FG to just do nothing for the next 5 years.

smurgen

blanch152 wrote: »

How come when a statistic is comprehensively debunked and shown up to be untrue on these boards, it manages to reappear within a couple of weeks?

Show the "correct" statistics. Looking forward to the correction.

blanch152

smurgen wrote: »

Show the "correct" statistics. Looking forward to the correction.

It has been done over many times. From the UK not counting nursing home deaths to the Chinese pretending that nobody has died in the last three months to the poor Afghans not having any way to count their deaths to the Brazilians pretending there isn't a virus, etc. those statistics are completely meaningless.

The only true statistic will be when you measure excess mortality in 2020 by country, as that will tell us the real picture. Initial indications show Ireland is doing really well by that statistic, but it is way too early to know. That will also address the issue of whether the Covid-19 measures killed people in other ways while saving them from the virus.

In your rush to jump on your anti-FG bandwagon, you neglected to look beyond the headline.

smurgen

blanch152 wrote: »

It has been done over many times. From the UK not counting nursing home deaths to the Chinese pretending that nobody has died in the last three months to the poor Afghans not having any way to count their deaths to the Brazilians pretending there isn't a virus, etc. those statistics are completely meaningless.

The only true statistic will be when you measure excess mortality in 2020 by country, as that will tell us the real picture. Initial indications show Ireland is doing really well by that statistic, but it is way too early to know. That will also address the issue of whether the Covid-19 measures killed people in other ways while saving them from the virus.

In your rush to jump on your anti-FG bandwagon, you neglected to look beyond the headline.

The UK is already at number 2 if they move to number 1 that doesn't change Ireland's position.show me stats that Ireland isn't number 7?the excess death analysis I've seen points to these numbers being correct. It seems to me there's a attempt to muddy the waters to the stats can be dismissed.

RandomViewer

smurgen wrote: »

Show the "correct" statistics. Looking forward to the correction.

I'm a bit wary of any numbers released in the last few weeks , get a notion there is a bit of massaging of the statistics, hope I'm wrong.

FrancieBrady

RandomViewer wrote: »

I'm a bit wary of any numbers released in the last few weeks , get a notion there is a bit of massaging of the statistics, hope I'm wrong.

Sunday Business Post doing a story on it tomorrow.

https://mobile.twitter.com/businessposthq/status/1271917762818920448/photo/1

PommieBast

Bowie wrote: »

Looking after the tax payer and not pandering to multinationals and pals to the detriment of the tax payer would be nice.

Name an electable party that actually has a credible plan to reduce taxpayer burden and I will become a member tomorrow...

Suckit

blanch152 wrote: »

Yes, they are pre-Covid. And we learned a few things through Covid.

A lot of those homeless suddenly found a place to go and live when the alternative was risking getting the virus. It was an eye-opener.

Ditto the way the A&E Departments emptied of chancers, drunks and hypochondriacs.

Even the frontline healthcare staff (who have since done a magnificent job) managed to up their game to clear the backlogs.

Who would have known so much could be achieved in such a short while. Meanwhile, you are stuck repeating the same old broken record.

Sounds like the "we" you mention actually learned nothing through covid.

Bishop of hope

RandomViewer wrote: »

I'm a bit wary of any numbers released in the last few weeks , get a notion there is a bit of massaging of the statistics, hope I'm wrong.

No you don't!

Mortelaro

smurgen wrote: »

The UK is already at number 2 if they move to number 1 that doesn't change Ireland's position.show me stats that Ireland isn't number 7?the excess death analysis I've seen points to these numbers being correct. It seems to me there's a attempt to muddy the waters to the stats can be dismissed.

Excess deaths caused by people afraid to go to their Doctor for fear of catching Covid is not Fine Gaels fault
It's a personal decision
Fault doesn't come into it anywhere actually
Ergo its moot in a thread like this

Bishop of hope

Just watching virgin TV.
It seems Leo is the favourite choice by a mile for Taoiseach out of the current leaders of the parties involved in the Govt formation talks.
That doesent surprise me given the narrow choice, but if Catherine got the green gig it could change perhaps.
Michael isn't a popular choice at all and is likely to be the first Taoiseach, not looking forward to having to listen to him explaining the future to us.
This coalition deal and its policies might be half OK, but putting MM out front first will be a disaster pr wise imo

McMurphy

Bishop of hope wrote: »

Just watching virgin TV.
It seems Leo is the favourite choice by a mile for Taoiseach out of the current leaders of the parties involved in the Govt formation talks.
That doesent surprise me given the narrow choice, but if Catherine got the green gig it could change perhaps.
Michael isn't a popular choice at all and is likely to be the first Taoiseach, not looking forward to having to listen to him explaining the future to us.
This coalition deal and its policies might be half OK, but putting MM out front first will be a disaster pr wise imo

Just wondering if you seen this post Bishop?

McMurphy wrote: »

Just curious bishop, seeing as you went multiple posts the other morning sticking to your script.

Did you think Eamon Ryan was racist yesterday when he used the n word?

Will be interesting to hear your thoughts on that one, surely you wouldn't hold Eamon to different standards than that of the bearded one.

smurgen

Mortelaro wrote: »

Excess deaths caused by people afraid to go to their Doctor for fear of catching Covid is not Fine Gaels fault
It's a personal decision
Fault doesn't come into it anywhere actually
Ergo its moot in a thread like this

Even if that was true and that's a big if it's still FG's job to manage the information people received. Fault does come into it when the nursing homes are taken into account I'm afraid.watch and see. As much as this is attempted to be ignored,shut down and dismissed it will come up time and time again until people are held responsible. It's a disgrace.

Bobeagleburger

Covid-19 has helped FG I believe. The last few months nobody has has been talking about the GE, and it has subsequently taken the wind out of Sinn Feins sails.

Imo, they've taken their time to form a government purposely. What's the hurry. It keeps the opposition out of the picture for even longer. The priority was dealing with Covid, which the majority would say was handled pretty well all things considered.

kilkenny31

6 wrote: »

Covid-19 has helped FG I believe. The last few months nobody has has been talking about the GE, and it has subsequently taken the wind out of Sinn Feins sails.

Imo, they've taken their time to form a government purposely. What's the hurry. It keeps the opposition out of the picture for even longer. The priority was dealing with Covid, which the majority would say was handled pretty well all things considered.

I don't think COVID19 has taken the wind out of Sinn Feins sails. I think it has taken the wind out of finna fails. I think its very much a fine gale vs sinn féin from now on.

Bobeagleburger

kilkenny31 wrote: »

I don't think COVID19 has taken the wind out of Sinn Feins sails. I think it has taken the wind out of finna fails. I think its very much a fine gale vs sinn féin from now on.

Yes, FF definitely out of the loop the last 3 or 4 months.

kilkenny31

6 wrote: »

Yes, FF definitely out of the loop the last 3 or 4 months.

If an election was held tomorrow I think finna fail would take less than 20 seats. Fine gale around to 50 and the same with sinn féin. I think in the next election any of the smaller left parties that gained in the last election will not do as well. They gained seats due to the "transfer left" because sinn féin didn't have enough candidates.

Leonard Hofstadter

Leo is the current favourite to be Taoiseach, by a mile. Nearly one in two voters (48%) want him to stay on.

https://www.thejournal.ie/leo-varadkar-taoiseach-opinion-poll-5122414-Jun2020/

Expect to see many more pages on this thread of mass hysteria and manufactured outrage towards FG as a result.

FrancieBrady

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

Leo is the current favourite to be Taoiseach, by a mile. Nearly one in two voters (48%) want him to stay on.

https://www.thejournal.ie/leo-varadkar-taoiseach-opinion-poll-5122414-Jun2020/

Expect to see many more pages on this thread of mass hysteria and manufactured outrage towards FG as a result.

...of the parties involved in coalition talks...he is favourite.

I would have him as my favourite of the 3 too. Martin as Taoiseach? Shudder!

McMurphy

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

Leo is the current favourite to be Taoiseach, by a mile. Nearly one in two voters (48%) want him to stay on.

https://www.thejournal.ie/leo-varadkar-taoiseach-opinion-poll-5122414-Jun2020/

Expect to see many more pages on this thread of mass hysteria and manufactured outrage towards FG as a result.

How many wanted to see Mary Lou enter as a new Taoiseach?

Martin v Varadkar?

That's like asking what flavour of a turd sandwich you'd prefer.

Mortelaro

smurgen wrote: »

Even if that was true and that's a big if it's still FG's job to manage the information people receive.

It's not a big if
Any gp or specialist will tell you people aint going
That's not FG's fault
An information campaign saying you're safe to visit gp's and hospitals at a time when theres already one saying stay away from people with it
Give me a break

As for nursing homes,early analysis done adnauseum on that one here
First 30 days into this pandemic when we were learning was to get icu beds,field hospitals etc ready and let them get sparse PPE
Once the virus got into certain nursing homes, it couldn't be got out
Some of the better run of the nursing homes had no virus at all
Run for profit primarily, some others simply could not cope

Again not FG's fault
Oh and please don't peddle international comparisons with countries that dont count the virus or deaths as accurately as us unless it's to show how good we have been doing
Its disingenuous

Listen instead to Dr Navarro of WHO's closing comments at the coronavirus committee the other day
Much praise
He knows what he is talking about a tad more than you or I

dundalkfc10

Mortelaro wrote: »

It's not a big if
Any gp or specialist will tell you people aint going
That's not FG's fault
An information campaign saying you're safe to visit gp's and hospitals at a time when theres already one saying stay away from people with it
Give me a break

As for nursing homes,early analysis done adnauseum on that one here
First 30 days into this pandemic when we were learning was to get icu beds,field hospitals etc ready and let them get sparse PPE
Once the virus got into certain nursing homes, it couldn't be got out
Some of the better run of the nursing homes had no virus at all
Run for profit primarily, some others simply could not cope

Again not FG's fault
Oh and please don't peddle international comparisons with countries that dont count the virus or deaths as accurately as us unless it's to show how good we have been doing
Its disingenuous

Listen instead to Dr Navarro of WHO's closing comments at the coronavirus committee the other day
Much praise
He knows what he is talking about a tad more than you or I

People were sent to Nursing Homes from hospitals who were not even tested.

This happened in state run homes aswell as private.

The Govt are to blame end off

You will prob tell us now FG are not to blame for the over 10,000 homeless

Mortelaro

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

People were sent to Nursing Homes from hospitals who were not even tested.

This happened in state run homes aswell as private.

The Govt are to blame end off

You will prob tell us now FG are not to blame for the over 10,000 homeless

Again,best practice there probably should have been for nursing homes to isolate those for 2 weeks
They couldnt be tested because there was a shortage of test kits at the time WORLDWIDE
Getting them out of hospitals where they could get covid seemed early in play like a good idea
They would not have been sent out if they were sick
Again not FG's fault
Much as you might like it to be
It's not

As for homelessness, I think there were numerous contributory factors
But let's not conflate that in the same post as the lie that FG wete responsible for excess nursing home deaths or indeed that Ireland has been doing badly
They weren't and we arent

efanton

Mortelaro wrote: »

It's not a big if
Any gp or specialist will tell you people aint going
That's not FG's fault
An information campaign saying you're safe to visit gp's and hospitals at a time when theres already one saying stay away from people with it
Give me a break

But that's only half the story isn't it.

Try getting an appointment with your local GP and you are told it's now by appointment only. Makes sense you would think, who would expect sick people to congregate in a GP's waiting room while there is a virus pandemic?
But the problem is where you might be waiting 4 or 5 days for an appointment before the pandemic now you have to wait well over a week.
If you have to wait more than a week to see a GP most will not even bother, will visit their pharmacist instead, or leave medical issues linger which is building up into a healthcare time bomb for this country.

If you cant get to your GP you certainly are not going to get that referral to a hospital unless you require A&E.

If you already have been referred to a hospital, many are simply not functioning normally. I have a referral to an orthopaedic hospital now for 4 months to fix a torn tendon or ligament. I am still waiting for even a letter from that hospital let alone an actual appointment.

I am sure its perfectly safe to visit your GP or hospital but when they will not give you an appointment, and you cant get access to either saying that 'its safe to visit a GP or hospital' as if it is people choosing not to access healthcare is definitely a case of the government and HSE sending out contradictory messages.

Mortelaro

I do not know what surgery you attend but my experience during the pandemic at mine is same day surgery appointment
Same day call backs by the gp and in out of Vincent's A and E with a sprain in less than an hour

dundalkfc10

Mortelaro wrote: »

Again,best practice there probably should have been for nursing homes to isolate those for 2 weeks
They couldnt be tested because there was a shortage of test kits at the time WORLDWIDE
Getting them out of hospitals where they could get covid seemed early in play like a good idea
They would not have been sent out if they were sick
Again not FG's fault
Much as you might like it to be
It's not

As for homelessness, I think there were numerous contributory factors
But let's not conflate that in the same post as the lie that FG wete responsible for excess nursing home deaths or indeed that Ireland has been doing badly
They weren't and we arent

Did Nursing Home patients get moved to hospitals without getting tested? Answer is yes, that's the Govt fault as they are making the decisions (they tell us anyway)

Had the Homeless situation got worse since FG were running the Govt? A simple yes or no will do

Mortelaro

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

Did Nursing Home patients get moved to hospitals without getting tested? Answer is yes, that's the Govt fault as they are making the decisions (they tell us anyway)

Had the Homeless situation got worse since FG were running the Govt? A simple yes or no will do

I'm presuming but I dont know,that if you are suspected of coronavirus in hospital you are tested for it
Regarding homelessness
The 1st 5 years of FG's 9 in government involved the country having no money,mass emigration of house building labourers and highering of taxes
Even today we dont have the numbers to build because they went elsewhere
If you can find a country in recent times that underwent the level of crash we did thats managed to build also 10's of 1000's of homes in the right places during that time,I'll tip my hat

Now please dont conflate covid and housing in the one post
They are separate issues

dundalkfc10

Mortelaro wrote: »

I'm presuming but I dont know,that if you are suspected of coronavirus in hospital you are tested for it
Regarding homelessness
The 1st 5 years of FG's 9 in government involved the country having no money,mass emigration of house building labourers and highering of taxes
Even today we dont have the numbers to build because they went elsewhere
If you can find a country in recent times that underwent the level of crash we did thats managed to build also 10's of 1000's of homes in the right places during that time,I'll tip my hat

Now please dont conflate covid and housing in the one post
They are separate issues

https://twitter.com/patphelan/status/1272076624524201984?s=19

A fine job they are doing alright

Kivaro

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

You will prob tell us now FG are not to blame for the over 10,000 homeless

There are not 10,000 homeless people in this country.
There are 10,000 people, where the vast majority are looking for forever homes (for life) at the expense of the tax payer.
Irrespective of the billions that the tax payer have to fork out in the coming years from their wage packets in order to pay for brand new social homes, the 10,000 number per year will never diminish; as the hundreds of housing NGOs/organisations need those numbers in order to stay relevant. If that involves importing "homeless" people in from outside the country, then that will be supported by these NGO CEOs. The worker will always be required to pick up the tab though, and the scam will eventually implode.

Bobeagleburger

Mortelaro wrote: »

I do not know what surgery you attend but my experience during the pandemic at mine is same day surgery appointment
Same day call backs by the gp and in out of Vincent's A and E with a sprain in less than an hour

The doctors were very quiet during the pandemic. People were staying away from them. They should still have attended for serious matters.

efanton

Mortelaro wrote: »

I do not know what surgery you attend but my experience during the pandemic at mine is same day surgery appointment
Same day call backs by the gp and in out of Vincent's A and E with a sprain in less than an hour

Well there's Dublin and then there the rest of the country. nothing new there.
I think services in rural areas have been heavily affected by this pandemic.

But my point remains, its obvious that covid the affected both GP and hospital services an to suggest that these have not been affected is just plain wrong.
In some places it might be less visible in other more so.



What is cracking me up this morning is that I am hearing FG are hoping to introduce yet more tax cuts if if this coalition goes ahead. Yet they tell us that there will have to be a tightening of the belt to pay for covid.
Have they learnt nothing?

The main reason they had to put the country and its economy into an almost total shutdown is because our services would have been totally inadequate to deal with a serious outbreak. Surely the lesson to take away from the covid crisis is that we need to address the short comings of our health system as a priority rather than have thoughts of tax cuts.
In 2000 we had approx 23,000 hospital beds, in 2017 we only had 14,000 many of which are private hospital beds.