FG to just do nothing for the next 5 years.

smurgen

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You could say that Mother and child homes existed because families didn’t want to deal with their unmarried, pregnant child and Nursing homes exist because families don’t want to deal with their elderly parents. So, asking “sure where were their families” is a fair question but one that many won’t want to answer. Personal responsibility and all that jazz.

People have parents in their assuming that the homes are regulated correctly by HIQA, to whom homes pay fees to. I reckon if people had know the lack of planning, preparation, and assessment by HIQA ahead of this pandemic they would have taken family home where possible.

As of at least April 19th HIQA had assessors had not gone into homes to assess the preparedness for Covid https://www.rte.ie/amp/1132460/

On April 21st HIQA sent a questionnaire to ask nursing homes about their level of preparedness weeks into the crisis.

McMurphy

is_that_so wrote: »

In a new election FG will unquestionably rebound off this and FF can gain as well. That means probable lost seats for the Greens and it's better to go down for what you did do than for what you didn't.

I think there's a lot of false hope out there by FGers hanging on the back of this pandemic tbh, while there's no question they handled some aspects of it very well, they dropped the ball in numerous places too.

Heard the case of Leo and Simon trying to tell the public that the extension to lockdown was in some way due to them (the public) breaking the rules - Simon accused us of becoming complacent and lax being discussed on yesterday's SOR podcast, the panel (with the exception of Colm Brophy FG) were all in agreement that all they were doing was trying to put us on some kind of naughty step to try and divert from their own failings, targets missed ref testings and tracing, failure to react in the nursing homes, and it was quite aptly described as "ethically and morally wrong" to do so.

Mark Paul from the Irish times went on to point out that leo was basically telling the Irish people that lockdown was having to be extended for two or three weeks, due to the Irish peoples bad behaviour, and then coincidentally Paul Reid from the HSE came out and told us that they wouldn't get their testing ramped up for two or three weeks.

The chances eh?

The Irish people don't seem to like it when folk pee down their backs and try and tell them it's raining.


I'm not so sure I share your optimism tbh.

Edgware

is_that_so wrote: »

Most of the red lines for the Greens are doable. If they are not addressed in government they can walk. There is an absence of that concept of political maturity even if some of them just think it's our way or the high road. I can understand their reticence on the grounds of fear and principle but it a good time to show what they can do.

In a new election FG will unquestionably rebound off this and FF can gain as well. That means probable lost seats for the Greens and it's better to go down for what you did do than for what you didn't.

How could there possibly be an election in the present circumstances which are likely to prevail into 2021?
In any case if the Greens walk away, showing their political immaturity and inability to negotiate a compromise, they should be wiped out at the next election
Soc Dems, P.B.P. etc can join them. They have nothing to offer
The one positive thing after Dail and Seanad elections is that we don't have to listen to Coppinger whining on.

McMurphy

Edgware wrote: »

How could there possibly be an election in the present circumstances which are likely to prevail into 2021?
In any case if the Greens walk away, showing their political immaturity and inability to negotiate a compromise, they should be wiped out at the next election
Soc Dems, P.B.P. etc can join them. They have nothing to offer
The one positive thing after Dail and Seanad elections is that we don't have to listen to Coppinger whining on.

We cannot have a caretaker govt for the foreseeable either.

You reckon a ragtag dolly mixture of independents will be brought in to get s govt formation over the line - I'm saying if the greens bail (and that's how it looks to be heading) they are really left with two options.

National government incoming?

smurgen

smurgen wrote: »

People have parents in their assuming that the homes are regulated correctly by HIQA, to whom homes pay fees to. I reckon if people had know the lack of planning, preparation, and assessment by HIQA ahead of this pandemic they would have taken family home where possible.

As of at least April 19th HIQA had assessors had not gone into homes to assess the preparedness for Covid https://www.rte.ie/amp/1132460/

On April 21st HIQA sent a questionnaire to ask nursing homes about their level of preparedness weeks into the crisis.

I don’t think that people need HIQA to tell them how well or not a nursing home is run. They can see for themselves. Most are very well run. Some less so.

No health authority in the World could have been prepared for Covid-19. From some posts, you’d think that Leo and Simon were responsible for it reaching Ireland!

The situations for the elderly are tragic. Even for the ones at home with their families. They are so restricted in who they get to meet and many fear ending their days isolated from their loved ones.

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

I don’t think that people need HIQA to tell them how well or not a nursing home is run. They can see for themselves. Most are very well run. Some less so. .

Jesus, did you read that after you typed it?

It took uncover journalists and secret cameras to reveal what was going on in some homes.
Stop bending so far over backwards to excuse would you?

Edgware

McMurphy wrote: »

We cannot have a caretaker govt for the foreseeable either.

You reckon a ragtag dolly mixture of independents will be brought in to get s govt formation over the line - I'm saying if the greens bail (and that's how it looks to be heading) they are really left with two options.

National government incoming?

Never underestimate F.F.s and S.F.s craving for power.
S.F. are there still and Martin could do an about turn "strictly in the national interest" of course.
"The country needs stability, we all must compromise, S.F has given certain undertakings" etc etc

Do a fair job for four years and hit an election with a voting pact.
Eliminate P.B.P. Greens, Labour and a share of Indos.
Don't write it off.

Mortelaro

Edgware wrote: »

Never underestimate F.F.s and S.F.s craving for power.
S.F. are there still and Martin could do an about turn "strictly in the national interest" of course.
"The country needs stability, we all must compromise, S.F has given certain undertakings" etc etc

Well I wouldn't say no to that
But I would laugh my absolute head off

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Jesus, did you read that after you typed it?

It took uncover journalists and secret cameras to reveal what was going on in some homes.
Stop bending so far over backwards to excuse would you?

My mother in law, who I was a Carer for, had to go into a nursing home for respite a few years ago, at the suggestion of the hospital where she’d been treated for pneumonia. So, yes. I know what I’m talking about and didn’t need an undercover journalist or secret camera to tell me that her care was not up to the expected level. A report was sent to HIQA.

McMurphy

Edgware wrote: »

Never underestimate F.F.s and S.F.s craving for power.
S.F. are there still and Martin could do an about turn "strictly in the national interest" of course.
"The country needs stability, we all must compromise, S.F has given certain undertakings" etc etc

You might have missed my earlier post where I queried the ongoing leadership roles of Varadkar, Martin and Ryan towards Christmas 2020?

If FF/SF were to happen, I cannot see it being by any other way than a leadership challenge against Martin. Either way, I think he's finished regardless.

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

My mother in law, who I was a Carer for, had to go into a nursing home for respite a few years ago, at the suggestion of the hospital where she’d been treated for pneumonia. So, yes. I know what I’m talking about and didn’t need an undercover journalist or secret camera to tell me that her care was not up to the expected level. A report was sent to HIQA.

Which in no way gets away from the fact that there is a lot of stuff that goes on that nobody could be aware of.

Have a trawl through RTE's archives and stop blaming the people.

Fann Linn

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Which in no way gets away from the fact that there is a lot of stuff that goes on that nobody could be aware of.

Have a trawl through RTE's archives and stop blaming the people.

The auld 'we all went mad' defence which FG are so fond of.

Edgware

Fann Linn wrote: »

The auld 'we all went mad' defence which FG are so fond of.

That lad with " the pint in each hand" really tore the arse out of it.

smurgen

Fann Linn wrote: »

The auld 'we all went mad' defence which FG are so fond of.

Exactly imagine people using the service are to blame and not those overseeing and licensing the provider of the service. If that was the case people wouldn't have been able to sue tobacco companies etc... "Sure everyone knew they were bad for you". Completely absolving responsibly while changing fees to be regulated and registered each year.

efanton

Edgware wrote: »

How could there possibly be an election in the present circumstances which are likely to prevail into 2021?
In any case if the Greens walk away, showing their political immaturity and inability to negotiate a compromise, they should be wiped out at the next election
Soc Dems, P.B.P. etc can join them. They have nothing to offer
The one positive thing after Dail and Seanad elections is that we don't have to listen to Coppinger whining on.

Its funny when other parties do something that doesn't suit FG they are politically immature.
What is politically immature is the Green actually believing that this FF/FG coalition will actually deliver on their Green policies.

Let be honest here, all FF/FG have said is yes we will consider your polices, and see if we can squeeze them into our program for government, without actually giving a commitment on anything.

If SF were in the position of needing just 10 more seats the problem would be the same. The reality is that once this epidemic has left this country the chances of any government actually being able to afford the Green policies or meet our current EU commitments on carbon emissions are virtually nill.

As always this is another issues that has been left to grow out of control by a FG government. Way back in 2011 SF were criticising FG for not even delivering on their own very modest yearly environmental targets warning that Ireland faced significant fines for missing targets in the years ahead. Now having done very little we as a country are faced with having to do to far too much in far too short a time in order to meet existing targets.
The problem is FG are in complete denial of any failure they may have made. Instead of committing to some policy changes that can be achieved they will still commit to nothing that involves capital expenditure.

The reality is the opposite of what you clam, the Green's would be politically immature to join a coalition without firm commitments on both policies and spending.




AS for this country cant have an election, why not?
Obviously we cant open polling stations and have elections in one day but we have a postal voting system that could be extended.

If the Green refuse to join the FF/FG coalition there always the option of the Unity government that would be totally accountable and would be able to revise budgets and enact new law as and when required,

What happens in June or July when some government departments will already have spent their entire budgets for the year. Without a functioning Dail no vote can take place to increase those budgets

The Department of Social Protection is expected to reach its spending limit by June, according to parliamentary correspondence sent to Fianna Fáil finance spokesman Michael McGrath.

The Minister for Public Expenditure, Paschal Donohoe, said that revised spending estimates for the departments in 2020 were not voted on before the dissolution of the Dáil earlier this year.

In the absence of such a vote there is a ceiling on spending in 2020 of 80 per cent of the net amount appropriated in 2019. Mr Donohoe said the ceiling on spending would now be reached in June in the Department of Social Protection, and September in the Department of Health because of exceptional coronavirus-related costs.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/ff-and-fg-to-meet-with-independents-in-efforts-to-form-government-1.4232852

The existing situations is not sustainable at all. We do not have an elected Taoiseach, nor a government fully accountable to the Dail, and we are quickly going to hit the point where government departments cease to function properly with just a care taker government in place.

The only party that has been politically immature is FG. They refuse to consider all options for government, they refuse to acknowledge any error, they refuse to accept that the current situation with regards there being no elected Taoiseach or accountable government is unacceptable.

In a few weeks time its looking more likely that they will have to accept that there must be either a Unity government or accept that new elections must take place by whatever means are necessary for that to happen.
That could be a postal vote, or could still be via polling stations but by spreading the voting over a two or three day period so that social distancing could be strictly enforced.

JohnnyFlash

Red-C opinion poll in tomorrow's Sunday Business Post.

FG - 35%
SF - 27%
FF - 14%
Indos - 8%
Greens - 7%
Labour - 3%
Soc Dems - 3%
Solidarity/PBP/Workers Party/RISE - 2%

JohnnyFlash

Red-C opinion poll in tomorrow's Sunday Business Post.

FG - 35%
SF - 27%
FF - 14%
Indos - 8%
Greens - 7%
Labour - 3%
Soc Dems - 3%
Solidarity/PBP/Workers Party/RISE - 2%

Suckit

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Red-C opinion poll in tomorrow's Sunday Business Post.

FG - 35%
SF - 27%
FF - 14%
Indos - 8%
Greens - 7%
Labour - 3%
Soc Dems - 3%
Solidarity/PBP/Workers Party/RISE - 2%

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Red-C opinion poll in tomorrow's Sunday Business Post.

FG - 35%
SF - 27%
FF - 14%
Indos - 8%
Greens - 7%
Labour - 3%
Soc Dems - 3%
Solidarity/PBP/Workers Party/RISE - 2%

Repeat it as many times as you want, the truth is that the same people that realised Varadkar was full of crap the last time, will realise it again when the spin machine is forced to stop.

His hero Churchill lost the election after the war, he can try and compare himself to him, but the only real comparison will be that. The loss.

efanton

Suckit wrote: »

Repeat it as many times as you want, the truth is that the same people that realised Varadkar was full of crap the last time, will realise it again when the spin machine is forced to stop.

His hero Churchill lost the election after the war, he can try and compare himself to him, but the only real comparison will be that. The loss.

At the moment they are getting a small bounce because they 'appear' to be doing a good job with the virus outbreak. But if there was an election and the pundits start analysing the mistakes or decisions some of that would inevitably be reduced.

Add to that having to explain why they prevented the country from having an elected government for such a long period of time and why they failed to form a government despite being offered a Unity government solution that bounce would be further reduced.

Also all the problems that were there before the crisis will still be there after it, they will not magically disappear. I could see FG doing better in a subsequent election but I could not see them getting 30% of the vote, and that would put the right back to where they are now where many parties simply will not deal with them to form a government, and simply not having enough seats to even think of forming a government with just the support of a independents.

It would really be down to what happened to the FF vote. Would they eject Martin who has gone back on virtually every promise he made before the election in order to try keep their vote or would their vote diminish significantly to the benefit of both FG and SF.

It would be hard for anyone to call the result of another election except to say that it almost certainly would not result in a hung Dail. People will recognise that there is a choice to be made, more of the same FF FG type governments that haven't served the country well in the last two decades or try something new and vote accordingly. I would like to think the latter would happen but I certainly would not be absolutely certain of that, but either way at least we would have a government with an elected Taoiseach and broad support of the electorate.

JohnnyFlash

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Red-C opinion poll in tomorrow's Sunday Business Post.

FG - 35%
SF - 27%
FF - 14%
Indos - 8%
Greens - 7%
Labour - 3%
Soc Dems - 3%
Solidarity/PBP/Workers Party/RISE - 2%

I think FF need get rid of Micheal Martin. I heard him interviewed in the week and he couldn’t string a sentence together. Mumbling and stumbling. I actually thought that he was ill.
FG are doing a great job in very unprecedented times.

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

I think FF need get rid of Micheal Martin. I heard him interviewed in the week and he couldn’t string a sentence together. Mumbling and stumbling. I actually thought that he was ill.
FG are doing a great job in very unprecedented times.

Surprised by this polling actually. I genuinely thought FG would be much much further ahead. I think the lapses and failures and the relentless PR'ing is keeping them in check.

One of the 2, FG or FF is going and at the moment it is looking like FF. If FG go into government with them, it could conceivably switch around. Although I think the crashing of the economy may have permanently holed FF below the water line if these figures were borne out in a poll.
Martin will be clinging on. Heady FF Zoom meeting coming up. Any hackers out there?

Mortelaro

I don't think those poll results will come anywhere near reality and we'd be looking at an FF SF government with a new leader in FF

markodaly

efanton wrote: »

Maybe because it wasnt there earlier when I looked for it.

What we have at the moment is an outline.
I genuinely hope they get everything finalised before then, but their past record doesnt say much. Lets hope the pressure is on and they deliver.

So, you were wrong. OK

Leo was promising 100,000 test per week a month ago despite being advised that it would not be not possible. Last week what was it? about 40k.

I think he has been clear of late that he wants to get to the point where there is capacity to do 100,000 tests per week by the 18th of May, which is two weeks away yet, so perhaps like your earlier rants, lets hold judgement a bit.

I wouldnt count your chickens yet.

Apparently Leo is still doing his solo runs.

Why he would do that is strange unless he doesnt even trust his own cabinet or ministers.

I don't know, maybe they are extremely busy trying to hold the country together to dot every i or cross every t. You should write them an angry letter to convey your dissapproval.

Mr Coveney's links to the Keelings family are well known.

Funny, I read that line word for word on one of those looney left facebook pages.

IAMAMORON

I think the Republic is a lot more polarised in its' politics than the poll indicates. A dramatic increase of over 33% for FG, seemingly at the expense of FF and independents? It does not make any sense at all?

The pattern of the 2020 election was that SF were getting 1st prefs and then transferring to other left wings and independents. FF were losing their vote to SF. Where SF made gains was at the expense of former FF TD's. FG lost support, but FG voters don't suddenly not vote FG and then vote SF, does not really happen? FG vote defection would go to the greens or moderate independents or even labour. There would be exceptions of course, but I think you understand what I am getting at.

So if FF have suddenly dropped 40% of their vote, where to ? It massively depends on the main location of the poll, in the real world it would be rare enough for a FF voter to defect to FG, more likely that SF or an independent would benefit.

The poll just indicates a general increase in public satisfaction with FG, probably fair enough all things considered, but I don't believe in a real election that such percentages would necessarily reflect Dáil seats. For starters a decrease in FF vote would lead to an increase in SF vote as opposed to FG, or thereabouts.

markodaly

McMurphy wrote: »

The Examiner reporting that the greens are on the verge of splitting up, they're divided into cliques apparently, with many threatening to go off and become independents if Ryan insists on entering govt.

Listening to Catherine Martin yesterday it wouldn't be surprising if it emerges she is leading the heave against it.

Michaél, Eamon and Leo are the current leaders of their party's, not so sure that will still be the case come Christmas 2020 I reckon.

Thats lovely and all but again, what do the Greens have to do with FG?
There is a Green thread already, perhaps its best suited there.

Or.... create a 'Government formation' thread.

So, according to some Leo is doing a solo run while reading from a script prepared by someone else??!!

Fann Linn

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So, according to some Leo is doing a solo run while reading from a script prepared by someone else??!!

Quite possible.

efanton

Deleted User wrote: »

So, according to some Leo is doing a solo run while reading from a script prepared by someone else??!!

What else could you call it?

He refused to divulge the advice given by the health officials on whether restriction could be altered to the rest of the cabinet before giving his address on Friday.

Its a really strange way of running a government. Surely the smart thing to do would have as many of the cabinet involved as possible so that nothing is overlooked or forgotten. The only reason a Taoiseach would want to withhold information from his/her cabinet is because they either would not agree, or that the Taoiseach has no confidence or trust in their cabinet.

The last Taoiseach that employed that tactic was Brian Cowan. He refused to divulge decisions made and advice given before announcing a complete bailout of all banks and bondholders. We know how that turned out.

efanton

efanton wrote: »

What else could you call it?

He refused to divulge the advice given by the health officials on whether restriction could be altered to the rest of the cabinet before giving his address on Friday.

Its a really strange way of running a government. Surely the smart thing to do would have as many of the cabinet involved as possible so that nothing is overlooked or forgotten. The only reason a Taoiseach would want to withhold information from his/her cabinet is because they either would not agree, or that the Taoiseach has no confidence or trust in their cabinet.

The last Taoiseach that employed that tactic was Brian Cowan. He refused to divulge decisions made and advice given before announcing a complete bailout of all banks and bondholders. We know how that turned out.

What information did he withhold?

McMurphy

markodaly wrote: »

Thats lovely and all but again, what do the Greens have to do with FG?
There is a Green thread already, perhaps its best suited there.

Or.... create a 'Government formation' thread.

Did you read the title of the OP mark?

The thread was opened after leo and FG initially suggested that they wanted to go into opposition for the next five years. As time moved on, they then changed their minds and cobbled together with FF to try and form a government, but to do that, they'd have to lure in one of the smaller party's - and last I heard it was the greens they were specifically targeting.

Catherine Martin on Friday certainly wasn't giving any indication that she or her party were going to entertain a FFG coalition, her very first sentence questioned the very legitimacy of the two of them entering govt. This was aside from Simon Coveney (he of FG) making a statement beforehand that the Greens could basically "forget about their 7%"



Listen to the podcast instead of trying to shut down conversation and you will find out exactly what it has to do with FG.