“Your father works for my father”

v638sg7k1a92bx

Kevski wrote: »

No, sorry. It’s a private, fee paying, podcast.

Omg it gets worse.

Dave_The_Sheep

Has anyone figured out the relationship between the election results last week and the popularity and potential success/failure of Irish rugby in the future?

I'm pretty stumped. Some Venn diagrams and maybe a flowchart or two with different coloured arrows would help me immensely.

Yeah_Right

Will Thundering Principal wrote: »

So can someone tell me all these places outside of D2, D4 that the IRFU are developing the sport.

If I have kids who are not in a private fee paying school, where do I send them to play rugby?

I'm not from Ireland so please excuse my ignorance of Irish geography. Are all 8 of the schools that made the Leinster SC quarter finals based in D2 and D4? I know Michaels is but I didn't realise the other 7 were as well.

I did have to laugh at the article when he mentioned hoodies. Hoodies!!! Thugs!! Criminals!! Made me think of Hot Fuzz. Its not like its cold or wet in D4 in February.

The Lost Sheep

paddylonglegs wrote: »

Absolutely agree, it’s business 101. Price a ticket at what people are willing to/capable of paying. You just won’t get a family coming up from Thomond park for the day.

A quick search of similar in demand sporting events will tell you that

care to show what you see as similar sporting events and compare prices.
You do see families come up for day at that price. I work in stadium matchdays and ses them every game.

sydthebeat wrote: »

Par for the course for a lot of these guys.

It stems from jealously from gaa and soccer zealots at the growing popularity of rugby here, the excellent organisation of the sport across the board, and the revenue generation opportunities.

Anyone involved in the sport at grassroots level knows the days of it being a "privileged" sport ended in the 80s

at clubs yes that ended in most areas long time ago but issue still stands for many teens in Dublin if you want to take up the sport it's quite difficult as many clubs in he city dont play u14-18 competitions. Especially clubs in "non traditional areas"

smelly sock wrote: »

In Ireland, especially Leinter the game is 100% elitist. In order to represemt your province or country its nearly a prequisite to habe attended a fee paying private school.

The goys.

it isnt at all elitist. In parts of leinster the game is dominated by those who attend a fee paying school and with the way the top sides within those schools play and train of course pros will come in the main from past pupils of these schools. But as youths rugby improves over time through coach development and more kids playing the game from earlier age etc it will change and more will progress to higher level

molloyjh wrote: »

That's becoming less and less true with time. Guys like SOB and Furlong for example werent from a private school. Others in the Leinster set up at the moment, like Dooely, Frawley, Conor O'Brien or Adam Byrne, similarly arent from a private school background.

The gap in standards of coaching and s&c in the clubs vs private schools has narrowed and we are seeing that with more and more club guys in the pro game. It still offers a far more realistic, sustainable and successful route to pro sport than any other team sport in the country.

But theres more to the game than the pro game. It's still a hugely enjoyable and rewarding game even at the lower levels. And its thriving throughout the country there.

gaps have closed and best players are also getting coaching from leinster coaches through regional squads ie Shane horgan cup in leinster. Quite a few so called schools players moved or were incentivised to move to rugby schools for senior cycle and that is regularly forgotten in coverage

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

Private school attendance does not enhance your chances of becoming a professional footballer, it does enhance your chances of becoming a professional rugby player. According to points put forward in this thread.

because soccer is primarily focused on clubs for teenagers. Even if school team is strong and successful. Rugby it's all about the school team. It enhances your chances of being pro in leinster and cork. Beyond that it isnt the case

Tom Mann Centuria wrote: »

I accept your point, and I don't doubt that in a few years if things continue as they are, spreading the base of the game, it will be a much more level playing field. It's clearly not what it used to be, but the game still has an image problem, and at present it's still very easy to see why people think it's a game for the haves and not the have nots (at the elite level).

the game only has an image problem if you focus on these areas and dont look at what the sport has done to expand numbers playing. At the top level it will take considerable time for more to progress to peo level from certain areas. In Munster for example waterpark have had one of the best club underage set ups in the country but there wasnt a pro player to come through the club between Murray kinsella and Jack o Donoghue. Since Jack came through there has also been eoin o connor to emerge as well as Tom ahearn and Stephen McMahon to come from county Waterford. It takes long time but it is happening

Will Thundering Principal wrote: »

So can someone tell me all these places outside of D2, D4 that the IRFU are developing the sport.

If I have kids who are not in a private fee paying school, where do I send them to play rugby?

clubs all over the country have mini and then youths rugby sections fielding in leagues and cups. Look on the various provincial websites and you will see all the clubs and contact details for underage coaches for teams to play on.

sydthebeat wrote: »

thats incredibly naive Tom.

if you want to maximse your chances of getting the best leaving cert results, you go to fee paying schools

if you want to be among the elites of chefs in the country, you go work under the best michelin starred chefs....

there are less than 200 full time professional rugby players in this country.
in order to be among them, you need to make decisions as to the path you take.

Do you stay with your club where you get perhaps max 2 hours training a week, and a game, with a volunteer coach in a volunteer lead club... or do you get 7-8 hours a week, and a game, in a private school under a dedicated director or rugby, paid senior coaches, strength and conditioning coaches in the best facilities?

even going to these schools does not guarantee you any kind of a route towards professionalism.

the reality is a lot of promising players go to fee paying schools for the senior cycle (2 final years),... so even though they are then classed as "private school" players their development was actually through the club system.

there is also a route to the leinster sub academy through the club system, which doesn't require any private school attendance. obviously the numbers getting through this route isnt anywhere as high as the fee paying route, but thats is due to the reasons ive already said. But still, if you are good enough, youre good enough. Tadhg Furlong came in that route. Sean O brien came in that route.most recently i think Ciaran Frawley has come through that route.

yes if good enough you will be seen but the problem with fee paying schools being the primary focus of developing future pros is that it immediately cuts out a huge proportion of people as they will never be able to afford fees to attend these schools.

OP you should post this in After Hours instead. You'll get a lot more agreement and it'll be good craic

droidman123

It wasnt that long ago since so called irish players were playing for a team called "the british lions"

droidman123

It wasnt that long ago since so called irish players were playing for a team called "the british lions"

Dave_The_Sheep

And here I thought the fun had petered out.

irishbucsfan

droidman123 wrote: »

It wasnt that long ago since so called irish players were playing for a team called "the british lions"

But it’s not currently how things are

v638sg7k1a92bx

irishbucsfan wrote: »

But it’s not currently how things are

The past doesn’t simply disappear upon request.

I find it incredulous that people still refuse to accept that there is any snob factor associated with rugby despite the overwhelming facts that prove otherwise.

droidman123

irishbucsfan wrote: »

But it’s not currently how things are

But why did they do it in the first place?

salmocab

Will Thundering Principal wrote: »

The past doesn’t simply disappear upon request.

I find it incredulous that people still refuse to accept that there is any snob factor associated with rugby despite the overwhelming facts that prove otherwise.

Your mixing up snob factor with what you perceive to be snob factor. You have notions about something you don’t like for whatever your reasons but you won’t or don’t want to know about the reality. You wanted to know where you could send your kid to play rugby if not a fee paying school people pointed out that clubs all over the country have kids playing there but you then just moved on without acknowledging the answer you got as it didn’t fit your narrative.

thomond2006

Will Thundering Principal wrote: »

The past doesn’t simply disappear upon request.

I find it incredulous that people still refuse to accept that there is any snob factor associated with rugby despite the overwhelming facts that prove otherwise.

There's no snobbishness towards plebs.

irishbucsfan

droidman123 wrote: »

But why did they do it in the first place?

Because they’ve been touring since 1888 and these things can be hard to change. It doesn’t mean the players were delighted with the idea and it’s particularly mad to suggest that about current Irish rugby when it’s not even the case any more

irishbucsfan

Will Thundering Principal wrote: »

The past doesn’t simply disappear upon request.

I find it incredulous that people still refuse to accept that there is any snob factor associated with rugby despite the overwhelming facts that prove otherwise.

Of course there is.

There’s a difference between not being a fan of certain elements of the sport and being completely and utterly clueless to the point to think that it applies to everyone involved in the sport up and down the country

Neil3030

droidman123 wrote: »

But why did they do it in the first place?

Because the team has existed in one way or another since the 1800s. Only adopted the name "British Lions" officially in 1950, as this was the nickname used by journalists, and formally changed to "British and Irish Lions" in 2001.

prawnsambo

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Because they’ve been touring since 1888 and these things can be hard to change. It doesn’t mean the players were delighted with the idea and it’s particularly mad to suggest that about current Irish rugby when it’s not even the case any more

A bit like the Ryder Cup in golf. Took a long time for them to acknowledge Irish participation in it. Now of course it's a European team, but it was originally the British team even though there were regularly Irish team members.

saabsaab

Will Thundering Principal wrote: »

No sorry it’s rugby

See attached!


https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14660970.2016.1230344?forwardService=showFullText&tokenAccess=4BuV6M8aDSNWuYz3mHa7&tokenDomain=eprints&doi=10.1080%2F14660970.2016.1230344&doi=10.1080%2F14660970.2016.1230344&journalCode=fsas20

molloyjh

droidman123 wrote: »

It wasnt that long ago since so called irish players were playing for a team called "the british lions"

They are called the british and irish lions. Pitiful effort really. D-, must try harder.

Will Thundering Principal

Will Thundering Principal wrote: »

The past doesn’t simply disappear upon request.

I find it incredulous that people still refuse to accept that there is any snob factor associated with rugby despite the overwhelming facts that prove otherwise.

I won't deny that I definitely look down my nose at you

droidman123

molloyjh wrote: »

They are called the british and irish lions. Pitiful effort really. D-, must try harder.

Thats what they are called now,but no so long ago they were commonly known as the british lions

Neil3030

droidman123 wrote: »

Thats what they are called now,but no so long ago they were commonly known as the british lions

Who cares?

How many Irish Soccer players played for West Bromwich Albion over the years?

Hint: one was from Derry and really fond of the Wolfe Tones.

piplip87

In many places rugby is still seen as a toffee nose sport. I remember wanting to play at a young age but not been able to as the price to pay back then was extortionate. This was a deliberate act to keep the game to the higher class people around the area.

Now the game is more open around these parts, it will be 10-15 years before the benefits are seen on the national stage though.

The fact that the majority of the Irish team went to a handful of fee paying schools cannot be denied.

stephen_n

piplip87 wrote: »

In many places rugby is still seen as a toffee nose sport. I remember wanting to play at a young age but not been able to as the price to pay back then was extortionate. This was a deliberate act to keep the game to the higher class people around the area.

Now the game is more open around these parts, it will be 10-15 years before the benefits are seen on the national stage though.

The fact that the majority of the Irish team went to a handful of fee paying schools cannot be denied.

I’d be very interested to know where that is? I played rugby for 35 years. Didn’t go to a few paying school and the most my club fees have ever been was €200 a year. When I was first playing out of school the club fees were £75 a season. I wouldn’t imagine too many GAA or Soccer clubs being cheaper than that if they have facilities.

molloyjh

piplip87 wrote: »

In many places rugby is still seen as a toffee nose sport. I remember wanting to play at a young age but not been able to as the price to pay back then was extortionate. This was a deliberate act to keep the game to the higher class people around the area.

Now the game is more open around these parts, it will be 10-15 years before the benefits are seen on the national stage though.

The fact that the majority of the Irish team went to a handful of fee paying schools cannot be denied.

This has to be a total lie. It doesnt tally with my experience or the experience of anyone I know going back to the 60s and 70s. So yeah, I'm calling BS.

salmocab

Deliberate act to keep it for themselves I’ve heard it all now. Utter nonsense

piplip87

piplip87 wrote: »

In many places rugby is still seen as a toffee nose sport. I remember wanting to play at a young age but not been able to as the price to pay back then was extortionate. This was a deliberate act to keep the game to the higher class people around the area.

Now the game is more open around these parts, it will be 10-15 years before the benefits are seen on the national stage though.

The fact that the majority of the Irish team went to a handful of fee paying schools cannot be denied.

Definitely the case and I witnessed it first hand in my younger years. You were shut out if you weren’t of a certain status. It’s easing a bit now but it’s definitely as bad as it ever was in Leinster and Northern Ireland, the latter where you have to be a certain religion and allegiance even regardless of money (though wine you’ve two young British boys in Ulster, money and status wins too).

irishbucsfan

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Definitely the case and I witnessed it first hand in my younger years. You were shut out if you weren’t of a certain status. It’s easing a bit now but it’s definitely as bad as it ever was in Leinster and Northern Ireland, the latter where you have to be a certain religion and allegiance even regardless of money (though wine you’ve two young British boys in Ulster, money and status wins too).

The idea that this is true in Leinster is a flat out lie. I play for a rural club in Leinster and fees are just over 100 quid and there'd be very few people with money involved with the club, fundraising is done by the players themselves in the local area. All of our local rivals are the same bar one senior club who do a little better financially thanks to bigger numbers and better sponsorship.

You just made this up out of thin air

Squidgy Black

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Definitely the case and I witnessed it first hand in my younger years. You were shut out if you weren’t of a certain status. It’s easing a bit now but it’s definitely as bad as it ever was in Leinster and Northern Ireland, the latter where you have to be a certain religion and allegiance even regardless of money (though wine you’ve two young British boys in Ulster, money and status wins too).

This is 100% incorrect and completely made up. My fees for a club in North Dublin are less than we pay for the little ones GAA and Soccer memberships every year.

And the comment about lads up North is just ludicrous and shows exactly where you sit on the sport.

salmocab

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The idea that this is true in Leinster is a flat out lie. I play for a rural club in Leinster and fees are just over 100 quid and there'd be very few people with money involved with the club, fundraising is done by the players themselves in the local area. All of our local rivals are the same bar one senior club who do a little better financially thanks to bigger numbers and better sponsorship.

You just made this up out of thin air

I’m a tradesman didn’t go to private school played from the age of nine for 30 years mainly for a club in south Dublin and never found any issues, I’ve played with doctors, solicitors, bankers, builders and even a guy who worked in a chipper and never heard or felt any of this rubbish. People see what they want.

saabsaab

Squidgy Black wrote: »

This is 100% incorrect and completely made up. My fees for a club in North Dublin are less than we pay for the little ones GAA and Soccer memberships every year.

And the comment about lads up North is just ludicrous and shows exactly where you sit on the sport.

True in my younger days I found the Rugby clubs around the country very inclusive. They were friendly and I was made feel welcome as a stranger.

Squidgy Black

Squidgy Black wrote: »

This is 100% incorrect and completely made up. My fees for a club in North Dublin are less than we pay for the little ones GAA and Soccer memberships every year.

And the comment about lads up North is just ludicrous and shows exactly where you sit on the sport.

Would you ever go away out of that. Obviously there’s the very odd outlier in everything but rugby (and to a slightly lesser extent, soccer) are clearly loyalist games in NI. If you can’t see the hand in front of your face then it just shows exactly where you sit on the sport and are looking at it through rose tinted glasses.

Shefwedfan

For some reason it seems the success of the rugby team has caused a massive amount of upset for some of the other sports in Ireland

I don’t seem to remember the same happening when the soccer team was doing good. I didn’t see rugby fans posting with glee at every failure of the team

At the moment rugby has probably branched out to more areas of the country than ever before but instead of congratulating the irfu it seems people are transfixed on a couple of schools in Dublin.

If it was 20 years ago would the likes of Furlong, SOB etc and all those other players had the chances to play rugby? Not a chance

I think the major issue is the reach rugby, Smaller town now in Leinster now have a rugby club, all started in last 10 years.

Personally I don’t care if the sport is rugby, soccer, GAA, baseball, tennis etc as long as young people are out playing sports, not sitting at home or making a nuisance of themselves in the community

Anyone complaining about rugby or any sport really should grow up!!! Trying to bring an election into it is just as stupid. The election vote was a clear f**k you to FF/FG and the only alternative was SF, SF now have decided to make this out as some sort of revolution, they got 25% of the vote....not that impressive, get 50% and then we canntalk

v638sg7k1a92bx

salmocab wrote: »

Your mixing up snob factor with what you perceive to be snob factor. You have notions about something you don’t like for whatever your reasons but you won’t or don’t want to know about the reality. You wanted to know where you could send your kid to play rugby if not a fee paying school people pointed out that clubs all over the country have kids playing there but you then just moved on without acknowledging the answer you got as it didn’t fit your narrative.

Nonsense. Clubs all over the country? You make it sound like there is one on every corner. The reality is they are few and far between. How many are in Darndale, coolock, Walkinstown, Bluebell,

This attempt to try and completely ignore what is blatantly obvious is just an attempt to dig your heels in rather than acknowledge what is right in front of your face.

I’m willing to accept that the label “west Brit” is out dated but how can you accept that none of what other people are saying in that Rugby still has a certain class snobbery which still exists albeit to a lesser extent is true. Rather than an acknowledgement that it exists but you and others refuse to accept any merit in the accusations and try and make out as if it’s played on the same level as GAA.

Squidgy Black

Will Thundering Principal wrote: »

Nonsense. Clubs all over the country? You make it sound like there is one on every corner. The reality is they are few and far between. How many are in Darndale, coolock, Walkinstown, Bluebell,

This attempt to try and completely ignore what is blatantly obvious is just an attempt to dig your heels in rather than acknowledge what is right in front of your face.

I’m willing to accept that the label “west Brit” is out dated but how can you accept that none of what other people are saying in that Rugby still has a certain class snobbery which still exists albeit to a lesser extent is true. Rather than an acknowledgement that it exists but you and others refuse to accept any merit in the accusations and try and make out as if it’s played on the same level as GAA.

BFG Ravens and Clontarf both have players from Dublin 5, 9, 17, 11 etc playing for them at many age levels. I know because I'm one of them....

Add to that schools like St David's and Chanel starting rugby teams and playing in lower level schools leagues and friendlies.

Shefwedfan

Will Thundering Principal wrote: »

Nonsense. Clubs all over the country? You make it sound like there is one on every corner. The reality is they are few and far between. How many are in Darndale, coolock, Walkinstown, Bluebell,

This attempt to try and completely ignore what is blatantly obvious is just an attempt to dig your heels in rather than acknowledge what is right in front of your face.

I’m willing to accept that the label “west Brit” is out dated but how can you accept that none of what other people are saying in that Rugby still has a certain class snobbery which still exists albeit to a lesser extent is true. Rather than an acknowledgement that it exists but you and others refuse to accept any merit in the accusations and try and make out as if it’s played on the same level as GAA.

Ratoath, Ashbourne etc have all opened clubs around the Dublin county area. Not really D4 or fee school areas?

I’m sure plenty of other clubs in other areas

Everything doesn’t revolve around Dublin City

salmocab

Will Thundering Principal wrote: »

Nonsense. Clubs all over the country? You make it sound like there is one on every corner. The reality is they are few and far between. How many are in Darndale, coolock, Walkinstown, Bluebell,

This attempt to try and completely ignore what is blatantly obvious is just an attempt to dig your heels in rather than acknowledge what is right in front of your face.

I’m willing to accept that the label “west Brit” is out dated but how can you accept that none of what other people are saying in that Rugby still has a certain class snobbery which still exists albeit to a lesser extent is true. Rather than an acknowledgement that it exists but you and others refuse to accept any merit in the accusations and try and make out as if it’s played on the same level as GAA.

Your just perceiving the class snobbery thing though it doesn't actually exist. There are clubs in crumlin, Tallaght and clondalkin all quite close to walkinstown and bluebell. I grew up in greenhills and was well able to find a club to play for when I was 9. I had local friends who played and went to a comprehensive school that also had people who played rugby for clubs.

Dave_The_Sheep

Will Thundering Principal wrote: »

Nonsense. Clubs all over the country? You make it sound like there is one on every corner. The reality is they are few and far between. How many are in Darndale, coolock, Walkinstown, Bluebell,

This was already linked here by Mason Magnificent Nail: https://www.irishrugby.ie/playing-the-game/club/club-map/

But since you're back. Have you figured out what the relationship (that you claimed) between the recent election results and the popularity or potential lack of success of Irish rugby is?

Will Thundering Principal

Will Thundering Principal wrote: »

Nonsense. Clubs all over the country? You make it sound like there is one on every corner. The reality is they are few and far between. How many are in Darndale, coolock, Walkinstown, Bluebell,

This attempt to try and completely ignore what is blatantly obvious is just an attempt to dig your heels in rather than acknowledge what is right in front of your face.

I’m willing to accept that the label “west Brit” is out dated but how can you accept that none of what other people are saying in that Rugby still has a certain class snobbery which still exists albeit to a lesser extent is true. Rather than an acknowledgement that it exists but you and others refuse to accept any merit in the accusations and try and make out as if it’s played on the same level as GAA.

Ummm St Mary's is literally up the road from Walkinstown roundabout.

You've also got Guinness, Tallaght, and Clondalkin (with Mary's) literally surrounding the place

thebaz

heard the interview yesterday - Doyle seams easily offended - foul language happens at most rival sporting matches - soccer/GAA/boxing/UFC and Rugby - go to the Dublin derby today and you will here lads being lads, he seamed offended than this was getting into rugby and some of the past pupils might get a criminal record - The headlines paint a far worse picture for our easily offended society, when ther are far far worse things happening in our society.
But agree the media love kicking the supposed elitist rugby.

v638sg7k1a92bx

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ummm St Mary's is literally up the road from Walkinstown roundabout.

You've also got Guinness, Tallaght, and Clondalkin (with Mary's) literally surrounding the place

Mary’s up the road from Walkinstown roundabout? Guinness is a members only club and the rest is just gerrymandering.

Shefwedfan

Will Thundering Principal wrote: »

Mary’s up the road from Walkinstown roundabout? Guinness is a members only club and the rest is just gerrymandering.

You seem to ignore my post as you have an agenda.....the whole world doesn’t revolve around south, north or Dublin City....

v638sg7k1a92bx

thebaz wrote: »

heard the interview yesterday - Doyle seams easily offended - foul language happens at most rival sporting matches - soccer/GAA/boxing/UFC and Rugby - go to the Dublin derby today and you will here lads being lads, he seamed offended than this was getting into rugby and some of the past pupils might get a criminal record - The headlines paint a far worse picture for our easily offended society, when ther are far far worse things happening in our society.
But agree the media love kicking the supposed elitist rugby.

Have you got the link to the interview pls, would be interested to listen to it.

As for the media, the Irish Times fawns over Irish rugby.

Shefwedfan

Will Thundering Principal wrote: »

Have you got the link to the interview pls, would be interested to listen to it.

As for the media, the Irish Times fawns over Irish rugby.

The sun and star fawn over soccer....its called knowing your audience....

v638sg7k1a92bx

Shefwedfan wrote: »

You seem to ignore my post as you have an agenda.....the whole world doesn’t revolve around south, north or Dublin City....

Not the world but Ireland certainly does.

Joking aside, I missed your point not sure what you mean?

v638sg7k1a92bx

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The sun and star fawn over soccer....its called knowing your audience....

So we’re in agreement then?

Squidgy Black

Will Thundering Principal wrote: »

Mary’s up the road from Walkinstown roundabout? Guinness is a members only club and the rest is just gerrymandering.

Guinness hasn't been a members only club for a few decades now. Anyone can join and play, it's not affiliated with the company at all these days.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Guinness hasn't been a members only club for a few decades now. Anyone can join and play, it's not affiliated with the company at all these days.

Wrong. Anyone cannot just join.

thebaz

Will Thundering Principal wrote: »

Have you got the link to the interview pls, would be interested to listen to it.

As for the media, the Irish Times fawns over Irish rugby.

it was up on the newstalk website , under podcasts
https://www.newstalk.com/listen-back
Pat Kenny show for yesterday (a third way in) -

I would say many news journalists in the IT dont like rugby -
me I like most sports - soccer/rugby/boxing/UFC/GAA

swiwi_

He’s not a bad guy either. Pays his round, always has a witty joke or two, works hard enough. Prefers reading to sport though and likes county ‘n’ blues. But a solid fella altogether.