FG to just do nothing for the next 5 years.

IAMAMORON

efanton wrote: »

He refused to divulge the advice given by the health officials on whether restriction could be altered to the rest of the cabinet before giving his address on Friday.

Its a really strange way of running a government. Surely the smart thing to do would have as many of the cabinet involved as possible so that nothing is overlooked or forgotten. The only reason a Taoiseach would want to withhold information from his/her cabinet is because they either would not agree, or that the Taoiseach has no confidence or trust in their cabinet.

The last Taoiseach that employed that tactic was Brian Cowan. He refused to divulge decisions made and advice given before announcing a complete bailout of all banks and bondholders. We know how that turned out.

What advice for starters, your post is vague?

As regards your perception of the Taoiseach's mode of government, I think any leader or person in a responsible position retains the ability to cloak or not disclose all the motivation behind a decision? Transparency is a method of communicating as opposed to a tool of concealment?

Contrasting how tactful one Taoiseach was with another on two contrasting matters really dissolves any respect a reader will have for your argument. Bankers and doctors are different animals for starters, even you know that.

efanton

markodaly wrote: »

So, you were wrong. OK

No I was right at the time of posting. I asked why haven't the government published? A hour later and a good few hours after Leo's speech it was.
He pays his private PR's guy enough money and has a whole government press office at his disposal, you would think they would have published immediately after the speech,

I think he has been clear of late that he wants to get to the point where there is capacity to do 100,000 tests per week by the 18th of May, which is two weeks away yet, so perhaps like your earlier rants, lets hold judgement a bit.

But he did not say that it was an aspiration, he promised to deliver that target and set a date for it to be delivered, despite being advised at the time that it was unrealistic.

Funny, I read that line word for word on one of those looney left facebook pages.

I gave you you the link to the article I quoted from the Independent.
Maybe they are having an identity crisis
Here it is again

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/lengthy-deliberations-sees-cabinet-sign-off-on-101-day-covid-19-recovery-plan-997283.html

In a rare move, ministers were not given the advice from the NPHET ahead of time, with priority given to ensuring that the exact details of the document didn’’t leak before the Taoiseach Leo Varadkar could give his address to the nation, which was not followed by questions from the media.

markodaly

McMurphy wrote: »

Did you read the title of the OP mark?

Yes, its about FG going into opposition. Which at this stage is entirely redundant as they are still in government are pretty much the only party ready to take on the task

The thread was opened after leo and FG initially suggested that they wanted to go into opposition for the next five years. As time moved on, they then changed their minds and cobbled together with FF to try and form a government, but to do that, they'd have to lure in one of the smaller party's - and last I heard it was the greens they were specifically targeting.

Yes, that is lovely, so perhaps one should create a 'Government formation' thread.
This thread is a bit of a cluster**** to be honest. We have general talk about FG, government formation talk, talk about the Greens, talk about FF, talk about SF and talk about Covid-19 and the caretaker government response to it.

Catherine Martin on Friday certainly wasn't giving any indication that she or her party were going to entertain a FFG coalition, her very first sentence questioned the very legitimacy of the two of them entering govt. This was aside from Simon Coveney (he of FG) making a statement beforehand that the Greens could basically "forget about their 7%"

Maybe start a new thread then.

By the way.... where is the FF thread? We have one for SF, the Greens and FG...

markodaly

efanton wrote: »

Add to that having to explain why they prevented the country from having an elected government for such a long period of time and why they failed to form a government despite being offered a Unity government solution that bounce would be further reduced.

Nonsense, and that is putting it mildly.
Why would FG alone be blamed for not forming a government when the likes of the SD's, Labour and the Greens appear to be running for the hills.
SF gave up on trying to form a government within 4 days of the election and have done nothing since.

As to the Unity government, you keep banging on about. No one but the Greens wants it, and that INCLUDES SF.

It would be hard for anyone to call the result of another election except to say that it almost certainly would not result in a hung Dail.

Hard to make a call, but sure make a call anyway.

You are right, its hard to make a call, so perhaps keep your powder dry.
Remember the last time you made a call? You got it utterly wrong.

People will recognise that there is a choice to be made, more of the same FF FG type governments that haven't served the country well in the last two decades or try something new and vote accordingly. I would like to think the latter would happen but I certainly would not be absolutely certain of that, but either way at least we would have a government with an elected Taoiseach and broad support of the electorate.

That is up for interpretation really. I for one an easily see SF getting some more seats, at the expense of other left-wing candidates like PBP and the SD's.
I can also easily see FG getting more seats at the expense of Labour, the Greens and FF perhaps.
We could be back in the same position numbers-wise, as the big three become the big two.

markodaly

efanton wrote: »

No I was right at the time of posting.

Eh, check again. The plan was tweeted out by a few people at circa 8:00pm-ish that night, you went on your rant about 9:30 pm

Anyway, its semantics.

That was not my point, my point was that you were too quick to judge and too quick to make grandiose kneejerk predictions as if you were a betting man that the plan won't be available for weeks yet.

One should take a lesson in such a mistake, to be honest, but if you want to double down on it, grand. Its a wasted lesson.

He pays his private PR's guy enough money and has a whole government press office at his disposal, you would think they would have published immediately after the speech,

You should write an angry stern letter to the Dept of An Taoiseach asking why the plan was uploaded immediately after his speech! What are they doing for God's sake? Don't they realise that people want something to complain about on a Friday night? I know there is a Covid-19 global pandemic and all but still, its a sackable offence.

But he did not say that it was an aspiration, he promised to deliver that target and set a date for it to be delivered, despite being advised at the time that it was unrealistic.

It's the 4th of May now, perhaps hold off with the burning torches and executioners knives until the 18th of May until you know, we know, or not whether they have reached that target.

Maybe they are having an identity crisis

Maybe you have outrageous expectations?

McMurphy

markodaly wrote: »

Yes, its about FG going into opposition. Which at this stage is entirely redundant as they are still in government are pretty much the only party ready to take on the task



Yes, that is lovely, so perhaps one should create a 'Government formation' thread.
This thread is a bit of a cluster**** to be honest. We have general talk about FG, government formation talk, talk about the Greens, talk about FF, talk about SF and talk about Covid-19 and the caretaker government response to it.



Maybe start a new thread then.

By the way.... where is the FF thread? We have one for SF, the Greens and FG...

We have been over this already mark, it is perfectly acceptable to bring up other party's in a thread (as you yourself have done on multiple occasions Sinn Fein Sinn Fein Sinn Fein).

I gave my reasons for mentioning the greens, I even linked you to a podcast to enlighten yourself with the context in which I brought up the greens in this thread, but it appears you didn't listen to it - sigh.

markodaly

markodaly wrote: »

Yes, its about FG going into opposition. Which at this stage is entirely redundant as they are still in government are pretty much the only party ready to take on the task



Yes, that is lovely, so perhaps one should create a 'Government formation' thread.
This thread is a bit of a cluster**** to be honest. We have general talk about FG, government formation talk, talk about the Greens, talk about FF, talk about SF and talk about Covid-19 and the caretaker government response to it.



Maybe start a new thread then.

By the way.... where is the FF thread? We have one for SF, the Greens and FG...

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058075095 Here you go

Mortelaro

McMurphy wrote: »

Catherine Martin on Friday certainly wasn't giving any indication that she or her party were going to entertain a FFG coalition, her very first sentence questioned the very legitimacy of the two of them entering govt. This was aside from Simon Coveney (he of FG) making a statement beforehand that the Greens could basically "forget about it

They voted 8:4 to negotiate
She was one of the four
A bare 2 thirds majority

There is always position loud haling
Coveny and Martin being examples
Sometimes its planned loud haling
Sometimes not
Those probably were

There are enough democratically elected independents to form a government with FF and FG on say a rolling 2 year agreement basis similar to the confidence and supply scenario except it would be a coalition
A 2 seat majority though would be short lived but long enough probably to get significant progress on priorities like housing and health waiting times
Theres already plans afoot to use the private hospitals to clear that backlog

Going back to the thread title,I think vradakar initially wasn't afraid of opposition looking at it more like a challenge to relish
But the corollary of that is,he's not afraid of another election either,especially not now

As political animals, theres a lot to look forward to

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

as they are still in government

Arrogance or ignorance?

They are 'not' in government. They cannot legislate. They are a caretaker executive with very limited functions with unelected Ministers.

just because they are trying to dictate and shut out scrutiny and other opinions does not make them a government.

Mortelaro

For the avoidance of all doubt, here is the article of the constitution, our current government are dutifully and patrioticlly adhering to
A situation created by the electorate democratically electing numbers in the Dáil fractious enough in opinion,to make government formation as difficult as it is

Lest we forget:

ARTICLE 28 BUNREACHT NA h&#201 wrote: »

28 11 1° If the Taoiseach at any time resigns from office the other members of the Government shall
be deemed also to have resigned from office, but the Taoiseach and the other members of the
Government shall continue to carry on their duties until their successors shall have been appointed.
2° The members of the Government in office at the date of a dissolution of Dáil Éireann shall continue
to hold office until their successors shall have been appointed.

efanton

efanton wrote: »

It would be hard for anyone to call the result of another election except to say that it almost certainly would not result in a hung Dail. People will recognise that there is a choice to be made, more of the same FF FG type governments that haven't served the country well in the last two decades or try something new and vote accordingly. I would like to think the latter would happen but I certainly would not be absolutely certain of that, but either way at least we would have a government with an elected Taoiseach and broad support of the electorate.

The other parties not currently in government have done NOTHING constructive. SF basically went to ground for a few weeks and then came back eventually criticising testing, which objectively we are one of the best tested countries in the world, and of course the old chestnut of an "All Ireland Policy" when it comes to everything under the sun. Not one word from them or any of the rest of them about care homes, where they could have made a real difference.

The Greens then still banging on about the climate crisis, when there are right now more important concerns.

Tadhg Daly, CEO of Nursing Homes Ireland, was the only one alerting people to this at the time.
6th March : https://nhi.ie/covid-19-coronavirus-nursing-home-care/
1st April : https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/people-in-residential-care-with-covid-19-should-be-kept-in-homes-crisis-team-says-1.4218071


How many deaths did this cost? All the parties have blood on their hands here.

Bizarrely SF oppose opening cemetaries in NI, while they are open here (TO CLARIFY open for bereaved to visit, not for funerals)
https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/third-of-ni-coronavirus-related-deaths-occur-in-care-homes-figures-suggest-995910.html

Fann Linn

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The other parties not currently in government have done NOTHING constructive. SF basically went to ground for a few weeks and then came back eventually criticising testing, which objectively we are one of the best tested countries in the world, and of course the old chestnut of an "All Ireland Policy" when it comes to everything under the sun. Not one word from them or any of the rest of them about care homes, where they could have made a real difference.

The Greens then still banging on about the climate crisis, when there are right now more important concerns.

Tadhg Daly, CEO of Nursing Homes Ireland, was the only one alerting people to this at the time.
6th March : https://nhi.ie/covid-19-coronavirus-nursing-home-care/
1st April : https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/people-in-residential-care-with-covid-19-should-be-kept-in-homes-crisis-team-says-1.4218071


How many deaths did this cost? All the parties have blood on their hands here.

Bizarrely SF oppose opening cemetaries in NI, while they are open here (TO CLARIFY open for bereaved to visit, not for funerals)
https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/third-of-ni-coronavirus-related-deaths-occur-in-care-homes-figures-suggest-995910.html

As are the Alliance. fyp

JohnnyFlash

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Arrogance or ignorance?

They are 'not' in government. They cannot legislate. They are a caretaker executive with very limited functions with unelected Ministers.

just because they are trying to dictate and shut out scrutiny and other opinions does not make them a government.

This is eating you up inside!

FrancieBrady

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

This is eating you up inside!

Johnny, I'm in my late 50's...FG/FF governments don't 'eat me' up. I wouldn't be here if they did.

I simply pointed out a technical importance there.

IAMAMORON

McMurphy wrote: »

Catherine Martin on Friday certainly wasn't giving any indication that she or her party were going to entertain a FFG coalition, her very first sentence questioned the very legitimacy of the two of them entering govt.
Listen to the podcast instead of trying to shut down conversation and you will find out exactly what it has to do with FG.

In fairness to Catherine Martin entering into this coalition endangers her political future. Her constituency contains 2 FG TD's and has been traditionally a shightfest when it comes to voter loyalty. She is being shrewd. The best chance she has of retaining her seat is possibly in government but she could also lose it in 4 years if the Green party lose support, which as we have seen has always happened to minority coalition parties. I understand her apprehension.

smurgen

Ouch!

https://twitter.com/FintanYTWalsh/status/1257252935177830402?s=19

Mortelaro

smurgen wrote: »

Ouch!

https://twitter.com/FintanYTWalsh/status/1257252935177830402?s=19

Huh ?

No ouch thereJuly is 2 months away
Better to be safe than sorry
Denmark's R figure has risen to 0.9 already and it's only opened junior schools

https://www.thesun.ie/news/5385379/denmark-coronavirus-infection-rate-schools/

Denmark was one of Europe's poster boys in dealing with coronavirus

Muahahaha

smurgen wrote: »

Ouch!

https://twitter.com/FintanYTWalsh/status/1257252935177830402?s=19

Lol that will be Jacinda knocked off Leos Christmas card list

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Arrogance or ignorance?

They are 'not' in government. They cannot legislate. They are a caretaker executive with very limited functions with unelected Ministers.

just because they are trying to dictate and shut out scrutiny and other opinions does not make them a government.

I think you need to read the Irish Constitution Francie. There is a government, there must always be a government to carry out executive functions.

Don't you like them? Then on Tuesday get the other 125 TD's to nominate a Taoiseach and form another government. It can be done in a few hours id say.

Its very simple.

markodaly

smurgen wrote: »

Ouch!

Id say deep down you are delighted that more Irish people are dying than Kiwi's

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

I think you need to read the Irish Constitution Francie. There is a government, there must always be a government to carry out executive functions.

Don't you like them? Then on Tuesday get the other 125 TD's to nominate a Taoiseach and form another government. It can be done in a few hours id say.

Its very simple.

You said FG were 'in government'.
They aren't. There is a caretaker government in place which has no democratic mandate and that has limited powers. Technically anything it does has no democratic legitmacy if they cannot command the confidence of parliament.

You used an incorrect phrase.

smurgen

markodaly wrote: »

Id say deep down you are delighted that more Irish people are dying than Kiwi's

No more I'm upset we don't have a competent leader willing to make quick decisions for the good of the people instead of Leo the 5th.

efanton

markodaly wrote: »

I think you need to read the Irish Constitution Francie. There is a government, there must always be a government to carry out executive functions.

Don't you like them? Then on Tuesday get the other 125 TD's to nominate a Taoiseach and form another government. It can be done in a few hours id say.

Its very simple.

If it was that simple, why have FF or FG failed to form a government after 9 weeks of trying?

FG do not care how long it takes to form a government, in fact the longer it takes the better, but they will not publicly admit that. It suit them perfectly to drag out government formation for as long as it is possible to do so.


The reality is that we are looking at another election.
I just cant see it being at all possible to put a program for government together that delivers the Green party's demands and also be supported by FF and FG party members. Eamonn Ryan might be prepared to compromise, but it will only take 30% of the Green party membership to reject any vote for a coalition and to shoot those compromises down in flames.

Jinglejangle69

smurgen wrote: »

No more I'm upset we don't have a competent leader willing to make quick decisions for the good of the people instead of Leo the 5th.

Yeah because Ireland and New Zealand are the same.

With New Zealand having 2000km between them and other countries.

That of course wouldn't make any difference.

Fann Linn

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Yeah because Ireland and New Zealand are the same.

With New Zealand having 2000km between them and other countries.

That of course wouldn't make any difference.

Coincidentally almost the same distance from Ireland to Italy to the mile.

Mortelaro

Let's be very clear
Constitutionally
There is a government in Ireland ,the word care taker is not mentioned in the relevant wording in the constitution
However it is a caretaker by convention in the current circumstances with full executive authority though obviously no majority to pass new laws
Caretaker convention worldwide is it usually only takes emergency executive decisions prior to the hand over

To belittle the process is to belittle our democracy in my humble opinion

All that you could need to know in relation to this is available for downloadfrom the oireachtas here

FrancieBrady

Mortelaro wrote: »

Let's be very clear
Constitutionally
There is a government in Ireland ,the word care taker is not mentioned in the relevant wording in the constitution
However it is a caretaker by convention in the current circumstances with full executive authority though obviously no majority to pass new laws
Caretaker convention worldwide is it usually only takes emergency executive decisions prior to the hand over

To belittle the process is to belittle our democracy in my humble opinion

All that you could need to know in relation to this is available for downloadfrom the oireachtas here

You belittle 'parliament' trying to present the current situation as normal. It isn't and should be described as such. FG are NOT in government they are in a caretaker government.
That gives everybody that was given a mandate by the people proper respect.

If you are genuinely interested in respect that is.

James Brown

What on earth is this?

markodaly wrote: »

Id say deep down you are delighted that more Irish people are dying than Kiwi's

Disgusting comment.

Mortelaro

^^^^^^

Balderdash

There is no disrespect for elected representatives by having respect for the constitution whilst said elected representatives make up their minds on a majority vote on a Taoiseach
This government and according to our constitution, that is what it is,remains in place until a vote passes on a new Taoiseach
It's not the government's decision to remain in place ,they cannot actually resign
The Dáil only has the power to remove it
It hasn't but it probably will in a month or two when agreement is reached
Ergo going on as if this government is some sort of Junta is utter nonsense
Its current position is actually the result of the people's will

FrancieBrady

Mortelaro wrote: »

^^^^^^

Balderdash

There is no disrespect for elected representatives by having respect for the constitution whilst said elected representatives make up their minds on a majority vote on a Taoiseach
This government and according to our constitution, that is what it is,remains in place until a vote passes on a new Taoiseach
It's not the government's decision to remain in place ,they cannot actually resign
The Dáil only has the power to remove it
It hasn't but it probably will in a month or two when agreement is reached
Ergo going on as if this government is some sort of Junta is utter nonsense
Its current position is actually the result of the people's will

No-one said it was a junta

Constitutionally it is a 'caretaker' government.

Simple point and wholly precise. This is distinct from an elected government given that there are unelected TD's fulfilling caretaker roles as ministers.
That in itself makes it worthy of distinction from 'normal government'.