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FG to just do nothing for the next 5 years.
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We now have a poster on boards.ie inserting new words into article 28 of the constitution
Someone hand him a wig and a bench...0 -
The reality is that we are looking at another election.
I just cant see it being at all possible to put a program for government together that delivers the Green party's demands and also be supported by FF and FG party members. Eamonn Ryan might be prepared to compromise, but it will only take 30% of the Green party membership to reject any vote for a coalition and to shoot those compromises down in flames.
You couldn't be further from the truth. For starters Fianna Fáil simply could not afford to have one, they risk losing more seats to Sinn Féin if this happened. They know this and the last time I looked around I noticed that people don't intentionally like shooting themselves in the foot. So FF will be playing ball, it buys them 5 years and an opportunity to turn things around.
Secondly the Greens won't take the risk of compromising their position either. They have 12 decent TD's and once again have the opportunity to implement their policies and reward their voters. They are not going to risk losing this with another election.
Fine Gael are shrugging shoulders, but it gives their front bench 5 more years to complete what they started. Leo could well be looking around anyways, but there are plenty there to replace him.
Once the semantics of who is Taoiseach is sorted you will find that throwing mud at the solution will get boring after a while. We are basically looking at having 2 Taoisigh for the next 5 years with Eamonn Ryan having a lot of control over the aspirations of either party.
The biggest challenge Sinn Féin now have is trying to draw more blood from a stone. I get the feeling that the left wing consensus is now saturated in the Dáil. It is roughly around 50 seats, maybe more with Labour. But I do struggle to see where they find the extra 30 seats? The only way Sinn Féin can get into power now is to moderate their policies, they simply won't attract enough votes otherwise. Even if they absorb PBP and the SD's, they still cannot get there. However they also risk losing votes to such left wing voters if they demonstrate that they are changing their tune to generate more votes. That is their issue, how far are they willing to disappoint their hardline to enable them get into power, if they even want to?0 -
We now have a poster on boards.ie inserting new words into article 28 of the constitution
Someone hand him a wig and a bench...
Here is the interpretation of the constitution by a few with 'wigs' and 'benches'.1. Caretaker governments in Ireland
In Ireland, under Article 28.11.1 of the Constitution, the incumbent Taoiseach and Ministers
remain in office as a caretaker government until a successor is appointed. This is the case
even where the Taoiseach or Ministers are not re-elected as members of the incoming Dáil.
Ministers of State1
also remain in office, even if not re-elected.
Stop digging. It isn't a normal government no matter how you attempt to dress it up.0 -
^^^^^^
Balderdash
There is no disrespect for elected representatives by having respect for the constitution whilst said elected representatives make up their minds on a majority vote on a Taoiseach
This government and according to our constitution, that is what it is,remains in place until a vote passes on a new Taoiseach
It's not the government's decision to remain in place ,they cannot actually resign
The Dáil only has the power to remove it
It hasn't but it probably will in a month or two when agreement is reached
Ergo going on as if this government is some sort of Junta is utter nonsense
Its current position is actually the result of the people's will
The problem with your analysis is that the Constitution has absolutely no provision for the case of a hung Dali. Those that wrote it obvious did not foresee a situation where a government could not be formed in a reasonably short time.
They expected a new election to be carried out with 5 weeks of a Taoiseach handing in their resignation so it could be reasonably argued that they also expected a new government to be formed in a relatively short time as well.
What we currently have is something totally new, and not provisioned for in any law or constitution.
We have a Taoiseach that is no longer accountable to the Dail. What good would a vote of no confidence do in current circumstances when the Taoiseach and by extension of that all ministers have already handed in their resignations.
If we took the current laws and constitution to the extreme, as long as the current Taoiseach was unprepared to advise the President to dissolve the Dail then effectively he becomes the de facto Taoiseach for his lifetime as he can no longer face a vote of no confidence. The President can only dissolve the Dail on the advice of the Taoiseach, and if the president cant dissolve the Dail then there can be no new election.
Now before the FG fanboys jump in I m not suggesting that this is Leo's intention.
Its obvious that there is an inherent weakness or omission in our Constitution, and that it was never envisaged that the situation of a hung Dail would occur.0 -
If it was that simple, why have FF or FG failed to form a government after 9 weeks of trying?
FG do not care how long it takes to form a government, in fact the longer it takes the better, but they will not publicly admit that. It suit them perfectly to drag out government formation for as long as it is possible to do so.
The reality is that we are looking at another election.
I just cant see it being at all possible to put a program for government together that delivers the Green party's demands and also be supported by FF and FG party members. Eamonn Ryan might be prepared to compromise, but it will only take 30% of the Green party membership to reject any vote for a coalition and to shoot those compromises down in flames.
How does it suit FG to take longer to form a government? There is no benefit to them in dragging it out. There's no advantage to them in being just a caretaker government.
The length of time it's taking is down to how fragmented our elected representatives are.
I can't see a coalition with the Greens lasting very long. Their red line demands for a 7% reduction in CE are basically unachievable without sever repercussions for the electorate. But let the Greens take responsibility for that in the next election.0 -
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jimmycrackcorm wrote: »How does it suit FG to take longer to form a government? There is no benefit to them in dragging it out. There's no advantage to them in being just a caretaker government.
The length of time it's taking is down to how fragmented our elected representatives are.
I can't see a coalition with the Greens lasting very long. Their red line demands for a 7% reduction in CE are basically unachievable without sever repercussions for the electorate. But let the Greens take responsibility for that in the next election.
The longer it goes on, the more likely there is an election. An election is far from the worst thing that could happen from FG's viewpoint.
Of the three would be parties for Government, FG has by far the least to lose if it does not work out. If the Greens want out, they'd better do it soon. FF have no leverage at all, literally what's going on here is that Martin is doing everything to make sure he's not the first FF leader to not become Taoiseach.
Also, while the electorate would be cheesed off at the prospect of another election, a lot of questions will be asked of Labour and the Soc Dems, Labour in particular have made a virtue of going into opposition while the SD's actions could hardly be described as those of a party serious about going into Government.
I still can't see how there will be a Programme for Government that will keep the memberships of the three parties happy in any event. The only way that will happen is if FF and FG are able to knock a lot of sense into the Greens or FF and FG sell their souls, but the utterances at every level in both parties make the former a more likely scenario than the latter.0 -
With respect, you are the one digging,using the words not normalFrancieBrady wrote: »Here is the interpretation of the constitution by a few with 'wigs' and 'benches'.
Stop digging. It isn't a normal government no matter how you attempt to dress it up.
That is not in the constitution
I've no problem with the word caretaker,it is used the world over in such situations
I do have an issue with it being used in a derogatory or name calling fashion belittling and disrespectful of our constitution
OR indeed carrying on as if the current government is there by design or prolonged by design
It isn't
It's there until the T.D's the people sent back to the Dáil can agree a new government
That's the process in our constitution,like it or lump it0 -
jimmycrackcorm wrote: »How does it suit FG to take longer to form a government? There is no benefit to them in dragging it out. There's no advantage to them in being just a caretaker government.
The length of time it's taking is down to how fragmented our elected representatives are.
I can't see a coalition with the Greens lasting very long. Their red line demands for a 7% reduction in CE are basically unachievable without sever repercussions for the electorate. But let the Greens take responsibility for that in the next election.
There are numerous advantages to being in government, albeit a caretaker one. When FG brought FF to the table under the 'stability' con it meant everything MM said got column lines. Anytime government did anything FF were asked for an opinion. This had the mutual interest of FF/FG not wanting another party getting as much attention be it SF or whomever.
Now is no different. With all eyes on FF/FG and the Greens. Out of sight out of mind for SF/PBP/SD etc.
From 'relishing' going into opposition having been humiliated in the election, likely FG are hoping the electorate will become jaded by the next election and even as toothless caretakers they get the attention. Any cobbled together government will prolong this.
Sadly it looks like a rinse and repeat with the Greens. Falling into the 'better in than out' junior partner trap. They'll be eaten alive.0 -
From 'relishing' going into opposition having been humiliated in the election, likely FG are hoping the electorate will become jaded by the next election and even as toothless caretakers they get the attention. Any cobbled together government will prolong this.
Sadly it looks like a rinse and repeat with the Greens. Falling into the 'better in than out' junior partner trap. They'll be eaten alive.
Lots of respect there for the elected T.D's on the non sinn Féin side of the house I see... :rolleyes:
So much for democracy0 -
With respect, you are the one digging,using the words not normal
That is not in the constitution
I've no problem with the word caretaker,it is used the world over in such situations
I do have an issue with it being used in a derogatory or name calling fashion belittling and disrespectful of our constitution
OR indeed carrying on as if the current government is there by design or prolonged by design
It isn't
It's there until the T.D's the people sent back to the Dáil can agree a new government
That's the process in our constitution,like it or lump it
Not distinguishing what we have when singing the praises of a particular political party (which is what Mark was doing) is to belittle.
If you can't see that, then that's your problem.
I did not at any time belittle or demean the constitutional provisions for this period.0 -
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If its semantics is the problem
Fine Gael are the only members in this care taker government
Now no matter what opinion anyone has on Fine Gael,this government is definitely a Fine Gael government
Its led,middled and ministered by Fine Gael
Anomaly,fortune, misfortune or not,that's what it is,its both a Fine Gael government and a care taker government
It's not a sham or anything else and ultimately its decisions will be the subject of electoral judgement whether in 1,2 or 5 years0 -
jimmycrackcorm wrote: »How does it suit FG to take longer to form a government? There is no benefit to them in dragging it out. There's no advantage to them in being just a caretaker government.
The length of time it's taking is down to how fragmented our elected representatives are.
I can't see a coalition with the Greens lasting very long. Their red line demands for a 7% reduction in CE are basically unachievable without sever repercussions for the electorate. But let the Greens take responsibility for that in the next election.
I agree, I cant see a FF/FG/Green coalition lasting very long myself, if indeed that coalition is ever formed which personally I doubt.
Leo has had months now to inform the president that new elections are required.
If there was no benefit to FG dragging out the process why hasnt Leo advised the President to dissolve the Dail and initiate new elections?
Indeed the question has to be asked why did FG even consider a coalition with FF when it was their initial intention to withdraw to the opposition benches.
The only feasible answer would be that they foresee SF gaining yet more support in a subsequent election and being in the position of forming a government, or that they were terrified that FF and SF would somehow, after burying the hatchet in each others foreheads, come together to form a government.
Personally I think this long drawn out drama of government formation is nothing more than FG doing everything possible to diminish SF. If they were that confident that they had increase popular support they would have called another election by now, but they haven't.
What SF had envisaged as a programme for government was far more achievable and realistic than what the Greens have proposed and are demanding. It would certainly have been fiscally more prudent, even if you argued that it wasn't prudent enough, yet now we have both FG and FF agreeing to the Green's policies that will cost up to €40 billion that the country simply will not have to spend without massive borrowings.
The question has to be asked if FG claimed the SF policies would be economically detrimental to the country and should be opposed at all costs, why are they now encouraging and accepting a party whose demands are far greater and will cost far far more as a coalition partner. There really only two answers, one, they will do anything to prevent SF progressing, or two,they believe they can string the Green's along just enough to form a government but stop short of committing to spending tens of billions of euro in capital expenditure and implementing the Green policies.0 -
If its semantics is the problem
Fine Gael are the only members in this care taker government
Now no matter what opinion anyone has on Fine Gael,this government is definitely a Fine Gael government
Its led,middled and ministered by Fine Gael
Anomaly,fortune, misfortune or not,that's what it is,its both a Fine Gael government and a care taker government
It's not a sham or anything else and ultimately its decisions will be the subject of electoral judgement whether in 1,2 or 5 years
Again, your hyper sensitivity to criticism of FG now sees you inventing slights made against them.
I, at no time called it a 'sham' government or illegal or unconstitutional.
There is a distinction between this government and the one before the election and the word 'caretaker' covers that distinction. The poster Mark was singing the praises of FG as if they had chosen to be the caretaker government. As you agree, they didn't, they have no choice in the matter. They are not 'pretty much the only party ready to take on the task' they are the ONLY party who can do it until such time as a normal government can be formed.markodaly wrote:Yes, its about FG going into opposition. Which at this stage is entirely redundant as they are still in government are pretty much the only party ready to take on the task0 -
What SF had envisaged as a programme for government was far more achievable and realistic than what the Greens have proposed and are demanding. It would certainly have been fiscally more prudent, even if you argued that it wasn't prudent enough, yet now we have both FG and FF agreeing to the Green's policies that will cost up to €40 billion that the country simply will not have to spend without massive borrowings.
The question has to be asked if FG claimed the SF policies would be economically detrimental to the country and should be opposed at all costs, why are they now encouraging and accepting a party whose demands are far greater and will cost far far more as a coalition partner. There really only two answers, one, they will do anything to prevent SF progressing, or two,they believe they can string the Green's along just enough to form a government but stop short of committing to spending tens of billions of euro in capital expenditure and implementing the Green policies.
Hilarious.
I respect that economics are the last piece of reality Sinn Féin are happy to deal with, but insinuating that their economic policies are feasible is worse. Even Sinn Fein are blessing themselves that they won't get the opportunity to implement such nonsense. They know well they are garbage.0 -
Because several processes needed to run their course first,left wing negotiations, FF led negotiations ,FF FG negotiations and now this
Leo has had months now to inform the president that new elections are required.
If there was no benefit to FG dragging out the process why hasnt Leo advised the President to dissolve the Dail and initiate new elections?
In the middle a pandemic starts
Leo being the no búllsh1t man he is actually said he'd rule it in as a last resortIndeed the question has to be asked why did FG even consider a coalition with FF when it was their initial intention to withdraw to the opposition benches.The question has to be asked if FG claimed the SF policies would be economically detrimental to the country and should be opposed at all costs, why are they now encouraging and accepting a party whose demands are far greater and will cost far far more as a coalition partner. There really only two answer, one, they will do anything to prevent SF progressing, or two,they believe they can string the Green's along just enough to form a government but stop short of committing to spending tens of billions of euro in capital expenditure and implementing the Green policies.
Or more likely we'll know the real story in a few weeks0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »Again, your hyper sensitivity to criticism of FG now sees you inventing slights made against them.
.
Kindly explain how this current government is not a Fine Gael government when Fine Gael are the only people in it
Also explain how pointing this out and indeed the why's in the constitution,speak to any sensitivity at all to criticism of its actions
The caretaker part is its functional description aswell, never disputed that
But from a semantics perspective explain the rest
I can't wait to hear this0 -
Kindly explain how this current government is not a Fine Gael government when Fine Gael are the only people in it
Also explain how pointing this out and indeed the why's in the constitution,speak to any sensitivity at all to criticism of its actions
The caretaker part is its functional description aswell, never disputed that
But from a semantics perspective explain the rest
I can't wait to hear this
You weighed in on behalf of a poster who was challenged because he was singing the praises of FG as the only party willing to take on the task and that they were in government.
He was wrong, as are you. No semantics, just factually correct. FG are in the caretaking government role because they have no choice but to be.
In fact, before Covid, their 'choice' was to be in opposition, was it not?0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »You weighed in on behalf of a poster who was challenged because he was singing the praises of FG as the only party willing to take on the task and that they were in government.
He was wrong, as are you. No semantics, just factually correct. FG are in the caretaking government role because they have no choice but to be.
In fact, before Covid, their 'choice' was to be in opposition, was it not?
Just this very day,you described them as not a government and some sort of 'care taker executive '
Very demeaning of our constitution
Which says
Our constitution refers to what we have now as a GovernmentGovernment shall continue to carry on their duties until their successors shall have been appointed.
2° The members of the Government in office at the date of a dissolution of Dáil Éireann shall continue
to hold office until their successors shall have been appointed.
No ifs,no buts no whataboutery.
You on the other hand in some dislike obsession prefer to use words not in the constitution at all like 'care taker executive' and have the Gaul to post in the screenshot attachment that it is not a government at all
Your words own them
Own your disrespect for Bunreacht na h'Éireann0 -
Just this very day,you described them as not a government and some sort of 'care taker executive '
Very demeaning of our constitution
Which says
Our constitution refers to what we have now as a Government
No ifs,no buts no whataboutery.
You on the other hand in some dislike obsession prefer to use words not in the constitution at all like 'care taker executive' and have the Gaul to post in the screenshot attachment that it is not a government at all
Your words own them
Own your disrespect for Bunreacht na h'Éireann
A government is an 'executive'.
There is nothing in the slightest demeaning or disrespectful in saying that.
I know you are trying to pivot the conversation to me demeaning the office of government or disrespecting the constitution. I am not and never was.
The person I corrected was disrespecting because telling a lie is to disrespect.
This caretaker government has no choice about 'taking on a task'. It has to, so being in a 'caretaker government' is not praiseworthy in itself.
Stop looking for slights against the government and read what is being said.
I'm done with this as we are going in circles.0 -
Lots of respect there for the elected T.D's on the non sinn Féin side of the house I see... :rolleyes:
So much for democracy
I've no idea what your point is. Do you agree, disagree, felt the need to type?
Don't see any lack or respect by explaining the advantages of being in the public eye.0 -
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https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/election-2020/explainer-leo-varadkar-resigned-tonight-but-nobody-is-elected-to-replace-him-as-taoiseach-38975474.htmlJust this very day,you described them as not a government and some sort of 'care taker executive '
Very demeaning of our constitution
Which says
Our constitution refers to what we have now as a Government
No ifs,no buts no whataboutery.
You on the other hand in some dislike obsession prefer to use words not in the constitution at all like 'care taker executive' and have the Gaul to post in the screenshot attachment that it is not a government at all
Your words own them
Own your disrespect for Bunreacht na h'Éireann
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/varadkar-remains-in-caretaker-capacity-after-d%C3%A1il-fails-to-elect-new-taoiseach-1.4179940
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/varadkar-resigns-amid-warning-impasse-will-hit-the-economy-1.4180757Where the resignation of the Taoiseach and government is not immediately followed by the appointment by the president of a new Taoiseach on the nomination of the Dáil, the outgoing government continues as a caretaker government to "carry out their duties until their successors have been appointed".0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »A government is an 'executive'.
There is nothing in the slightest demeaning or disrespectful in saying that.
I know you are trying to pivot the conversation to me demeaning the office of government or disrespecting the constitution. I am not and never was.
The person I corrected was disrespecting because telling a lie is to disrespect.
This caretaker government has no choice about 'taking on a task'. It has to, so being in a 'caretaker government' is not praiseworthy in itself.
Stop looking for slights against the government and read what is being said.
I'm done with this as we are going in circles.
As I've said,I've no issue with the word caretaker (when not used as a pseudo slur) or with anybody's legitimate right to an opinion on the government's actions
I can give a counter if I disagree
Earlier today,you went further and started saying this isn't a government at all
Thats a slight on the constitution0 -
Hilarious.
I respect that economics are the last piece of reality Sinn Féin are happy to deal with, but insinuating that their economic policies are feasible is worse. Even Sinn Fein are blessing themselves that they won't get the opportunity to implement such nonsense. They know well they are garbage.
So why would FF/FG adopt many of those SF policies in their framework document?
Not only did they commit to building 100,000 homes but they are going to do it without any raise in taxation or USC.
and the list of proposals lifted directly from SF manifesto goes on and on.
Increase bed capacity in hospitals,
Free GP visits,
Consultants in public hospitals on public contract not to work in the private sector as well,
Deliver a Living wage within a term of government.
Address the cost of college fees.
etc, etc
Then on top of that the are going to commit to enacting the majority of the demands, if not all, that the Greens have made.
If you thought the SF proposals were hilarious then you would have to agree that what FG and FF are currently proposing is absolutely ludicrous.0 -
As I've said,I've no issue with the word caretaker (when not used as a pseudo slur) or with anybody's legitimate right to an opinion on the government's actions
I can give a counter if I disagree
Earlier today,you went further and started saying this isn't a government at all
Thats a slight on the constitution
It isn't a 'normal' government, it is a 'caretaker' government which exists because (wait for it...) a 'government' cannot be formed.
Aside from the simple logic above you ignore the slur on the truth delivered by the poster I challenged...FG have not 'chosen' to step up nor are they the 'only party willing to lead' us through this. That a complete lie, as you said yourself, they don't have a choice and as I said earlier, their actual choice after the election was to go into opposition.0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »It isn't a 'normal' government, it is a 'caretaker' government which exists because (wait for it...) a 'government' cannot be formed.
Aside from the simple logic above you ignore the slur on the truth delivered by the poster I challenged...FG have not 'chosen' to step up nor are they the 'only party willing to lead' us through this. That a complete lie, as you said yourself, they don't have a choice and as I said earlier, their actual choice after the election was to go into opposition.
A government can't be formed, you're correct.
Maybe SF should try step up and put us out of our misery?
Oh wait...0 -
The words not normal are not in the constitution
Its either the legitimate government of the country right now or not Yes or No
Early today you gave yourself away by showing you didn't regard it as a government at all,never mind later trying to claim it's not a fine Gael government when everyone in it are Fine gael
There is nothing incorrect about what it is,its the outgoing government, in a caretaker capacity that happens to be a fine Gael government
To say it's not a government is simply wrong0 -
Jinglejangle69 wrote: »A government can't be formed, you're correct.
Maybe SF should try step up and put us out of our misery?
Oh wait...
Well, I think it is criminal that it is going on this long. There should be a limit on the time.
And if you say that you prefer oppisition, then off you go into opposition and stop playing games.
They cannot form a government...back to the people.0 -
The words not normal are not in the constitution
Its either the legitimate government of the country right now or not Yes or No
Early today you gave yourself away by showing you didn't regard it as a government at all,never mind later trying to claim it's not a fine Gael government when everyone in it are Fine gael
There is nothing incorrect about what it is,its the outgoing government, in a caretaker capacity that happens to be a fine Gael government
To say it's not a government is simply wrong
You are trying too hard to deflect and taking too much umbrage at an imagined slight.
Deal with the point not your imaginative composition.
Have FG 'chosen' to lead us through this or are they duty and legally bound to remain in a 'caretaker' role or not?
Whenever you want to deal with that, let me know. Otherwise I will ignore your deflection.0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »You are trying too hard to deflect and taking too much umbrage at an imagined slight.
Deal with the point not your imaginative composition.
Have FG 'chosen' to lead us through this or are they duty and legally bound to remain in a 'caretaker' role or not?
Whenever you want to deal with that, let me know. Otherwise I will ignore your deflection.
You're the one deflecting,I already stated all that ,so quite why you're suggesting I haven't is clear,its because I also pointed out your earlier comment that they are not a government
It's funny though,I only mentioned this evening that this government cant resign,its in the constitution
Even if theres another election, no resignation possible until a new taoiseach vote passes in the Dáil
They are the government according to the constitution ,it doesn't even use the title caretaker
That's a descriptive construct,explained in the oireacthas notes I linked to
The constitutional wording is government
Its that simple
So I suppose accept you were wrong earlier
That's all0 -
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Jinglejangle69 wrote: »Yeah because Ireland and New Zealand are the same.
With New Zealand having 2000km between them and other countries.
That of course wouldn't make any difference.
And Slovenia?0
This discussion has been closed.
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