to put democracy aside because it suits FG. Do we have to wait for a constitutional crisis to occur before action is taken?

Tin foil hat stuff, because a government governs. They need to pass legislation, budgets etc... The FG caretaker government has 35 Dail seats, so they cannot pass any laws or legislation by themselves. The other 125 TD's or a majority of them can easily sit in the Dail and vote for a new Taoiseach and thus form a government or call an election immediately. FG cannot hold onto power forever, but it sure does make a lovely story and conspiracy theory.

Are you suggesting that we allow an un-elected government remain in place with no mandate whatsoever? Why should any party agree to that?
AS I have previously explained but you conveniently avoided that Constitution has no provision whatsoever for a hung Dail. If the Taoiseach refuses to call an election, and the Dail is hung, neither the President or the other parties have the power to call another election.

Tin foil hat or not, the reality is if this FF/FG coalition fails, the Dail is hung so that no Taoiseach can be elected, and Leo refuses to call a general election the result is FG becomes the De Facto government of Ireland for as long as Leo wants to remain Taoiseach.
THat's not fairy land stuff that's fact.

There isnt even the alternative of for all parties other than FG to vote for a Taoiseach whose only action would be to immediately tender their resignation to the President so a new election could take place being that no election could take place within 5 weeks.

If FF/FG cant get their coalition act together and that is looking to be very unlikely, then it could well turn out that FG end up putting SF in government. The only way to remove FG would be a Unity government of all other parties excluding FG.

markodaly

efanton wrote: »

Of course I have, you are just avoiding the inconvenient truth that this virus outbreak is a convenient mechanism for a government to cling to power.

As I said, it is very very very easy for the other 125 TD's and political parties to remove FG from its caretaker position. It could be done tomorrow if they want.

You really think that we will have a government by the end of the week, next week the end of yet another month when Leo has flat out refused the involvement of independents to make up the numbers for a coalition?

Not sure when we are going to have a new government to be honest. Maybe sometime in May. Its a work in progress. But neither do you have any idea of the outcome as well.

As it stands at the moment FG have absolutely no mandate to continue in government, they are simply caretakers until a new government has been elected.

Agreed

What is wrong with them getting agreement from other parties for them to continue for a time limited period? If they cant do that then obviously they are not doing the fantastic job you think they are doing.

Because its a waste of time and energy. What exactly would that achieve? As I said, nobody else wants a unity government apart from the Greens, and that includes Labour, the SDs and SF.

FG it seems would rather spend its time trying to form an actual government, one that will last 4-5 years, rather than a few months.

If they cant get agreement to continue as is for a fixed period, what is the problem with having a unity government? As you rightly point out the constitution clearly states that if the Dail is disbanded that per the constitution, an election needs to be held within 5 weeks.

Again, what would it achieve? What problem will it fix, because once the Unity phase is over, you are still stuck in the sense that you need an actual government? It sounds good in theory but the one thinks about it, the more it doesn't make sense.

A simple amendment to extend the 5 week limit on a once of basis would be the obvious solution, but this would require a referendum, if we cant safely hold a general election then how could we possibly hold a referendum.

It is obvious but not written in the Constitution that those writing it envisaged a period of not more than a matter of a few months between one elected government and the next. Obviously they never foresaw a situations where an election or referendum could not be held.

You tell me. You were the one proposing we have an election now.

But I suppose the penny is dropping for you. It makes zero sense to call an election now. Not only that but its dangerous.

Its likely that it will not be safe to have an election before the next budget and equally likely that new legislation will be required before then. What do you think will happen then? Do you think the other parties have to support a government with no mandate, that they have to put democracy aside because it suits FG. Do we have to wait for a constitutional crisis to occur before action is taken?

No, I would imagine that either a government in the form of FF + FG and 'other' is agreed on. Or if that fails, once its safe to do so, a new election is called for the end of summer sometime.
In the meantime, the caretaker government continues as is.

Are you suggesting that we allow an un-elected government remain in place with no mandate whatsoever? Why should any party agree to that?
AS I have previously explained but you conveniently avoided that Constitution has no provision whatsoever for a hung Dail. If the Taoiseach refuses to call an election, and the Dail is hung, neither the President or the other parties have the power to call another election.

The government is a caretaker one, this is the key point you are forgetting in your haste to try and solve a problem that does not exist.

The other parties, of course, do have the power to call an election since they amount to 125 TD's. An easy majority. They can elect a new Taoiseach and then call an election.
There is a very very very easy out there for them. Constitutional crisis averted

Tin foil hat or not, the reality is if this FF/FG coalition fails, the Dail is hung so that no Taoiseach can be elected, and Leo refuses to call a general election the result is FG becomes the De Facto government of Ireland for as long as Leo wants to remain Taoiseach.
THat's not fairy land stuff that's fact.

Eh just no. Again, see above. Its very easy to remove Leo from office. Elect a new Taoiseach and call an election!
You are trying on some weird narrative that this is all some deep state plot from FG to take over power indefinitely. Its nonsense of course.

There isnt even the alternative of for all parties other than FG to vote for a Taoiseach whose only action would be to immediately tender their resignation to the President so a new election could take place being that no election could take place within 5 weeks.

What are you on about? Of course there is. If the Dail sits, then a new Taoiseach can be elected. This is not rocket science or who killed JFK $hit.

If FF/FG cant get their coalition act together and that is looking to be very unlikely, then it could well turn out that FG end up putting SF in government. The only way to remove FG would be a Unity government of all other parties excluding FG.

So be it. As I said, FG makes up 35 out of 160 TD's. They cannot control or dictate what the other 125 TD's do or do not.

If the rest of them get together and vote for a SF led government, not much FG can do about that, now can it.

Yurt2

This is not a comment on the content of the above post, but can the above poster please not do the wall of quote/reply/quote/reply/quote/reply?

It's an eyesore and borderline unreadable.

efanton

markodaly wrote: »

As I said, it is very very very easy for the other 125 TD's and political parties to remove FG from its caretaker position. It could be done tomorrow if they want.

How would you propose that be possible?
If FF and FG cannot form a government, and neither would contemplate being a partner of SF explain to me where the numbers are to form an alternative government? Some of the independents would not be consider left of centre so how would you expect them to support such a government.

If FF and FG cannot form a government and neither can SF what do you see as the inevitable outcome?

markodaly

efanton wrote: »

How would you propose that be possible?

Very easy.

All non-FG TD's get into a room and agree on who the next Taoiseach is.

If FF and FG cannot form a government, and neither would contemplate being a partner of SF explain to me where the numbers are to form an alternative government? Some of the independents would not be consider left of centre so how would you expect them to support such a government.

If FG and FG can get to 81 TD's then a government can be formed. If they cannot get those numbers, well I guess we are in new election territory.

If FF and FG cannot form a government and neither can SF what do you see as the inevitable outcome?

Well then to answer a question you have already asked but worded differently, there would be an election.

Wanderer78

Ffg will get it over the line, everyone should relax

mattser

Whelo79 wrote: »

Have you confused me for a government advisor or someone who works for the Dept. Of Health? Why would the government be coming to me for advice?

I WAS questioning why we were allowing several hundred Italian fans travel for a cancelled rugby game. I WAS questioning why several thousand punters were being allowed travel back to Ireland from Cheltenham with zero checks or restrictions imposed on them. I WAS advocating for lockdown much earlier than happened. I WAS questioning why we were allowing our nursing homes to stay open to public access when we already knew this section of society were the most vunerable to the disease.

To me these 4 simple points, of which there are many more, do not require some form of expertise knowledge to realise the wrong decision was being made at the time. No hindsight was required here.

So no posts, then. Wise after the event like one or two others in here. Hindsight indeed.

Snow Garden

Leaving my own preferences aside, I think FF and FG would be insane to go into government right now. It simply wont end well.
I know the numbers don't leave many options but they would be in government during one of the worst recessions in decades.
SF probably know this too and couldn't form a government no matter how they try.
TDs are a funny lot though - most only think of themselves and a few years of gravy train. It is very difficult to ask them to risk
their seat in another general election especially if they are new TDs or just scraped in.
Perhaps Martin and Leo just want one more term and then they are out.
I think a national government now would be the ideal choice but it probably wouldn't last a year.

FrancieBrady

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Ffg will get it over the line, everyone should relax

I'm kind of coming to the opinion that may be for the best. Let one of the original scenarios play out but now in the context of a period of recovery.
The recovery will just speed up the process of getting rid of one of these powerswap parties, either by merger or decline.

blanch152

smurgen wrote: »

Christ it's like FFG are finally gonna pull the finger out and start doing something. After the kicking they got from SF it looks like after ten years of inaction they might actually start to try tackle the bigger issues the country is facing. We live in hope!

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/capital-spending-deemed-key-to-ff-fg-coalition-government-1.4227435

If they got a kicking from Sinn Fein, why aren’t Sinn Fein forming a government?

Is it because nobody will talk to Sinn Fein?