Ireland in 3 years under a left wing government.

strathspey

How is it that SF's communist credentials were never brought up in the TV debates and seem to be ignored in the media. You only have to look at the company they keep in the European parliament grouping: European United Left/Nordic Green Left. Bed fellows like the Communist Party of Bohemia and Moravia of the Czech Republic, Syriza of Greece, Portuguese Communist Party etc.

Kivaro

Kivaro wrote: »

I started a thread specifically on the Manifesto topic a couple of days ago, but that discussion was shut down by a mod.

And so it begins ....

Morgans

Morgans wrote: »

Good. That's fair. I would characterise hard left policies of renationalisations - be it broadband, public transport, infrastructure. Those would be interesting debates to have. However, what SF are proposing are nowhere near hard left. You wouldnt think it from the majority of posts on here. And it wont take long for someone to prove my point. I'd hope someone like you would spell out how it was tax breaks for the rich, light touch regulation and a continued kow-towing to the weathly that gave you that lost decade.

Why? No, seriously. That last decade has been discussed to bits already. It's been dissected beyond belief here on boards and on other mediums. We know of the corruption, and negligence. I would have happily lined them all up against a wall and shot them for treason.

However, we're dealing with the present/future now. And we're discussing SF because of their presence. If Labor was a realistic party for the left, we'd be talking about them too, but they're not. SF are a socialist based party, and their policies/statements reflect a strong leftist attitude.

And it is their economic perspective that concerns most of us (along with their links to paramilitary groups). They follow the leftist trend of expecting benefits/increased expenditure with little awareness of how to pay for it, apart from taxing the wealthy or the corporations.

So yes, I would like to see some arguments for the taxing of the corporations that realistically consider that they could leave, and what that would do to the economy. That there are other nations both in the EU and outside, that are attractive bases for multinationals. Simply dismissing these concerns with "it'll be grand" isn't enough for me... because the Irish economy isn't self-sufficient. Or the effect on the economy should professionals in the upper income brackets leave because of increased taxation. Which is a very real possibility, since their skills/experience are in demand in other countries. What would happen to the economy, and what would SF do to combat such changes? or would they just leave it to the next government to resolve?

It's something I've found rather disturbing on these threads about SF or the election. Any criticism of SF is met with some deflection. Nobody seems willing to explain their policies, expectations, or what will happen when they're in power. More importantly, nobody is willing to discuss the state of the economy after their period in power. Instead, it's constantly pushed to complaints about FF/FG or some other deflection to get the attention away from discussing these topics.

Lastly, what do you mean by someone like me?

Geuze

machaseh wrote: »

Ireland under a leftist government:

- Important public transportation infrastructure will finally be built.
- Important cycling infrastructure will finally be built.
- Fewer homeless people, more social housing, rents will become affordable or at least will stop getting more and more expensive every single year for the middle class.
- The public health care system will greatly improve.
- Hopefully more moves towards cannabis legalization and regulation.

On no. 4, we already overspend on h/care, more spending is not the solution.

Maybe a move away from a 2-tier system might help.

Although I don't think left-wing parties will deal with the restrictive union work practices in hosps.

Plumbthedepths

Martin has the backing of his party not to talk to SF. So it's going to be FF/FG and a.n.other party , Indos for the next government.
Leaving SF as the largest opposition party, something I think the Shinners will be happy with.

sondagefaux

douglashyde wrote: »

About 20% of employment is directly FDI (not inc. indirect employment) generating a significant amount of income tax, also 11bn was paid in corporate tax in 2019.

We can't compete like a large economy and we need to offer a range of incentives from talent, infrastructure and tax.

A populist vote to the left while people's intentions are good, will none the less (ironically) have the opposite effect in the long term.

A. Sinn Féin have committed to keeping Ireland's 12.5% tax rate on corporate profits

B. Have a read: https://newforum.org/en/new-paradigm/new-forum-blog-tax-debates-what-really-matters/

James Brown

Ideally, until the market cools, affordable housing for workers. Social housing rentals for lower income workers and the sick, elderly. No reliance on the private market except in emergencies.
Tax the arse on anyone in the multi-billionaire category. Why? Because they can spare it. Ireland being in the top 5 countries per capita for billionaires is disgusting considering.
Tax the hole off Russian oil concerns using Ireland to legally launder money. Why? Because they employ nobody and are connected to Putin.
No state contracts for people with previous contracts under investigation.
Bring in accountability in government. Anyone sacked from a post or having to resign gets a docked pension. Only one pension per politician based on time served.
And somewhere you can get a decent cheeseburger.

GreeBo

machaseh wrote: »

Ireland under a leftist government:

- Important public transportation infrastructure will finally be built.
- Important cycling infrastructure will finally be built.
- Fewer homeless people, more social housing, rents will become affordable or at least will stop getting more and more expensive every single year for the middle class.
- The public health care system will greatly improve.
- Hopefully more moves towards cannabis legalization and regulation.

You forgot to mention the most important difference.
- Pot of gold found under every rainbow

GreeBo

Bowie wrote: »

Ideally, until the market cools, affordable housing for workers. Social housing rentals for lower income workers and the sick, elderly. No reliance on the private market except in emergencies.
Tax the arse on anyone in the multi-billionaire category. Why? Because they can spare it. Ireland being in the top 5 countries per capita for billionaires is disgusting considering.
Tax the hole off Russian oil concerns using Ireland to legally launder money. Why? Because they employ nobody and are connected to Putin.
No state contracts for people with previous contracts under investigation.
Bring in accountability in government. Anyone sacked from a post or having to resign gets a docked pension. Only one pension per politician based on time served.
And somewhere you can get a decent cheeseburger.

What does "affordable housing for workers" mean in s country with near full employment?
Everyone is a worker, so who gets these cheap houses and who doesn't?

douglashyde

sondagefaux wrote: »

A. Sinn Féin have committed to keeping Ireland's 12.5% tax rate on corporate profits

B. Have a read: https://newforum.org/en/new-paradigm/new-forum-blog-tax-debates-what-really-matters/

I've read their manifesto and I'm aware of that, my point about the 11bn paid in corporation tax was in direct response to the statement:

"the massive multinationals etc, have more money than god and are charged a pittance"

I don't believe in the short term Sein Fein would touch corporation tax as it's seen as Ireland's golden goose. I do believe however in the longer term as they "redistribute" wealth, they would inevitable sign up for the EU directorate of a flat corporate tax rate across the EU (being pushed by the bigger economies like France & Germany) massively reducing Ireland's competitiveness.

Give it 15 years and our main export will be cows & people.

Ultimanemo

mullinr2 wrote: »

What would Ireland look like in 3 to 5 years if the lefties get their way?
I reckon there would be a high unemployment rate due to many multinationals upping sticks because of higher taxes. Not only will this affect those jobs in those industries, it would have a knock on affect in the service industry.
We would also be further away from a United Ireland. A border poll showing that people in the North don't want to be part of a leftist state and would be financially better off in the UK.
By abolishing the USC and Property Taxes along with many multinationals leaving, the government has **** all money to spend.

How do you see Ireland under a left government? Be realistic.

I was talking to a friend few days ago saying Ireland will be like Venezuela, when I went home I saw in the news a TD saying Ireland will be like Venezuela.

Idbatterim

Spare me about the danger to multinationals etc. the marginal rate of tax here is doing huge economic damage. Anyone to discuss that or cutting it ?! No , let’s live in fear of corporations having to contribute a pittance more on top of the pittance they contribute

I don’t know and nobody here knows , how much more the could be tapped for. But it is morally corrupt to tax labour at fifty percent over an pittance and have insanely valuable companies contribute a pittance of their profits. It may not be a pittance in euro terms , , due to the figures involved, but it is a pittance in the greater scheme of things to them ...

As for the banks. lol! Anyone worried about boi or aib leaving ? Go to town on them ... I don’t care that their investors won’t be able to make a killing , which is obviously the governments comcern. Jack up property through the roof again and offload Nama stock and back stocks. Creates a bit of a moral and social problem. Hence where we are on the political front

ChikiChiki

Ireland won't be anywhere near like Venezuela. Absolute hyperbole.

Civil servants are running the show and that's the way it will stay. Not much will change

Idbatterim

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Ireland won't be anywhere near like Venezuela. Absolute hyperbole.

Civil servants are running the show and that's the way it will stay. Not much will change

Europe vets our budgets. We now seem to have a competent bank regulator and sf need multiple parties to prop them up. The scaremongering is comedy

GreeBo

Idbatterim wrote: »

Spare me about the danger to multinationals etc. the marginal rate of tax here is doing huge economic damage. Anyone to discuss that or cutting it ?! No , let’s live in fear of corporations having to contribute a pittance more on top of the pittance they contribute

No one is worried about the multinationals, they are worried about the prior employed by them, yunno the very ones that SF are planning to user to pay for their manifesto?

You level of understanding of basic economics is astounding.
In fact only your determination to expose your level of ignorance is more astounding.

Idbatterim

Idbatterim wrote: »

Spare me about the danger to multinationals etc. the marginal rate of tax here is doing huge economic damage. Anyone to discuss that or cutting it ?! No , let’s live in fear of corporations having to contribute a pittance more on top of the pittance they contribute

I don’t know and nobody here knows , how much more the could be tapped for. But it is morally corrupt to tax labour at fifty percent over an pittance and have insanely valuable companies contribute a pittance of their profits. It may not be a pittance in euro terms , , due to the figures involved, but it is a pittance in the greater scheme of things to them ...

As for the banks. lol! Anyone worried about boi or aib leaving ? Go to town on them ... I don’t care that their investors won’t be able to make a killing , which is obviously the governments comcern. Jack up property through the roof again and offload Nama stock and back stocks. Creates a bit of a moral and social problem. Hence where we are on the political front

And once again, it's a rant/deflection rather than actually explaining with some detail as to why the corps wouldn't leave for greener pastures, and how the economy would be able to bounce along without their revenue...

Could we get some posters who support the leftist angle or SF who would explain to us how their policies wouldn't drive away foreign investment, and if it actually did, how would SF/leftists resolve the gap in revenue?

fly_agaric

So much weeping, rending of garments and gnashing of teeth in the Boards Current Affairs forum. :pac: The election outcome has been good for that anyway!
4 or 5 threadloads of the stuff now.

Ultimanemo

machaseh wrote: »

Ireland under a leftist government:
- The public health care system will greatly improve.

I was talking to Doctors in the last few days, most of them said: If SF is going to tax us we will look for jobs abroad, I can't see the health system improving while doctors are leaving, unless they bring doctors from China and Cuba.

.

machaseh wrote: »

Ireland under a leftist government:
- Hopefully more moves towards cannabis legalization and regulation.

This one will happen.

I see sheep

fly_agaric wrote: »

So much weeping, rending of garments and gnashing of teeth in the Boards Current Affairs forum. :pac: The election outcome has been good for that anyway!
4 or 5 threadloads of the stuff now.

A lot of right wing snowflakes here.

fly_agaric

I see sheep wrote: »

A lot of right wing snowflakes here.

Surprised at the amount of "we're all doomed"/"the sky is falling" rhetoric too.

Scientists warn that human activity is damaging the environment & this might constitute a significant threat to civilisation - Current Affairs/IMHO: well that's just scaremongering nonsense.

SF and assorted lefties/greens have a fairly good election - Ireland will be a failed state + future is rearing sheep on collective farms and basket weaving!

Yellow_Fern

I see sheep wrote: »

A lot of right wing snowflakes here.

There is nothing right wing about evidence based policy.

all about the mane

rossie1977 wrote: »

Can't be any worse than the mess FF left us in back in 2011

High bar you are setting there

fly_agaric

fly_agaric wrote: »

Surprised at the amount of "we're all doomed"/"the sky is falling" rhetoric too.

I'm more surprised that any suggestion of genuine discussion about what SF would achieve while in power is met with such claims of doomsayer rhetoric. Everything that isn't completely positive is dismissed rather than discussed, just as anyone who wants to discuss the possible downsides must be of the right or a snowflake.

Morgans

Deleted User wrote: »

Why? No, seriously. That last decade has been discussed to bits already. It's been dissected beyond belief here on boards and on other mediums. We know of the corruption, and negligence. I would have happily lined them all up against a wall and shot them for treason.

However, we're dealing with the present/future now. And we're discussing SF because of their presence. If Labor was a realistic party for the left, we'd be talking about them too, but they're not. SF are a socialist based party, and their policies/statements reflect a strong leftist attitude.

And it is their economic perspective that concerns most of us (along with their links to paramilitary groups). They follow the leftist trend of expecting benefits/increased expenditure with little awareness of how to pay for it, apart from taxing the wealthy or the corporations.

So yes, I would like to see some arguments for the taxing of the corporations that realistically consider that they could leave, and what that would do to the economy. That there are other nations both in the EU and outside, that are attractive bases for multinationals. Simply dismissing these concerns with "it'll be grand" isn't enough for me... because the Irish economy isn't self-sufficient. Or the effect on the economy should professionals in the upper income brackets leave because of increased taxation. Which is a very real possibility, since their skills/experience are in demand in other countries. What would happen to the economy, and what would SF do to combat such changes? or would they just leave it to the next government to resolve?

It's something I've found rather disturbing on these threads about SF or the election. Any criticism of SF is met with some deflection. Nobody seems willing to explain their policies, expectations, or what will happen when they're in power. More importantly, nobody is willing to discuss the state of the economy after their period in power. Instead, it's constantly pushed to complaints about FF/FG or some other deflection to get the attention away from discussing these topics.

Lastly, what do you mean by someone like me?

Someone like you is someone who does not seem to be partisan and kicking out for the sake of it. I still reject the idea that the higher earners would leave, its the threat that is always used - for bankers to recover their status (500K isnt enough for heads of banks) and for the rich to retain theirs. This resugence in left leaning politics is the kick back against that trickle down neoliberalism. As I said, as long as there is a white water rafting facility in place when they go. It is strange how the argument never seen to be persuasive enough to change payment for junior doctors/nurses or teachers who leave to work in Dubai.

There is a middle ground between taxing multinationals to the hilt and kowtowing to the multinationals while services/society suffer. A fair treatment is what is required - and like all people existing in positions of privilege - any approach made towards a fair treatment is treated like a threat. Those doomongering about the exodus seem to have a very limited perspective of how headquartering in Ireland benefits the organisation.

I personally do not think that the benefits of having strong multinational/tech/pharma sector will be missed by SF/Pearse Doherty, but it doesnt mean that we do not develop an economy strong enough to survive in their absence.

fly_agaric

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm more surprised that any suggestion of genuine discussion about what SF would achieve while in power is met with such claims of doomsayer rhetoric. Everything that isn't completely positive is dismissed rather than discussed, just as anyone who wants to discuss the possible downsides must be of the right or a snowflake.

It's hard not to mock a little, there are endless threads and posts in the forum about what a disaster this election result is. How could the voters have done this (the people have spoken, the bastards etc etc).

It's mostly driven by anger and grief IMO rather than desire for discussion.
This thread's opening post mentions "Ireland under a left wing government" (as opposed to just SF).

OP and many posters set out that the theoretical "left wing government" (something which Ireland has never had) will run the country into the ground (vs the good stewardship of Fianna Fail and Fine Gael).

I'm not an SF voter and would be very uncomfortable if they'd won a majority but thankfuly that hasn't happened. Would prefer someone/something else benefits from a drift away from FF/FG. I don't think a "left wing government" (which is looking unlikely at this stage) will destroy the country, even one of which SF were a part.

Yurt2

fly_agaric wrote: »

I don't think a "left wing government" (which is looking unlikely at this stage) will destroy the country, even one of which SF were a part.

It really is Chicken Little stuff isn't it?

GreeBo

fly_agaric wrote: »

It's hard not to mock a little, there are endless threads and posts in the forum about what a disaster this election result is. How could the voters have done this (the people have spoken, the bastards etc etc).

It's mostly driven by anger and grief IMO rather than desire for discussion.
This thread's opening post mentions "Ireland under a left wing government" (as opposed to just SF).

OP and many posters set out that the theoretical "left wing government" (something which Ireland has never had) will run the country into the ground (vs the good stewardship of Fianna Fail and Fine Gael).

I'm not an SF voter and would be very uncomfortable if they'd won a majority but thankfuly that hasn't happened. Would prefer someone/something else benefits from a drift away from FF/FG. I don't think a "left wing government" (which is looking unlikely at this stage) will destroy the country, even one of which SF were a part.

Can you share some examples of successful left wing governments?

Also, can you explain how the SF manifesto will not ruin the country? (In fact, can you even just explain how they will pay for it?)

Of course not, because
*every*
*single*
*time*
someone asks this very question it turns into whataboutery.

Yurt2

Ah, how lovely. Greebs is along to tell us all how everyone to the left of Pinochet is quite literally Pol Pot.

Greebs, we missed you since you're visit to the funny farm. Has the food got any better since your last visit?

Plumbthedepths

GreeBo wrote: »

Can you share some examples of successful left wing governments?

Also, can you explain how the SF manifesto will not ruin the country? (In fact, can you even just explain how they will pay for it?)

Of course not, because
*every*
*single*
*time*
someone asks this very question it turns into whataboutery.

I'll leave this here in answer to the first part of your questions.


https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/10/portugal-election-progressives-left-winning/599518/

machaseh

GreeBo wrote: »

Can you share some examples of successful left wing governments?

Also, can you explain how the SF manifesto will not ruin the country? (In fact, can you even just explain how they will pay for it?)

Of course not, because
*every*
*single*
*time*
someone asks this very question it turns into whataboutery.

ever been to scandinavia?