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FG to just do nothing for the next 5 years.
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I see Leo is trending on Twitter today, and to be completely fair to the man, I'm hardly his greatest fan, but some people need to get over themselves and stop the curtain twitching.
He's as entitled to a day off in the sun as anyone else is.
He was following the guidelines. It's a non issue and no comparison to Cummins antics.0 -
dundalkfc10 wrote: »They got a pay rise a few weeks ago they easily could have refused.
They did not.
I listed out the pay restorations that have happened under the Lansdowne Road Agreement and the current PSSA.
Have you read these agreements?0 -
Topgear on Dave wrote: »Good one here.
https://www.thecork.ie/2020/01/20/question-who-is-cork-largest-employer-answer-apple-with-6000-staff/
For all the hot air about the money held in the apple account it's fairly small potatoes in the scheme of MNC investment in Ireland.
The intel place alone is investing few billion in their factory now.
What I would like to see, and I have yet to see it, is a proper analysis of exactly how much the multinationals contribute to the Irish economy along side how much we as a country subsidise them or lose in tax revenue.
Indigenous SME's contribute far more to the economy, and employ far more people, than the multinationals yet we do not hear of them getting sweetheart deals, reduced corporation tax, or other perks.
Dell were essentially getting their premises at close to free of charge, free employee training, and other perks offered by the IDA but as soon as they saw they could get better deal in Poland there was absolutely no loyalty, they were off like a shot.
These multinationals might be investing billions in their foreign operations, but exactly how much of that ends up in wages for Irish workers, payment to Irish contractors and suppliers, and tax receipts for the government?
Apple's 13 billion if they end up paying it, will not go totally to Ireland, it will have to be distributed to many countries in the EU (except France where Apple have already struck a deal), but even a small fraction of that amount is a very considerable amount of money.
Even if Ireland only got 10% of that 13 billion (and I am not suggesting that is the amount that might be owed I am just using it as an example) that would mean we have been subsiding Apple to the tune of €216,6666 per employee. Obviously I am not considering those employed in Irish suppliers or contractors that do work for Apple, but still it might be a fairly rough indication of how much we subsidise jobs in some multinational companies.
My point being that it doesn't matter how much Apple, Microsoft or any other multinational might invest in their business, what matters is exactly how much of that investment ends up in Irish wages, goes to Irish suppliers, and tax revenue for the Irish government.
I am not totally convinced that multinationals contribute as much is claimed to the Irish economy, I think a bigger reason for the government to encourage them to be here is it is an easy and lazy way to create jobs. But the question has to be asked if the same sweetheart deals, tax breaks, and incentives were offered to indigenous SME's would we not get a better return?
If anyone has seen that breakdown I would very much appreciate a link.0 -
Lets imagine FG gain some seats in an election called because they could not form a coalition. Which party is going to be willing to become their coalition partners.
Whatever party wants to be in government. If no party wants to go into coalition with FG, well that's fine, but is on them. People give out about FF and FG not talking to SF but here you are advocating that.
The numbers will dictate who talks to who at the end of the day.Micheal Martin will be history, so I doubt very FF will be willing to consider a coalition under a new leadership. Lets be totally outlandish and lets imagine FG get 40 seats which parties or parties will make up the other 40 seats. THats not going to happen unless SF of FF are on board. So yes I am certain in a new general election FG will be in no position whatsoever to form a government or be a coalition partner.
In your scenario, who is the government then, without FG?The SF plan for housing was admittedly ambitious but definitely doable.
Doable my arse, there was now way SF could magic up 100,000 new social homes in 5 years on top of all the other construction that was going to go on.
We have builders during the election laughing at the suggestion it was doable.FG are dead as far as being in government because there will be no support from like minded parties big enough to make up the magic 80 seats, and never likely to be again.
Nonsense, you have no idea what is going to happen in the next election, if there is to be one, nevermind what is to happen in 5 years time.
The idea that FG are never going to be in government again is one of the most stupidest I have heard in a long time.Even if FG got 35% of the seats in the Dail it still wold not be enough for them to even seek to form a coalition.
Who will form the government so?So where are FG going to get the additional seats to form a government after a general election?
Where are the other parties going to get the seats to form a government?0 -
That can only mean you are using his sexuality for political purposes.
This is the same type of stuff we see on Twitter about Leo.
There is downright homophobic and outright racist bile written about him.
Here, in this thread, although it's not outright homophobic in the same nasty sense we see on Twitter, dare I say there is unconscious homophobia at play from those that hate him.
Like, we are not discussing MLM or MM's sexual preferences are we, yet Leos one seems to crop up all the time. I wonder why? :rolleyes:
So, yea, when I see FB going on about him being 'gay' for the 200th time, I wonder what is he really trying to say?0 -
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I am not totally convinced that multinationals contribute as much is claimed to the Irish economy
Well then you would be wrong.
Multinationals and FDI are the crown jewels of the Irish economy. We have done seriously well in that regard. Just travel and work in a few different countries and you will realise how well Ireland has done to attract and keep these companies.
Without them, we would be like Serbia or some other such place, exporting foodstuffs and maybe a few services. One things for certain, we would not be anywhere near as wealthy as we are now. Play with it at your peril.0 -
This is the same type of stuff we see on Twitter about Leo.
There is downright homophobic and outright racist bile written about him.
Here, in this thread, although it's not outright homophobic in the same nasty sense we see on Twitter, dare I say there is unconscious homophobia at play from those that hate him.
Like, we are not discussing MLM or MM's sexual preferences are we, yet Leos one seems to crop up all the time. I wonder why? :rolleyes:
So, yea, when I see FB going on about him being 'gay' for the 200th time, I wonder what is he really trying to say?
You are purposely missing the point and insinuating things that aren't taking place - I couldn't care less what sexuality anyone is - gay? Tear away. Bisexual? Cool with me, trans hetrosexuals etc etc I couldn't give a sh1t so long as they're consenting adults it is no one else's business.
I can't speak for others mentioning his sexuality, but it was brought up here in the context that he opposed SSM, and later came out and championed them when it was politically advantageous to do so.
Yeah - he wanted to deny others the same rights that hetrosexuals have been enjoying since forever to try and further his own political career, and did the exact opposite a short while later and for the exact same reasons.
That's the only reason his sexuality was mentioned, it was mighty odd that a gay man entirely of his own bat stood up and opposed SSM, he didn't have to make any comment on them at all, but he did.
I can't think of any other gay politicians that made speeches against the introduction of SSM maybe you do?
I do not care for the thinly veiled homophobic insinuating comments either. You know you're on the road to nothing when that's all is in the tank.0 -
Well then you would be wrong.
Multinationals and FDI are the crown jewels of the Irish economy. We have done seriously well in that regard. Just travel and work in a few different countries and you will realise how well Ireland has done to attract and keep these companies.
Without them, we would be like Serbia or some other such place, exporting foodstuffs and maybe a few services. One things for certain, we would not be anywhere near as wealthy as we are now. Play with it at your peril.
I have travelled, and worked in various countries. My skills in IT security and server support were sought so I had to opertunity of seeing a bit of the world.
I am not denying that FDI has benefited Ireland. The point I made, quite clearly I thought, is that how much has it cost the Irish state to bring that FDI into the country, and is it possible that a similar investment in indigenous Irish companies giving them similar tax breaks and incentives might have resulted in a similar amount of job creation.
Like I said at the very top of my postWhat I would like to see, and I have yet to see it, is a proper analysis of exactly how much the multinationals contribute to the Irish economy along side how much we as a country subsidise them or lose in tax revenue.
If that analysis is clearly on the side of FDI the I am willing to accept it, but I have yet to see it.
But without that my question regarding indigenous SME's is valid.
Without that is it even possible to make the claim you are making?0 -
You are purposely missing the point and insinuating things that aren't taking place - I couldn't care less what sexuality anyone is - gay? Tear away. Bisexual? Cool with me, trans hetrosexuals etc etc I couldn't give a sh1t so long as they're consenting adults it is no one else's business.
I can't speak for others mentioning his sexuality, but it was brought up here in the context that he opposed SSM, and later came out and championed them when it was politically advantageous to do so.
Yeah - he wanted to deny others the same rights that hetrosexuals have been enjoying since forever to try and further his own political career, and did the exact opposite a short while later and for the exact same reasons.
That's the only reason his sexuality was mentioned, it was mighty odd that a gay man entirely of his own bat stood up and opposed SSM, he didn't have to make any comment on them at all, but he did.
I can't think of any other gay politicians that made speeches against the introduction of SSM maybe you do?
I do not care for the thinly veiled homophobic insinuating comments either. You know you're on the road to nothing when that's all is in the tank.
You contradict yourself within the same post.
Nobody else makes anything of this except you. It is a low-level smear based on the man's sexuality.0 -
What I would like to see, and I have yet to see it, is a proper analysis of exactly how much the multinationals contribute to the Irish economy along side how much we as a country subsidise them or lose in tax revenue.
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Well, if they weren't here, we would get 0 in tax revenues from them.0 -
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I am not denying that FDI has benefited Ireland. The point I made, quite clearly I thought, is that how much has it cost the Irish state to bring that FDI into the country, and is it possible that a similar investment in indigenous Irish companies giving them similar tax breaks and incentives might have resulted in a similar amount of job creation.
If it were that simple, eh? Look at Northern Ireland for example. Its easy to say just support local enterprise, but much harder to create a new Google or Facebook or Intel. These companies are true unicorns. It's like the idea PBP had of nationalising Dell as if that would protect the jobs. :rolleyes:
There are tonnes of material online detailing the success of FDI into Ireland, so much so other countries have copied the model.
If another country is copying you, you are onto a good thing.
So, in summary you know very little of how FDI, globalism, or global supply chains work. All the 'what if's' in the world wont change that.0 -
You contradict yourself within the same post.
Nobody else makes anything of this except you. It is a low-level smear based on the man's sexuality.
The fact that he is a gay man who spoke out against SSM being introduced was kind of pertinent to the tale.
If you think I'm being homophobic report it to a moderator, and let them decide, otherwise just deal with the point in question.0 -
This is the same type of stuff we see on Twitter about Leo.
There is downright homophobic and outright racist bile written about him.
Here, in this thread, although it's not outright homophobic in the same nasty sense we see on Twitter, dare I say there is unconscious homophobia at play from those that hate him.
Like, we are not discussing MLM or MM's sexual preferences are we, yet Leos one seems to crop up all the time. I wonder why? :rolleyes:
So, yea, when I see FB going on about him being 'gay' for the 200th time, I wonder what is he really trying to say?
His sexual preference had nothing to do with him opposing reform.
He was either for SSM or against it. 100's of thousands of unknown and unimportant sexual preferences were for SSM because it was a human right.0 -
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What I would like to see, and I have yet to see it, is a proper analysis of exactly how much the multinationals contribute to the Irish economy along side how much we as a country subsidise them or lose in tax revenue.
I am not totally convinced that multinationals contribute as much is claimed to the Irish economy,
I'll have a look.
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-bii/businessinireland2017/
https://www.cso.ie/en/csolatestnews/presspages/2020/foreigndirectinvestmentinireland2018/
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-fdi/foreigndirectinvestmentinireland2018/0 -
What I would like to see, and I have yet to see it, is a proper analysis of exactly how much the multinationals contribute to the Irish economy along side how much we as a country subsidise them or lose in tax revenue.
If anyone has seen that breakdown I would very much appreciate a link.
383,000 jobs
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-fdi/foreigndirectinvestmentinireland2018/ae/
54k average wages, vs 37k for Irish firms.0 -
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dundalkfc10 wrote: »No he didn't, advice is not to have a picnic in the park.
I didn't see much evidence either way but that's advice. Not law breaking.plus in a picture I seen there was a guard with them. I'm sure if it was illegal they'd be pulled on it or at least I'd hope that to be the case. Now I'm not sure a SF polician doing the same would get the pass but that just seems to be the cookie crumbles at the moment with the press.0 -
The fact that he is a gay man who spoke out against SSM being introduced was kind of pertinent to the tale.
If you think I'm being homophobic report it to a moderator, and let them decide, otherwise just deal with the point in question.FrancieBrady wrote: »His sexual preference had nothing to do with him opposing reform.
He was either for SSM or against it. 100's of thousands of unknown and unimportant sexual preferences were for SSM because it was a human right.
What you don't understand is that
(1) There is absolutely nothing wrong with a gay person being opposed to same-sex marriage. That comes down to their personal and religious beliefs not their sexuality. A pregnant woman can be for or against abortion, ditto a mother, nothing to do with their maternal nature.
(2) Many many people changed their mind on the issue. Varadkar ended up leading the change, so I guess that sticks in the craw for some, but they would be better off getting over it.
(3) Repeatedly mentioning Varadkar's sexuality is low-level homophobia (below trolling level so not possible to prove) akin to "look over there at the gay man", there is no getting away from that. The only people you see talking about it are Sinn Fein voters and supporters, which really says it all.0 -
What you don't understand is that
(1) There is absolutely nothing wrong with a gay person being opposed to same-sex marriage. That comes down to their personal and religious beliefs not their sexuality. A pregnant woman can be for or against abortion, ditto a mother, nothing to do with their maternal nature.
(2) Many many people changed their mind on the issue. Varadkar ended up leading the change, so I guess that sticks in the craw for some, but they would be better off getting over it.
(3) Repeatedly mentioning Varadkar's sexuality is low-level homophobia (below trolling level so not possible to prove) akin to "look over there at the gay man", there is no getting away from that. The only people you see talking about it are Sinn Fein voters and supporters, which really says it all.
So you are saying that well into the 2000's Leo was trying, like the DUP, to impose his religious and moral beliefs on everyone else?
Could be that ok. Either way you swing it, it doesn't reflect well on him.0 -
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FrancieBrady wrote: »So you are saying that well into the 2000's Leo was trying, like the DUP, to impose his religious and moral beliefs on everyone else?
Could be that ok. Either way you swing it, it doesn't reflect well on him.
Jesus Francie, where did you get that from?
Surely the whole point of the referendums, was to give people the choice and the right to do as they please and not be dictated to by any particular religious or others moral beliefs.
That's a funny old twist you put on that one.0 -
Topgear on Dave wrote: »Good one here.
https://www.thecork.ie/2020/01/20/question-who-is-cork-largest-employer-answer-apple-with-6000-staff/
For all the hot air about the money held in the apple account it's fairly small potatoes in the scheme of MNC investment in Ireland.
The intel place alone is investing few billion in their factory now.
That's an article about the IDA and Varadkar thanking Apple.Apple tax: Tech firm got €18m in grants for Cork plant as well as logistical support
When it first came here in 1980, a 10-year tax holiday for multinationals was in effect which meant it paid no corporation tax until 1990.
Companies that arrived a year later were not so lucky as the scheme had been wrapped up under a prior agreement with Brussels as part of the conditions of Ireland’s entry to the EU.
But Apple had fair warning that their vacation was coming to an end and restructured itself to create Apple Sales International in 1990. This was the main mechanism by which the company has managed to avoid Irish taxes since.
In 1991, the first of two tax rulings by Revenue setting out the company’s tax status came into effect. It was replaced by a similar one in 2007. Both had the effect of extracting tax at a rate that varied from a very modest 4% to a barely visible 0.005%.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/apple-tax-tech-firm-got-18m-in-grants-for-cork-plant-as-well-as-logistical-support-418782.html'Doffing the cap' to Apple is a bad look for Ireland Inc
Sure enough, business news agency Bloomberg headlined its piece on the award, “Apple’s Cook Set For Irish Award After Years Of Tax Disputes.”
Yes, Apple has been a good employer here, and now has one of the largest workforces in Ireland. Apple also was here before many of the internet-era come-latelys but then, so were others who have endured and expanded, including IBM, Intel, and Microsoft.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/doffing-the-cap-to-apple-is-a-bad-look-for-ireland-inc-1.4141006
Waiting on specifics for Apple pumping billions into the Irish economy.0 -
You contradict yourself within the same post.
Nobody else makes anything of this except you. It is a low-level smear based on the man's sexuality.
And yourself of course. You've a habit of using Varadkar's sexuality to infer homophobia and the like from critics even when his sexuality is not mentioned. You get great mileage out of using Mr. Varadkar's sexuality to try score points.0 -
Bishop of hope wrote: »Jesus Francie, where did you get that from?
Surely the whole point of the referendums, was to give people the choice and the right to do as they please and not be dictated to by any particular religious or others moral beliefs.
That's a funny old twist you put on that one.
I was responding to this1) There is absolutely nothing wrong with a gay person being opposed to same-sex marriage. That comes down to their personal and religious beliefs not their sexuality. A pregnant woman can be for or against abortion, ditto a mother, nothing to do with their maternal nature.
I think a politician refusing rights on the basis of their own belief, moral system is wrong.
I'm not saying that was the case btw...it's blanch's theory. I think it was Leo's mercenary instincts, displayed elsewhere too.0 -
Have tried to wade through all that, but to be honest Geuze, I cant see the information I was looking for.
What I could see is that of the 1.5 trillion that was claimed to be FDI investment the vast majority of it was passing through. Only €212 Billion was remaining inward FDI which accounts for less than 15% of that total.
I know you know you stuff when it come to economics so I will not argue with you, but what I was hoping to see in a report somewhere is something like
This is what the government has spent, forgone in tax revenues, or subsidised to attract FDI versus This is the total FDI money that has gone into Irish wages, paid to Irish suppliers or contractors, along with the total tax revenue generated from that FDI.
What I am curious about is how much of a bang for buck are we getting from FDI if we compared that to equal investment, subsidies and tax breaks for indigenous Irish companies.
My gut instinct would be that we would get better bang for buck from aiding indigenous Irish companies in a similar way to the way we aid FDI, but it is likely that this is a case of economies of scale. We get less bang for buck from FDI but there is a whole lot more of it, compared to better bang for buck form indigenous Irish companies but the opportunities and scale would be less.0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »His sexual preference had nothing to do with him opposing reform.
He was either for SSM or against it. 100's of thousands of unknown and unimportant sexual preferences were for SSM because it was a human right.
Yet, here you are discussing his sexual preferences...again.
You know the saying about a duck?0 -
And yourself of course. You've a habit of using Varadkar's sexuality to infer homophobia and the like from critics even when his sexuality is not mentioned. You get great mileage out of using Mr. Varadkar's sexuality to try score points.
To be honest that is a bit rich from someone whos previous handle/username was the name of Leo Varadkar's gay partner, Matt Barrett.
To be honest it was all a bit, lets say weird, on top of your deluge of anti-FG/Leo posts.
Like, who is MLMD's partner, or MM's? Who cares really?
It would be a bit weird for someone to change their handler to lets say MLMD's husband, while they proceed to post anti-SF commentary, would you not agree?
If Leo Varadkar was not gay then there was no way in hell you would have used his wife/girlfriends name as your handler. That to me is low-level unconscious homophobia. You will of course deny it, but by using Matt Barrett's as your handler is certainly questionable.0 -
My gut instinct would be that we would get better bang for buck from aiding indigenous Irish companies in a similar way to the way we aid FDI, but it is likely that this is a case of economies of scale. We get less bang for buck from FDI but there is a whole lot more of it, compared to better bang for buck form indigenous Irish companies but the opportunities and scale would be less.
Again, you would be wrong.
If it were that simple, why don't other countries just magic up an indigenous Intel or Amazon or Google or Apple or Phizers or Elli Lilly...
One can support SME's or smaller indigenous companies to a certain extent but let's not go down the Dev economic path of trying to be self-sustainable either with its dire economic consequences. Larger countries like ours have tried this, to much failure.0 -
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Again, you would be wrong.
If it were that simple, why don't other countries just magic up an indigenous Intel or Amazon or Google or Apple or Phizers or Elli Lilly...
One can support SME's or smaller indigenous companies to a certain extent but let's not go down the Dev economic path of trying to be self-sustainable either with its dire economic consequences. Larger countries like ours have tried this, to much failure.
You are constantly telling people they are wrong, but never provide the evidence prove it.
Again read what I say and how I say it. I was not stating a fact I was asking questions. If the evidence is there, then I will accept the evidence.
I'm not suggesting a DeVelera Ireland either. That man did as much harm to this country as the British did for 400 years before him.
I totally get that FDI is good for the country, everything that adds to our economy is welcome. What I was curious about is the return on investment between supporting Multinationals and the return we would get if we gave those same supports to indigenous Irish companies.
Is it that the reason for the emphasis on FDI is not that they give better value but because they offer bigger employment opportunities, or would there be no difference, or quite possibly that the same supports for indigenous Irish companies would give a lesser return.
Sometime it's not a binary situation where it is either or, sometime you will go for the more expensive option because a smaller supplier cannot deliver in bulk. I was just curious with regard to the support we give to FDI, how much bang for buck we get from those supports and whether they might give similar results but on a smaller scale supporting indigenous Irish companies. Maybe giving those supports to indigenous companies, would return very little.
I understand some of you are on here just for a daily point scoring exercise, that fine shoot away as you normally do in your usual adversarial way but keep it to yourselves if you are not willing to actually answer the question asked, you all know who you are on both sides of the political divide. But some of us are genuinely interested in learning and expanding our knowledge, and that starts by asking what we might consider to be pertinent questions.
You see the difference between you and Geuze is that he actually does know his stuff, will try to answer if he can even if we might differ in views.
I have a ton of respect for him and others like him, I have little respect for yourself and others like you who seem to be on here only to score points without answering direct questions or being prepared to back up their claims.
If you know the answer to my question feel free to answer, if you don't then do your point scoring elsewhere.0
This discussion has been closed.
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