FG to just do nothing for the next 5 years.

Topgear on Dave

efanton wrote: »

Suggesting a government could be formed without a least two of FF, SF or FG being involved is simply not a reality.

True but I cant see SF agreeing to prop up one of the power swap parties. That isn't they change they campaign for and keep saying is needed.

A coalition with FF would be the fairly standard coalition we have had for the last forty years.

SF are surely confident enough now to go for another election, run more candidates and wipe the floor with the other parties. Arent they?

Surely the days of FF and FG domination are now over.

blanch152

efanton wrote: »

But it doesnt really leave 87 seats does it.

19 of those seats are Independent. We are all well aware that many of those went independent to save their own political ar$e, but in reality are PD, FF or FG in everything but name.
Does anyone honestly believe that although independent in name they are all ambivalent to which party they will support?

As it stands with Labour refusing to join any coalition, SF would require ALL parties except FF/FG to join a coalition and also require an additional 11 out of 19 Independent seats.

Suggesting a government could be formed without a least two of FF, SF or FG being involved is simply not a reality.

You are making big assumptions about the independents. From what I have read over the last few days, not a single one of them has shown any inclination to support the FF/FG/Green Programme for Government. Why wouldn't they support the alternative?

Topgear on Dave

blanch152 wrote: »

You are making big assumptions about the independents. From what I have read over the last few days, not a single one of them has shown any inclination to support the FF/FG/Green Programme for Government. Why wouldn't they support the alternative?

It sounds as if none of these indo TDs want to get involved in actually running the country, can I be the only one wondering exactly wtf they thought being a national TD would actually entail?

That crowd above all need to sh*t or get off the pot.

dundalkfc10

Harris the clown 3 weeks ago promised a road map for re-opening of all Health Services/

3 weeks down, No Roadmap.

Bishop of hope

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

It sounds as if none of these indo TDs want to get involved in actually running the country, can I be the only one wondering exactly wtf they thought being a national TD would actually entail?

That crowd above all need to sh*t or get off the pot.

Probably not true of all, some, would be chomping for a deal that might bring something to their constituency.
The last govt was propped up by the IA if you remember. Lots of previous govts have used independents too.

Sinn Féin for some reason seems to be discounted by most though.

is_that_so

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

Harris the clown 3 weeks ago promised a road map for re-opening of all Health Services/

3 weeks down, No Roadmap.

He's not the one planning the roadmap, the HSE are, and they did say the end of the month.

efanton

blanch152 wrote: »

You are making big assumptions about the independents. From what I have read over the last few days, not a single one of them has shown any inclination to support the FF/FG/Green Programme for Government. Why wouldn't they support the alternative?

THe independent are not a block of 19 seats.

You agree that they have no inclination to support a FF/FG/Green coalition and yet many of these Independents are FF/FG in everything but name and hold similar political views.

Surely your own argument would suggest that they would be more likely to support a FF/FG/Green coalition and yet you say this is not possible

Personally I dont think it is possible to include 11 independents in ANY coalition that would provide a stable government. That's simple to many independents for any government to have to pander to.

If that is a the case then patently what I have said, that two of the three leading parties must be the basis of any coalition, must be the case in the current circumstances.

If the Greens will not support a FF/FG coalition then its up to FF to decide what is going to happen next.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

This is the last thing I am going to say on this, because I am sure that I am not the only one tired of the constant obfuscation and misrepresentation in the back and forth process that is being used here. So I will keep it as simple as I can.

FACT: I didn't lie
LEGITIMATE OPINION: My posts are being disingenuously misrepresented.



FACT: A previously unknown FG councillor made a cryptic post on Twitter with a picture of what seemed to be a Blueshirt rally
SILLY UNSUBSTANTIATED OPINION: This clearly demonstrates that FG admire fascists

FACT: Varadkar used quotations from contemporary movies in some of his speeches, sometimes the language was so ordinary (e.g. "there are no limits") that it can't be confirmed they were definitive movie references.
REASONABLE OPINION: Whether clumsy or not, these are genuine attempts to reach out to a broader audience than those who prefer Shakespearian quotations
UNSUBSTANTIATED CONSPIRACY THEORY: He was doing this to win a bet.
PETTY OPINION: This somehow means he lacks empathy and integrity



FACT: Homelessness numbers are falling in 2020
FACT: Homelessness numbers in the South are better on a per capita basis than in the North
FACT: The statistics on homelessness include people who would not be considered homeless in previous years.

UNSUBSTANTIATED OPINION: FG are making a mess of homelessness




FACT: Denis O'Brien has secured a number of State contracts
FACT: These contracts have been secured through a number of open procurement processes that have not been the subject of complaints to the relevant EU authorities
CONSPIRACY THEORY: Denis O'Brien got these contracts because he is something something friendly with FG.

Nobody disputes the facts, only all the rest is mostly nonsense.

You said there were no facts or links. There were. You then said they were silly or didn't warrant any attention. So you were mistaken. You certainly gave a lot of time and attention to trying to dismiss these throwaway remarks and such.

A FG councilor admired the fascist blueshirts and specifically a tweet likening their resolve to that of FG.
You are now making the complete opposite argument you made about SF Holohan, the one you started a thread on as I recall.

Again, Varadkar did do what was claimed. I never mentioned the bet. You however think both Covid is okay to have a bit of fun with but too serious to be distracted by a FG councilor admiring fascists.

Homelessness has quadrupled in recent years. That's a fact. There was an expected downturn in numbers due to the Covid pandemic. Also a fact.

Agreed. It is a conspiracy theory as to why O'Brien gets all these contracts. I said as much. However everything is a theory until proven. We know Lowry got paid and we await the Sitserv investigation to conclude.

Just to note; you claim all of the above is nonsense yet you are the one dragging them out by dismissing them or at one point claiming there are no links or facts, then dismissing the links and facts as 'silly' because you find them uncomfortable or irksome for reasons best known to yourself

FrancieBrady

Mortelaro wrote: »

I'm not upset at all
A swap is consensual
At no election was there ever any evidence of cooperation between FF and FG to swap power
Out and out ground war between them always
Your description is a slur on the integrity of their voters and their decisions in the face of long proportional representation ballot papers
It's also completely false

Am i criticising voters who went along with the ruse...yes I am. Get over it.
I include my mum and dad in the criticism and my own voting habits.

But the number willing to go along with it or falling for the con is diminishing. Down from a peak of 86% to 44% last time out.

If you are one of the 44% wear the cap, I am criticsiing you too.

ELM327

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

True but I cant see SF agreeing to prop up one of the power swap parties. That isn't they change they campaign for and keep saying is needed.

A coalition with FF would be the fairly standard coalition we have had for the last forty years.

SF are surely confident enough now to go for another election, run more candidates and wipe the floor with the other parties. Arent they?

Surely the days of FF and FG domination are now over.

This is by no means a given.


FG would gain a number of seats and FF lose some from the last election, in all likelihood. This has been discussed here already.


SF are likely at the crest of the wave of new popularity and are unlikely to meet or exceed that high water mark set. Same as for the greens.


IMO if there were an election in the next 3 months (ie before the budget is due) the following would happen:


FG - gain ~15-20 seats mostly from FF and small independents, due to Leos ratings and handling of covid

SF - possibly stable based on running more candidates to make up for losing some of the protest vote they gained last time, along with some votes lost due to doing nothing to form a government except complain from the sidelines

FF - will get hammered, especially as some of the grey vote are likely to not risk leaving the house due to covid

LAB - likely remain as is or drop slightly
SD - will struggle to maintain their high mark from last election, same for GREENs

ELM327

efanton wrote: »

If the Greens will not support a FF/FG coalition then its up to FF to decide what is going to happen next.

No, it's up to the greens. FF + FG have agreed
It will be seen that it's the greens that forced the election, and, parties who force unnecessary elections never do well.

ELM327

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Am i criticising voters who went along with the ruse...yes I am. Get over it.
I include my mum and dad in the criticism and my own voting habits.

But the number willing to go along with it or falling for the con is diminishing. Down from a peak of 86% to 44% last time out.

If you are one of the 44% wear the cap, I am criticsiing you too.

Is the 44% people who voted for FF/FG?
If so I am one of those. Voted FG 1 and FF 2

Brendan Bendar

Slightly off topic but listening to D’Arcy in the motor.

Last county to engage in the All Ireland Zoom is Monaghan.


Why am I not surprised.

Podge_irl

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'Compromising'? like the fact that you are so used to being lied to you call it something else, 'coalition' was never done by compromise here it was done by domination and the subsequent obliteration of the minor party.

The obliteration of the minor party isn't done by FF or FG, it is done by the electorate. My personal view is that it is because the electorate don't welcome compromise all that much and reward ideology. Maybe that's wrong, but a party with 50/60 seats doesn't compromise 50/50 with a party with 10/20. There is nothing particularly wrong with that surely.

FrancieBrady

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Slightly off topic but listening to D’Arcy in the motor.

Last county to engage in the All Ireland Zoom is Monaghan.


Why am I not surprised.

Perceptions and the ability of people to listen properly. Or are they just telling lies for an agenda?

Listening to it here myself Brendan...the last county to be 'asked' to participate is Monaghan.

Some might mention 'leaving the best until last' but I wouldn't be so boastful.

FrancieBrady

Podge_irl wrote: »

The obliteration of the minor party isn't done by FF or FG, it is done by the electorate. My personal view is that it is because the electorate don't welcome compromise all that much and reward ideology. Maybe that's wrong, but a party with 50/60 seats doesn't compromise 50/50 with a party with 10/20. There is nothing particularly wrong with that surely.

Minor parties end up taking the fall. They are manipulated by the more powerful who have no interest in doing coalition properly.
A coalition should be executing a programme for government that gives way to the interests of all involved.

They invariably don't here, we get flowery 'wishlists' that get forgotten about once the i's are dotted and the t's are crossed and the leader gets back from the Aras.
That leads to a situation where the smaller party has to fight a rearguard action and ends up losing it's own support. How many times does it need to happen?

Mortelaro

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Am i criticising voters who went along with the ruse...yes I am. Get over it.
I include my mum and dad in the criticism and my own voting habits.

But the number willing to go along with it or falling for the con is diminishing. Down from a peak of 86% to 44% last time out.

If you are one of the 44% wear the cap, I am criticsiing you too.

I don't need to get over anything because as has already been pointed out to you several times,I give even less of a sh1te about what you think of me than you do of what I think of you(if such a thing is possible)

efanton

ELM327 wrote: »

No, it's up to the greens. FF + FG have agreed
It will be seen that it's the greens that forced the election, and, parties who force unnecessary elections never do well.

My point was if the Greens reject the coalition deal then its down to FF to agree a collation with SF, or push for a unity government or we are the in the situation where another election is required.

I'm not playing the blame game here. If FG do not want to deal with SF that is their right and the mandate they got elected on.

FF however cannot make the same claim as FG can.
They were elected on a mandate that FG should not be in government under any circumstance. They also stated they would not consider SF as a coalition partner. Having broken one promise, the question will have to be answered will they break the second. Only FF can answer that.
That is why it would be down to FF to call the next move.

I dont think it would be fair to blame FF FG or the Greens that a coalition could not be formed. They all have their own agenda and the only thing they can do is see if there is enough common agreement for a government to be formed. If it turns out there is not, then you cant blame any of them for trying.

James Brown

ELM327 wrote: »

No, it's up to the greens. FF + FG have agreed
It will be seen that it's the greens that forced the election, and, parties who force unnecessary elections never do well.

The funny thing is everyone is talking about the perception as separate to the reality. I think very few who didn't vote FG last time will do so if another election was called simply because they believe FG 'stepped up'. They may indeed sway toward FG for other reasons. It's spin when compared to the societal crises FG seem unwilling to acknowledge as anything to do with them and things will be worse after Covid.

FrancieBrady

Mortelaro wrote: »

I don't need to get over anything because as has already been pointed out to you several times,I give even less of a sh1te about what you think of me than you do of what I think of you(if such a thing is possible)

Well then stop with the 'kindly stop using' censorship attempts.

If you don't care about me why do you care about an opinion...scroll on.

James Brown

Mortelaro wrote: »

I don't need to get over anything because as has already been pointed out to you several times,I give even less of a sh1te about what you think of me than you do of what I think of you(if such a thing is possible)

Mortelaro wrote: »

...
Boy ye are angry

Mortelaro wrote: »

...
Why do people have to be so angry round here

Careful now. Bren and JF will be along any minute to comment on how angry some are

dundalkfc10

blanch152 wrote: »

Isn't Mary-Lou on record that she wants a government without FF and FG?

Why is she calling on them for talks now?

In fact, her whole election campaign was based on getting rid of the two big parties. Loads and loads of statements. If anyone is going back on their promise, it is her.

No she said she would "prefer" to have a Govt without Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee

Anymore lies ya want to come up with?

ELM327

efanton wrote: »

My point was if the Greens reject the coalition deal then its down to FF to agree a collation with SF, or push for a unity government or we are the in the situation where another election is required.

I'm not playing the blame game here. If FG do not want to deal with SF that is their right and the mandate they got elected on.

FF however cannot make the same claim as FG can.
They were elected on a mandate that FG should not be in government under any circumstance. They also stated they would not consider SF as a coalition partner. Having broken one promise, the question will have to be answered will they break the second. Only FF can answer that.
That is why it would be down to FF to call the next move.

I dont think it would be fair to blame FF FG or the Greens that a coalition could not be formed. They all have their own agenda and the only thing they can do is see if there is enough common agreement for a government to be formed. If it turns out there is not, then you cant blame any of them for trying.

I mean, that's fair and all, but if we have another election it's because the greens rejected the coalition deal.
They can spin it however suits but that's it in a nutshell. I agree with you about Mehole and FF. They've messed up.
FG stuck to their principles of not engaging with the loony left/provos and for that they have me even more entrenched to vote for them again.
Anyone (is there any??) voting FF who would prefer FFSF to FFFG would surely not vote FF then.

Brendan Bendar

Lot of anger on this thread .

Few ‘yellas ‘ (undeserved) being thrown around.

Bit disappointed with that, I have to say.

Wonder who reported.

Lookit... let bygones be bygones.

FrancieBrady

ELM327 wrote: »

I mean, that's fair and all, but if we have another election it's because the greens rejected the coalition deal.
They can spin it however suits but that's it in a nutshell. I agree with you about Mehole and FF. They've messed up.
FG stuck to their principles of not engaging with the loony left/provos and for that they have me even more entrenched to vote for them again.
Anyone (is there any??) voting FF who would prefer FFSF to FFFG would surely not vote FF then.

The minor party taking the flak even when a coalition can't be formed.

dundalkfc10

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Lot of anger on this thread .

Few ‘yellas ‘ (undeserved) being thrown around.

Bit disappointed with that, I have to say.

Wonder who reported.

Lookit... let bygones be bygones.

The FF/G are slowly losing it as they release finally SF are not going anywhere. They can try what they like, say what they like, The People (Especially Youth dont give a ****e what they say) Why would they, they have just been lied to by FF/G for all their lives

Mortelaro

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well then stop with the 'kindly stop using' censorship attempts.

If you don't care about me why do you care about an opinion...scroll on.

To paraphrase Brendan, Francis, its my civic duty to defend the rights of voters and respect their wishes not to be ordered to vote this way,that way or the other
That's all I'm asking
Civic duty means, I'll usually read your posts
You've never been put on my ignore list

FrancieBrady

Mortelaro wrote: »

To paraphrase Brendan, Francis, its my civic duty to defend the rights of voters and respect their wishes not to be ordered to vote this way,that way or the other

What are you on about?

efanton

ELM327 wrote: »

I mean, that's fair and all, but if we have another election it's because the greens rejected the coalition deal.
They can spin it however suits but that's it in a nutshell. I agree with you about Mehole and FF. They've messed up.
FG stuck to their principles of not engaging with the loony left/provos and for that they have me even more entrenched to vote for them again.
Anyone (is there any??) voting FF who would prefer FFSF to FFFG would surely not vote FF then.

Could well be the case that FF might not get the support of their TD's or party members to form a SF/FF coalition. I'm not disputing that fact at all.

But the reality will be on Friday that if the Greens reject the FF/FG coalition its totally down to FF to make a decision.

FG's position is perfectly clear, SF cant form a coalition without either FF or FG joining them, and there is bugger all chance of a SF/FG coalition, so it solely down to what FF decide to do.

It is going to be a FF/SF coalition, a unity government until the covid crisis has passed, or a new election. Throwing blame at any party does not change that reality.

Mortelaro

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What are you on about?

I've asked you to cease and desist slurring voters legitimate right not to vote SF is all by referring to them as participating in a power swap
Swapping is consensual behaviour
Getting an FF government for most FG voters and vice versa up to now has very much not been consensual