CH or LIM bull

john mayo 10

Hi all. Have decided not to AI cows this year and run a bull with them. I'm trying to decide which breed of bull to use. Either CH or LIM. Have mainly Lim, Sim and Saler cows. I work about 20 mins from the farm but I work 12 shifts during the week. Days and nights rotating. We usually gave the cows an AI ch bull and buy in replacements springers. Dads at home but not getting any younger. Just trying to decide which breed to use. Ease of calving, etc. Usually sell all calves as weanling in October. Any suggestions would be great

tanko

A neighbour of mine who changed from a Lim to a CH bull told me that he's getting more for his weanlings but that he has less of them to sell every October off the same number of cows. I thought this summed it up well.
A CH weanling will make at least €100 more than a Lim of the same quality.
On average Lim Bulls are easier calved than CH Bulls but there's huge variations in both breeds. Lim calves are usually livelier and quicker to get up and suck by themselves. CH's can be dopey and lazier.
The big advantage of using Ai is that you can match a bull to each cow. With a bull this isn't possible. I'd err on the side of caution anyway.

blue5000

If you're working go for a lim. You can always ai a few to char before you let the bull out, with a bit of luck the char and the lim calves would all arrive the 1 week. Maybe take that week off as holidays.

DukeCaboom

Ch all day. You just have to know where to buy the right one.

Albert Johnson

john mayo 10 wrote: »

Hi all. Have decided not to AI cows this year and run a bull with them. I'm trying to decide which breed of bull to use. Either CH or LIM. Have mainly Lim, Sim and Saler cows. I work about 20 mins from the farm but I work 12 shifts during the week. Days and nights rotating. We usually gave the cows an AI ch bull and buy in replacements springers. Dads at home but not getting any younger. Just trying to decide which breed to use. Ease of calving, etc. Usually sell all calves as weanling in October. Any suggestions would be great

As with everything there's no hard and fast rule but I'd definitely be leaning more towards a LM bull in that scenario. Yes you might lose out on sale price but ease of calving along with increased calf vigour should help offset this loss by leading to reduce mortality and labour around calving time.

That's not to say that there aren't easy calved CH bulls and indeed some hard calved LM bulls but by and large a LM calf is easier calved and more lively than a similar CH calf. I've found that having all bright coloured cow's as opposed to black or grey results in red or orange calves off a LM bull which sell better than there black or mousey coloured comrade's.

Seeing as you have regular off farm commitments and an ageing father I'd believe that reducing the labour input would be of huge importance. Pulling big calves, sections and bottling weak calves for a few days doesn't tie in well with a day job. Yes you'll sometimes have this misfortune with all breeds and management does play a part but I'd hazard that a LM over a CH bull is a safer bet in your position.

john mayo 10

john mayo 10 wrote: »

Hi all. Have decided not to AI cows this year and run a bull with them. I'm trying to decide which breed of bull to use. Either CH or LIM. Have mainly Lim, Sim and Saler cows. I work about 20 mins from the farm but I work 12 shifts during the week. Days and nights rotating. We usually gave the cows an AI ch bull and buy in replacements springers. Dads at home but not getting any younger. Just trying to decide which breed to use. Ease of calving, etc. Usually sell all calves as weanling in October. Any suggestions would be great

Limosin all the way.

Better drinkers, more vigorous and easier calving

Lady Haywire

When ye were calving the AI ch bull, how did ye find the calves? And what CD did you go to? It's very hard to say without seeing the cows frames!
I'd go CH personally, you've cows that would breed lovely coloured calves which would be getting a grand drop of milk.
But I'd also be very liberal with pre calving minerals & iodine in the water/behind shoulders. Have found this to be a leading issue with our own dopey & weak calves but the last few years seems to be solved.

Dunedin

Given the ops circumstances it’s Limo all the way.

Gods Gift

Lims can be feckers for goin over time. Watch that.

Hard Knocks

Gods Gift wrote: »

Lims can be feckers for goin over time. Watch that.

Agree can be as much as a week longer than the Charolais

Who2

I use both limo and ch bulls here. I’m working full time too, there’s no question the ch will come into better money but the limo is far easier managed, I rarely have a dopey limo but regularly dopey ch. if you’ve cows that aren’t breeding orange calves with ch then definitely go limo.

john mayo 10

Lady Haywire wrote: »

When ye were calving the AI ch bull, how did ye find the calves? And what CD did you go to? It's very hard to say without seeing the cows frames!
I'd go CH personally, you've cows that would breed lovely coloured calves which would be getting a grand drop of milk.
But I'd also be very liberal with pre calving minerals & iodine in the water/behind shoulders. Have found this to be a leading issue with our own dopey & weak calves but the last few years seems to be solved.

Have found that CH calves are sleepy/dopey and slow to suck. Have a few heifers to bull aswell and might be as handy to just run a LM with them all.

Hard Knocks

Hard Knocks wrote: »

Agree can be as much as a week longer than the Charolais

Limos go around 10 days over maybe more. But are a lot easier in terms of calving and at foot

john mayo 10

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Limos go around 10 days over maybe more. But are a lot easier in terms of calving and at foot

Jesus lads I've had ch calves born 10 to 12 days late

john mayo 10

john mayo 10 wrote: »

Jesus lads I've had ch calves born 10 to 12 days late

Had Ch bulls and rams.

Ch lambs are the opposite of calves.

Ch calves had more problems with scour when we had them also

Hard Knocks

john mayo 10 wrote: »

Jesus lads I've had ch calves born 10 to 12 days late

As in 9 months + 10 days?
I’ve found CH 283-292 days
LM 290-300 days

Bass Reeves

A few years ago a lad I worked with was going.buying a bull, he was getting advice about a Ch or BB. I advised him Lim and gave him.most of the reasons stated here, usually easier calving, more vigorous calves etc.he had mainly SIM cows . His brother was.onto him to go with CH. Anyway he understood the points I was making and bought a LM bull. Now he is lucky with the cows he has virtually all red calves. Both he and his brother watch each others cows. After two years his brother changed to an LM. Both buy in there heifer replacements now as they do not want wild cows and because of the length of time the BL stays in the herd

If it was me OP and if your land was fairly good quality I get rid of the cows

john mayo 10

Hard Knocks wrote: »

As in 9 months + 10 days?
I’ve found CH 283-292 days
LM 290-300 days

Ya 40 weeks plus 10 days especially if it's a bull calf

john mayo 10

Bass Reeves wrote: »

A few years ago a lad I worked with was going.buying a bull, he was getting advice about a Ch or BB. I advised him Lim and gave him.most of the reasons stated here, usually easier calving, more vigorous calves etc.he had mainly SIM cows . His brother was.onto him to go with CH. Anyway he understood the points I was making and bought a LM bull. Now he is lucky with the cows he has virtually all red calves. Both he and his brother watch each others cows. After two years his brother changed to an LM. Both buy in there heifer replacements now as they do not want wild cows and because of the length of time the BL stays in the herd

If it was me OP and if your land was fairly good quality I get rid of the cows

Why in gods name would you suggest that I get rid of the cows

john mayo 10

john mayo 10 wrote: »

Why in gods name would you suggest that I get rid of the cows

For an easier life.

TooOldBoots

Pros and cons for each
Limousine
Easier to calf
More Vigorous calf on the ground
Cow is easier to get back in calf
Heifers can be excellent replacements with plenty milk

Cons
A high number of Bulls can breed very wild animals
Not all are easy calving
100 euro less than the Charli


Charolais
Great quality calves
Cross well with most cows
Easy to finish fatten
Worth more

Cons
Hard to very hard calving
Calves can be very soft
Poor cross from cows with holstein breeding :- mouse colored worth less
Sourcing an easy calving bull is a problem, many of the Bulls are hard calvers
Heifers are too beefy for replacements and have little or no milk for the calf

john mayo 10

Thanks for all the replies. Had the option of a HWN bull out of a CF52 cow. Great breeding alright. But with a few replacement heifer to bull and all our land in one block it would be torture keeping the bull away from them. Was chatting to a guy that rents bulls. Might suit me better as dad doesn't want a bull around all year. It's been hard enough to convince him to change from AI. Reason we are changing is too many repeats, time spent bringing them in, cows calving too late etc

patsy_mccabe

What ICBF say;

Gestation, average for breed
Char = +2.73 days
Lim = +3.81 days
So only 1.1 days longer on average.

Calving, average for breed
Char = 6.89%
Lim = 4.69%
So only 2.2% more

From my own personal experience. If working off farm , go limousin. If at home fulltime go Charolais.

Bass Reeves

john mayo 10 wrote: »

Why in gods name would you suggest that I get rid of the cows

It is hard to see improved profitability from cows. Yes some political parties have promised to increase cow subsidiaries above 200 euro. At present subsidiaries amount to about 180/ cow but with present beef prices will stagnate or drop further. You now have to balance calf value with work/life balance. On goodish land a store to beef or calf to beef system outperforms Suckler cows if well run. Mind you if a Suckler cow operation not well run its a disastrous as well.

With work a store to beef operation is the easiest run. Cattle can be ran in two bunches during the summer, cattle do not need to be checked every day, hardest part is meal feeding 6-8 weeks pre slaughter. Yes buying and marketing takes skill and timing but grids margin of 200/ head on a well run operation are achievable.

Bass Reeves

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It is hard to see improved profitability from cows. Yes some political parties have promised to increase cow subsidiaries above 200 euro. At present subsidiaries amount to about 180/ cow but with present beef prices will stagnate or drop further. You now have to balance calf value with work/life balance. On goodish land a store to beef or calf to beef system outperforms Suckler cows if well run. Mind you if a Suckler cow operation not well run its a disastrous as well.

With work a store to beef operation is the easiest run. Cattle can be ran in two bunches during the summer, cattle do not need to be checked every day, hardest part is meal feeding 6-8 weeks pre slaughter. Yes buying and marketing takes skill and timing but grids margin of 200/ head on a well run operation are achievable.

Break down hours worked on the farm against money earned.

That's when it gets scary comparing bought in bullocks/heifers to sucklers.

Herefords and Angus don't need much meal. You can buy feedlicks for the fields also.

Lady Haywire

john mayo 10 wrote: »

Have found that CH calves are sleepy/dopey and slow to suck. Have a few heifers to bull aswell and might be as handy to just run a LM with them all.

I always found that too, until I realised it twas me the issue was with- Minerals before calving!
Sure whatever you go with, make sure you're happy with. Don't buy in haste!

Robson99

john mayo 10 wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies. Had the option of a HWN bull out of a CF52 cow. Great breeding alright. But with a few replacement heifer to bull and all our land in one block it would be torture keeping the bull away from them. Was chatting to a guy that rents bulls. Might suit me better as dad doesn't want a bull around all year. It's been hard enough to convince him to change from AI. Reason we are changing is too many repeats, time spent bringing them in, cows calving too late etc

JM
We were faced with the same situation about 10 years ago.. always used AI....old fella didn't want a bull around the place ( didn't agree with him at first but seen the light )
Anyways with my work commitments..young family..and he not getting any younger we got out of cows....
Best decision we ever made. Now we buy in stores.. wouldn't go back to cows if you paid me.
IMO you need to be full time farming to make sucklers work...no sooner at work than something goes wrong with a calf or cow

Gods Gift

For the last 4 or 5 years I have been feeding about 10tons of rolled oats with minerals to everything for a month before they calve. Incalf heifers especially. Would be incalf to aa. Cows incalf to ch and lim. Extremely lively calves. And cows in great order for calving. But we grow our own oats and I rolled it myself so buying it in a merchants might not be viable.
But I would not be without the oats.

DukeCaboom

Gods Gift wrote: »

For the last 4 or 5 years I have been feeding about 10tons of rolled oats with minerals to everything for a month before they calve. Incalf heifers especially. Would be incalf to aa. Cows incalf to ch and lim. Extremely lively calves. And cows in great order for calving. But we grow our own oats and I rolled it myself so buying it in a merchants might not be viable.
But I would not be without the oats.

Do you mix any soya with it?

Parishlad

Gods Gift wrote: »

For the last 4 or 5 years I have been feeding about 10tons of rolled oats with minerals to everything for a month before they calve. Incalf heifers especially. Would be incalf to aa. Cows incalf to ch and lim. Extremely lively calves. And cows in great order for calving. But we grow our own oats and I rolled it myself so buying it in a merchants might not be viable.
But I would not be without the oats.

Feed oats and minerals to to everything here also. Much smaller scale mind you. Mix up a bucket of oats per pen with a couple of scoops of minerals and throw down in front of barrier and they go mad for it. Firmly believe also that it benefits the calves, who are very lively when born, the cows do well from it also and hardly ever any retained cleanings.

Hard Knocks

Allot of cows are lacking iodine
This results in dopey calves, held cleanings or slow to get back incalf
Whether full or part-time looking after the cow will benefit in the long run

Gods Gift

DukeCaboom wrote: »

Do you mix any soya with it?

No. Be afraid it would end up on the calf.

john mayo 10

Ok lads. I've decided I'm going to go for a limousine. Called to a guy today that rents out bulls. Really put off that idea. I wouldn't let anything he had into my yard. Going to buy one I instead. Chatting to a guy I know this evening. I buy springers off him most years. Sound fella. He has a limousine bull bout 12 month old. Reckons bout 430kgs but a month proper feeding would turn him inside out. Good breeding aswell. Out of a GWO bull. Might take a look next weekend

squinn2912

Enjoyed reading this thread. We’re lim mainly the last 15 years and I’ve been agitating for a change bk to Charolais. Not so sure now. I’m not just so sure there’s £100 in the difference either a good animal gets a good price. That talk is just conjecture not real research. A bit like gestation and CD until Patsy put up the actual average differences between the breeds.

tanko

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

What ICBF say;

Gestation, average for breed
Char = +2.73 days
Lim = +3.81 days
So only 1.1 days longer on average.

Calving, average for breed
Char = 6.89%
Lim = 4.69%
So only 2.2% more

From my own personal experience. If working off farm , go limousin. If at home fulltime go Charolais.

One evening a couple of years ago i went through the gestation lengths of about 500 calves that were born here over the previous 15 years, mostly CH and Lims.
This covered dozens of different bulls. On overage the gestation length for the CH's was 9 months and 11 days, for the Lims it was 9 months and 18 days, so a week longer for the Lims.

A bull with a calving difficulty of 6.89% is far harder calved than a bull with a calving difficulty of 4.69%. That's not how those figures work. It not 2% harder calved, it's far more than that.

patsy_mccabe

Well explain how those figures work so.

tanko

Explain how ICBF figures work?
People a lot smarter than me have tried.
I'd consider a bull with a calving difficulty of 7% a lot harder calved than a bull with a CD of 5%. Cows here will usually pop out the 5% bull but i'd need to have a jack handy for a 7% bull, that's just my experience anyway.

charolais0153

tanko wrote: »

Explain how ICBF figures work?
People a lot smarter than me have tried.
I'd consider a bull with a calving difficulty of 7% a lot harder calved than a bull with a CD of 5%. Cows here will usually pop out the 5% bull but i'd need to have a jack handy for a 7% bull, that's just my experience anyway.

Your feeding thrm too much, havent touched a cow this year, over a third had bulls over 15%cd

charolais0153

john mayo 10 wrote: »

Ok lads. I've decided I'm going to go for a limousine. Called to a guy today that rents out bulls. Really put off that idea. I wouldn't let anything he had into my yard. Going to buy one I instead. Chatting to a guy I know this evening. I buy springers off him most years. Sound fella. He has a limousine bull bout 12 month old. Reckons bout 430kgs but a month proper feeding would turn him inside out. Good breeding aswell. Out of a GWO bull. Might take a look next weekend

430 kgs at 12 months isnt the type of animal that is going to have class weanlings, a pedigree bull worth his salt should be that at 8 or 9 months

john mayo 10

charolais0153 wrote: »

430 kgs at 12 months isnt the type of animal that is going to have class weanlings, a pedigree bull worth his salt should be that at 8 or 9 months

That's what I'm thinking too

john mayo 10

john mayo 10 wrote: »

Ok lads. I've decided I'm going to go for a limousine. Called to a guy today that rents out bulls. Really put off that idea. I wouldn't let anything he had into my yard. Going to buy one I instead. Chatting to a guy I know this evening. I buy springers off him most years. Sound fella. He has a limousine bull bout 12 month old. Reckons bout 430kgs but a month proper feeding would turn him inside out. Good breeding aswell. Out of a GWO bull. Might take a look next weekend

If you have big cows a 1 year old limo will be too small.

A small bull should be able for heifers

squinn2912

charolais0153 wrote: »

430 kgs at 12 months isnt the type of animal that is going to have class weanlings, a pedigree bull worth his salt should be that at 8 or 9 months

I’d agree with this and I wouldn’t like buying a bull that needs to be fed properly to turn him inside out. That’s ok for dry cattle something you’re selling on but this is a big investment.
In my lifetime we’ve had 3 Charolais bulls and 3 lim. The first old ch bull left the first half dozen cows not fit to get up for a number of days other than that the other 5 are very similar for cd with the ch slightly harder - we use the lim boys on cows and heifers but wouldn’t do that with the ch. I suppose that’s an added benefit of our lims. I think they’re plenty big enough for the cows too- they tend to have bigger born calves with the same bull anyway
You could get a bull with a couple of seasons done and see calves on the ground. That would be cheaper at buyin and not as long term

Lady Haywire

john mayo 10 wrote: »

That's what I'm thinking too

Was just thinking he's a bit light. I've an 11 month lim bull here off Loyal and he's 480kgs i reckon. Prob sell him at 13 months if you're still looking

patsy_mccabe

A lot of weight gain with bulls is down to feeding. No different to weanlings coming off cows with more milk.

Lady Haywire

Lady Haywire wrote: »

Was just thinking he's a bit light. I've an 11 month lim bull here off Loyal and he's 480kgs i reckon. Prob sell him at 13 months if you're still looking

Any pics

Lady Haywire

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

A lot of weight gain with bulls is down to feeding. No different to weanlings coming off cows with more milk.

True, this lad was on the outfarm all summer so only been fed since he's in the shed. Dam would be milky enough though.

I've no recent pics but I'll wait for the rain to stop before I go get some!!

Castlekeeper

If your cows have reasonable size, which they should off those breeds, would a Parthenais be worth considering? Easier calved them the Ch, shorter gestation than the Lm, good temperament and excellent confirmation.
Not a suckler man myself but my neighbour has one. He's a man for the high end weanling market and he's delighted with him.
BTW this is a question in general, not a recommendation as I don't have the personal experience to do so.

Also I'd be slow to use a young bull or a highly fed one, a rule of thumb I've heard is 1 cow for every month of age up to 30.

Lady Haywire

Deleted User wrote: »

Any pics

He's not the best in the world, but not the worst either. He was a bit iffy temperament wise until I started roping him, much more settled now.

Who2

Today was a fair deciding factor for me on the bulls I use. I had an sfl red blue calve last year to a ch bull and broke a jack and had to put down the calf, same cow calved down last night to the limo, on her own with a fairly good calf. I’d a bressie bred sh cow calve this morning to ch bull, savage calf but dead within two hours and a savage pull on the jack. Same cow spat out lim last year. We don’t get paid enough for this hassle.

squinn2912

Castlekeeper wrote: »

If your cows have reasonable size, which they should off those breeds, would a Parthenais be worth considering? Easier calved them the Ch, shorter gestation than the Lm, good temperament and excellent confirmation.
Not a suckler man myself but my neighbour has one. He's a man for the high end weanling market and he's delighted with him.
BTW this is a question in general, not a recommendation as I don't have the personal experience to do so.

Also I'd be slow to use a young bull or a highly fed one, a rule of thumb I've heard is 1 cow for every month of age up to 30.

I’d be interested to see reactions to this question. I don’t think pt are quiet at all any we’ve had are very highly strung and giddy but def not dangerous. Also find them to have limited stickability as cows but to be fair my evidence is on a small number. Whatever about a few ai I wouldn’t be chancing a bull

Castlekeeper

Castlekeeper wrote: »

If your cows have reasonable size, which they should off those breeds, would a Parthenais be worth considering? Easier calved them the Ch, shorter gestation than the Lm, good temperament and excellent confirmation.
Not a suckler man myself but my neighbour has one. He's a man for the high end weanling market and he's delighted with him.
BTW this is a question in general, not a recommendation as I don't have the personal experience to do so.

Also I'd be slow to use a young bull or a highly fed one, a rule of thumb I've heard is 1 cow for every month of age up to 30.

What about an aubrac? Supposed to be easy calving