FG to just do nothing for the next 5 years.

James Brown

christy c wrote: »

Usual rubbish, with the added bonus of you criticising me for using soundbites

In the middle of a pandemic, when it seemed possible that doctors would have to leave people to die because of a lack of beds and equipment- people like yourself would be whinging about Dinny rather than getting on with securing the private hospitals.

And there are genuine criticisms of FG, but gets lost when some choose to focus on boogeymen.

You are a hypocrite on this Christy. You rolled in all shouts with your head in the party sand. I gave reasons for my opinion. Hardly soundbites, but that's FG 101 for dismissing criticism isn't it?

No, not at all.

Boogeymen like who? I named the contractors and voiced criticism and concern based on FG's relationship and reputation.

Your comments today are all mouth and no trousers like Varadkar. Thankfully the professionals are steering us on this, but FG's input is the Dinny and Larry deal were HSE workers are volunteering their time and we are paying almost double than the UK for private beds.
It's funny how you seem to be happy to ignore this when FG will be the first to start clawing us back to the old regular national crises citing no money. Hypocrisy.

christy c

Bowie wrote: »

You are a hypocrite on this Christy. You rolled in all shouts with your head in the party sand. I gave reasons for my opinion. Hardly soundbites, but that's FG 101 for dismissing criticism isn't it?

No, not at all.

Boogeymen like who? I named the contractors and voiced criticism and concern based on FG's relationship and reputation.

Your comments today are all mouth and no trousers like Varadkar. Thankfully the professionals are steering us on this, but FG's input is the Dinny and Larry deal were HSE workers are volunteering their time and we are paying almost double than the UK for private beds.
It's funny how you seem to be happy to ignore this when FG will be the first to start clawing us back to the old regular national crises citing no money. Hypocrisy.

"Head in the party sand" and "waving the Fine Gael flag" is just some of the rubbish you are posting. I gave credit where it is due IMO for securing the hospitals so quickly, but you focus on Larry and Dinny, as if there is a multitude of other private hospitals they could have used.

None of us know the intricacies of how the price was arrived at, and it could turn out we end up overpaying, but given the urgency at the time this was not the most important thing. The majority of governments will be running huge deficits, not comparable to regular times.

I'm actually getting fed up of FG (know it doesn't suit your agenda), I think they're getting too close to SF and FF policy wise. So will be looking for someone along the lines of the PDs to vote for, if anyone does emerge from the ashes.

efanton

christy c wrote: »

"Head in the party sand" and "waving the Fine Gael flag" is just some of the rubbish you are posting. I gave credit where it is due IMO for securing the hospitals so quickly, but you focus on Larry and Dinny, as if there is a multitude of other private hospitals they could have used.

None of us know the intricacies of how the price was arrived at, and it could turn out we end up overpaying, but given the urgency at the time this was not the most important thing. The majority of governments will be running huge deficits, not comparable to regular times.

I'm actually getting fed up of FG (know it doesn't suit your agenda), I think they're getting too close to SF and FF policy wise. So will be looking for someone along the lines of the PDs to vote for, if anyone does emerge from the ashes.

But what exactly have they been used for? as I understand it they have been completely under utilised. That's good in respect that its probable that the government were expecting things to be far worse than they are but a terrible waste of money when we see this epidemic ripping through nursing homes causing in my opinion needless deaths.
Why isnt the government using that additional capacity to segregate residents in nursing homes? Do we have to wait a few more weeks until virtually every nursing home has an outbreak for that extra capacity to be used?

The problem is as I see it there has been no joint up thinking on behalf of the FG government. As always their solution to virtually every single problem in the country is to pass it on to the private sector in the hopes that the problem goes away and they can wash their hands of it.
Why spend €345 million on additional capacity if it is not being used. Why the secrecy over the contract they signed with the private hospitals unless its potentially yet another very bad deal for Joe Public Mr Tax payer?

Surely at this stage there should be a plan in place for every contingency.
In the first few weeks you could forgive any government making mistakes, but now months later it still seems as if they are making things up on the fly.
It appears they wait for a problem occur before they even consider what they will do, and while that is happening the problem gets bigger.

christy c

^^^^ I dont know the answer to your question, you may get more useful replies on the main Covid 19 forum.

I understood originally that the were obtained to deal with the "surge" like we saw in Italy and Spain where hospitals looked overcrowded to crazy levels.

Mortelaro

According to a private consultant from the Bon Secur in Cork on morning Ireland this morning
He is doing non Covid public patients in a non Covid 19 setting in that Private hospital for the HSE
He is being paid the public rate but has no private income now but has costs that he has to keep paying relating to his private practice
He said he was doing this out of a public duty
While he is on a public contract,he is not allowed private patients

Shefwedfan

The private hospital so far have been used for treatments of people not with covid so they can get treatment without going to a public hospital and getting infection

Mortelaro

Correct

efanton

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The private hospital so far have been used for treatments of people not with covid so they can get treatment without going to a public hospital and getting infection

Thanks for answering that. I wasnt aware of what the contract with private hospitals entailed.

Must give my GP a ring. I have a torn tendon in my left arm (I'm left handed) and havent been able to lift it for about 7 weeks now. He refereed me to Croom Orthopaedic Hospital but I havent heard a word since.
I thought I would have to wait till this covid outbreak had passed, and by then I would be worried that it would probably be to late to do anything.

FrancieBrady

Good to see someone is pointing out the hypocrisy.
https://twitter.com/ElaineByrne/status/1254829528075173889

smurgen

christy c wrote: »

"Head in the party sand" and "waving the Fine Gael flag" is just some of the rubbish you are posting. I gave credit where it is due IMO for securing the hospitals so quickly, but you focus on Larry and Dinny, as if there is a multitude of other private hospitals they could have used.

None of us know the intricacies of how the price was arrived at, and it could turn out we end up overpaying, but given the urgency at the time this was not the most important thing. The majority of governments will be running huge deficits, not comparable to regular times.

I'm actually getting fed up of FG (know it doesn't suit your agenda), I think they're getting too close to SF and FF policy wise. So will be looking for someone along the lines of the PDs to vote for, if anyone does emerge from the ashes.

Of course they got the hospitals quickly when they were way overpaying for what it should have cost. The hospital owners probably took the hand off them.

Shefwedfan

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Good to see someone is pointing out the hypocrisy.
https://twitter.com/ElaineByrne/status/1254829528075173889

Yes and SF are worse :P


Not sure what the point is

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Good to see someone is pointing out the hypocrisy.
https://twitter.com/ElaineByrne/status/1254829528075173889

I'm surprised you didn't mention it Francie. Well I'm not actually TBH.

FrancieBrady

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Yes and SF are worse :P


Not sure what the point is

The point is they are hypocrites. High moral ground has been excavated from under them by themselves.

christy c

smurgen wrote: »

Of course they got the hospitals quickly when they were way overpaying for what it should have cost. The hospital owners probably took the hand off them.

What should it have cost? Show your workings please. Given that we were the price takers

efanton

christy c wrote: »

What should it have cost? Show your workings please. Given that we were the price takers

Well considering the private hospitals are not being asked to treat people with the virus, would it not have been reasonable to refer patients to these hospitals and pay for treatment as and when it was required?

THe current situation is just crazy.
It like a millionaire walking in to a hotel and booking every room in the entire hotel because they dont want their sleep disturbed. You can do it if you have money to burn, but its terrible value for money.
The government doesnt have money to burn, the debt they are building up because of the virus is horrendous already, most of it cant be avoided, but there is no need to be literally throwing it away.

christy c

efanton wrote: »

Well considering the private hospitals are not being asked to treat people with the virus, would it not have been reasonable to refer patients to these hospitals and pay for treatment as and when it was required?

THe current situation is just crazy.
It like a millionaire walking in to a hotel and booking every room in the entire hotel because they dont want their sleep disturbed. You can do it if you have money to burn, but its terrible value for money.
The government doesnt have money to burn, the debt they are building up because of the virus is horrendous already, most of it cant be avoided, but there is no need to be literally throwing it away.

I was looking for figures, I'll hang on for that poster to reply with them.

This thing is more important than having sleep disturbed, stupid analogy.

efanton

christy c wrote: »

I was looking for figures, I'll hang on for that poster to reply with them.

This thing is more important than having sleep disturbed, stupid analogy.

No its not. It actually a very relevant analogy.
The government is paying for every single bed in every private hospital with no expectation of using them all.

I could understand them block booking the private hospitals for a short period until we got beyond the peak but they have a contract for an entire year.

You are looking for numbers, and you already know that the government has already refused to reveal the details of the contract and how much this will cost.
What we do know is that it is going to cost a minimum of €345 million.
We also know there are only 1,926 total beds in private hospitals.

some simple arithmetic
The government has agreed to pay at a minimum €179,127 per bed until the end of the year. That's approximately €22,390 per bed per month, or approximately €5.600 per bed per week

Now explain to me how that could possibly be good value for money especially as many of these beds will never be used?

https://www.hse.ie/eng/services/publications/hospitals/an-integrated-health-system-for-ireland.html

Mortelaro

The privates are contracted to treat Covid
But probably haven't had to
Theres 19 of them and if I'm remembering correctly the state has them for 3 months for 115 million a month
That's 6 million a month each
Most of them seem to make a profit of about a million a month normally as of 2018
I dont know what their costs are a month but millions I'd imagine going on their turn over and that profit

Shefwedfan

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The point is they are hypocrites. High moral ground has been excavated from under them by themselves.

Michael Lowry will have a long time to run up the list of "problems" that SF have,......

christy c

efanton wrote: »

No its not. It actually a very relevant analogy.
The government is paying for every single bed in every private hospital with no expectation of using them all.

I could understand them block booking the private hospital for a short period until we got beyond the peak but they have a contract for an entire year.

You are looking for numbers, and you already know that the government has already refused to reveal the details of the contract and how much this will cost.
What we do know is that it is going to cost a minimum of €345 million.
We also know there are only 1,926 total beds in private hospitals.

some simple arithmetic
The government has agreed to pay at a minimum €179,127 per bed until the end of the year. That's approximately €22,390 per bed per month, or approximately €5.600 per bed per week

Now explain to me how that could possibly be good value for money especially as many of these beds will never be used?

https://www.hse.ie/eng/services/publications/hospitals/an-integrated-health-system-for-ireland.html

The poster mentioned that we are paying more than it should cost, I'm asking how much it should cost. If you can provide details of how much it should cost work away, if not I'll wait for the reply to my original question.

Remember this was arranged at a time when people were dying for lack of treatment in Spain and Italy. Could it have been handled better? Probably.

FrancieBrady

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Michael Lowry will have a long time to run up the list of "problems" that SF have,......

It's hypocrisy Shefwed and well you know it.

Mortelaro

Mortelaro wrote: »

The privates are contracted to treat Covid
But probably haven't had to
Theres 19 of them and if I'm remembering correctly the state has them for 4 months for 115 million a month
That's 6 million a month each
Most of them seem to make a profit of about a million a month normally as of 2018
I dont know what their costs are a month but millions I'd imagine going on their turn over and that profit

They were contracted to treat non-covid,the thinking being,was if main hospiteals would become covid only if necessary,thankfully that hasmt come to pass


At present they treat cancer patients in the private hospiteals (and presumably others who are immune suppressed??),state has signed contract,hopefully wont need extending for a 2nd wave in winter,but should honour the contracts imo

Mortelaro

efanton wrote: »

No its not. It actually a very relevant analogy.
The government is paying for every single bed in every private hospital with no expectation of using them all.

I could understand them block booking the private hospitals for a short period until we got beyond the peak but they have a contract for an entire year.

You are looking for numbers, and you already know that the government has already refused to reveal the details of the contract and how much this will cost.
What we do know is that it is going to cost a minimum of €345 million.
We also know there are only 1,926 total beds in private hospitals.

some simple arithmetic
The government has agreed to pay at a minimum €179,127 per bed until the end of the year. That's approximately €22,390 per bed per month, or approximately €5.600 per bed per week

Now explain to me how that could possibly be good value for money especially as many of these beds will never be used?

https://www.hse.ie/eng/services/publications/hospitals/an-integrated-health-system-for-ireland.html

Just 2 things
The contract is for 3 months not a year
The government has only an option for a year if they want it

Also the hospitals charge vhi etc 500 to 1000+ a day for those beds

efanton

Mortelaro wrote: »

The privates are contracted to treat Covid
But probably haven't had to
Theres 19 of them and if I'm remembering correctly the state has them for 3 months for 115 million a month
That's 6 million a month each
Most of them seem to make a profit of about a million a month normally as of 2018
I dont know what their costs are a month but millions I'd imagine going on their turn over and that profit

Then its even worse than I calculated. I was under the impression that the €345 million was for the 8 months until the end of the year not a 3 month period.

My previous calculations were based on a 8 month period.

James Brown

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Yes and SF are worse :P


Not sure what the point is

Shefwedfan, TBF, do you see it now? Someone making a fair point regarding the hypocrisy or more aptly pointing out the faux moral-ism of FG and FF and look how you respond.
You knew what the point was otherwise what do you mean by 'worse'?

christy c wrote: »

What should it have cost? Show your workings please. Given that we were the price takers

Also worth looking at the cost per bed per month being paid by the HSE. Approx €44k per month in Ireland vs approx €10k per month in the UK.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/health-pharma/who-owns-private-hospitals-behind-state-s-115m-a-month-deal-1.4232736

I don't care who anyone votes for but they must understand why folk think there may be a bad deal here and accept the players involved leave a bad taste.

christy c

Bowie wrote: »

I don't care who anyone votes for but they must understand why folk think there may be a bad deal here and accept the players involved leave a bad taste.

Doesn't answer my question, I was told we were paying more than it should have cost. That's just telling me the UK are paying less.

Look I wouldn't trust Dinny as far as I'd throw him, but some cream themselves when they hear his name.

Jinglejangle69

Love the tin foil water meters give you cancer brigade.

Always a conspiracy against them.

As if Leo and Denis o brien met in some shed with this grand masterplan to make money through shady deals during a pandemic.

Jesus lads, you really need to put the hats down and put your political beliefs aside for now.

Is all you do is to try to find some mad theory against FG just to have a pop?

Put up your credible links about Leo doing shady deals or grow up and get a life.

efanton

Revised numbers.

The government has agreed to pay at a minimum €179,127 per bed for the next 3 months.

That's approximately €20,000 per month per bed and approx €5,000 per bed per week.

Mortelaro said

Also the hospitals charge vhi etc 500 to 1000+ a day for those beds

If that is the case the government is actually paying the private hospital far more then they would earn in normal business practice. No private hospital runs at maximum capacity, they always have beds empty.

As the government has refused to reveal the full terms of the contract, its reasonable to assume there will be extra charges on top of that.

Mortelaro

efanton wrote: »

Then its even worse than I calculated. I was under the impression that the €345 million was for the 8 months until the end of the year not a 3 month period.

My previous calculations were based on a 8 month period.

It depends
If we had the feared surge it would have been very good value and a Godsend
It would not have been prudent to be without them
Secondly see the cost of those beds to the insurance companies
The HSE is getting them for A LOT less

Its effectively partly an insurance policy for the State that we now have them as an overcapacity

Jinglejangle69

Mortelaro wrote: »

It depends
If we had the feared surge it would have been very good value and a Godsend
It would not have been prudent to be without them
Secondly see the cost of those beds to the insurance companies
The HSE is getting them for A LOT less

Its effectively partly an insurance policy for the State that we now have them as an overcapacity

You can bet your whole life, family and house that if there was a bed capacity issue and people died then the comrades here would be the first out of the traps giving out the government didn't secure beds and let people die in purpose.

Jesus they would actually depress you.

4 stooges.