Man city (not) banned from Champions league for 2 years [Mod note see first post]

marklazarcovic

They have been found guilty of financial doping from 2012 onwards, should be stripped of any titles won in that time as effectively cheated to win them. Also tried to hide it and were not cooperating with uefa investigation.

Relegation to conference would suffice.

Harry Palmr

Dcully wrote: »

Thank God Liverpool were really and truly battering the plastics before this.

Indeed, that said this all relates to 2012-16 so the real issue here is the Champions League trophies that City will have stripped from thier records. Hang on.....

Mushy

marklazarcovic wrote: »

They have been found guilty of financial doping from 2012 onwards, should be stripped of any titles won in that time as effectively cheated to win them. Also tried to hide it and were not cooperating with uefa investigation.

Relegation to conference would suffice.

Ah now, only guilty for uefa competition so far. No point of stripping them of nothing

citytillidie

HMRC should have a look at the City books now as well throw them out like Rangers :pac:

citytillidie

lawred2 wrote: »

Had this happened before? To any other club?

A few

Agent Coulson

citytillidie wrote: »

HMRC should have a look at the City books now as well throw them out like Rangers :pac:

I wouldn't trust HMRC either

Rangers consider taking legal action after HMRC says £50m penalty was ‘too high’

Rangers are considering taking ­legal action against HM Revenue and Customs after it appeared to admit that it was wrong to have claimed £50 million in penalties from the club’s former operating company, which went into liquidation in 2012 and triggered one of the biggest club crises in Scottish football history.

The revised figure is understood to be around £20 million, a liability which – had it been agreed in the first place – would have made the Ibrox club more attractive to buyers of genuine substance. ​

In such circumstances, according to former Rangers chairman John McClelland, former owner Sir David Murray would not have been forced to sell the club to venture capitalist Craig Whyte, who triggered liquidation by failure to pay taxes

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2019/11/14/rangers-consider-taking-legal-actionafter-hmrcadmits50m-penalty/

Tippex

This could have bigger implications for City.
The took on a $500m investment and I would suspect that even though this would have been part od the due dilligence that massive amounts will have been hidden the same way it was with UEFA this could cause all sorts of trouble

Cantona's Collars

UEFA had to be strong over this as the result of letting City off with a slap on the rest would have given every club license to do the same as them regarding flouting FFP.
City had hired some of the top legal eagles to fight this but were bang to rights. Let's hope that the appeal is thrown out.

Sawduck

Should be sent into the championship for cheating

Benzino

Sawduck wrote: »

Should be sent into the championship for cheating

Have they broken PL rules? Genuine question, I'm not aware of any FFP rules in the PL.

~Rebel~

Benzino wrote: »

Have they broken PL rules? Genuine question, I'm not aware of any FFP rules in the PL.

"The Premier League has brought in its own form of financial regulation which is not as stringent as Uefa's FFP."

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/29361839
https://www.premierleague.com/news/102374

JPA

Is the evidence for this ban based on the leaked emails or have UEFA collected their own evidence?

FluffPiece

Benzino wrote: »

Have they broken PL rules? Genuine question, I'm not aware of any FFP rules in the PL.

This is something I came across tonight, I'll see if I can find the link. No idea if true.

The accounts presented to the PL must be truthful and the same as UEFA. So if they supplied dodgy accounts to UEFA, it would mean they either presented a different set of accounts or same dodgy accounts to PL.

ERG89

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

Pep Guardiola will consider his future as manager in the summer, Telegraph Sport understands, unless the club is able to overturn a verdict which condemns "serious breaches" in payments by executives."

If this is Guardiola's reaction its like a mobster's wife thinking all this time her husband was working an honest 9-5 job.

Agent Coulson

City Statement.

Manchester City is disappointed but not surprised by today’s announcement by the UEFA Adjudicatory Chamber. The Club has always anticipated the ultimate need to seek out an independent body and process to impartially consider the comprehensive body of irrefutable evidence in support of its position.
In December 2018, the UEFA Chief Investigator publicly previewed the outcome and sanction he intended to be delivered to Manchester City, before any investigation had even begun. The subsequent flawed and consistently leaked UEFA process he oversaw has meant that there was little doubt in the result that he would deliver. The Club has formally complained to the UEFA Disciplinary body, a complaint which was validated by a CAS ruling.

Simply put, this is a case initiated by UEFA, prosecuted by UEFA and judged by UEFA. With this prejudicial process now over, the Club will pursue an impartial judgment as quickly as possible and will therefore, in the first instance, commence proceedings with the Court of Arbitration for Sport at the earliest opportunity.

https://www.mancity.com/news/club-news/club-news/2020/february/manchester-city-club-statement

magma69

ASOT wrote: »

What way do you construct your tinfoil hat?

Yeah it's such a zany, unconscionable idea that FIFA would be willing to take a bribe that anyone suggesting the idea must be a nut. :rolleyes:

UrbanFret

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

Pep Guardiola will consider his future as manager in the summer, Telegraph Sport understands, unless the club is able to overturn a verdict which condemns "serious breaches" in payments by executives."

Ah The old "understands" chestnut which really means I've just made this **** up.:rolleyes:

Rayne Wooney

Surely this is the equivalent of getting caught speeding by campus police or something, what authority do UEFA have over a clubs financials in the real world and how have they managed to prove City are cheating

This will disappear on appeal surely, UEFA will probably owe City money by the end of this

Martin Tyler AgueroooOO

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Surely this is the equivalent of getting caught speeding by campus police or something, what authority do UEFA have over a clubs financials in the real world and how have they managed to prove City are cheating

This will disappear on appeal surely, UEFA will probably owe City money by the end of this

UEFA run the European competitions and clubs are there by licenses given UEFA so UEFA have the rights to run it as they see fit and if clubs aren't happy they don't have to enter those competitions and if they break the license agreements UEFA have the right to remove them from those competitions.

Masala

UEFA will give in....... the City machine is bigger than the operation in the UK!!!

The Sheik will tie their legal defense to shreds and get PWC or EY to produce alternative figures that will blow the UEFA bookkeepers out of the water

Storm in a teacup!,

~Rebel~

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Surely this is the equivalent of getting caught speeding by campus police or something, what authority do UEFA have over a clubs financials in the real world and how have they managed to prove City are cheating

This will disappear on appeal surely, UEFA will probably owe City money by the end of this

I mean, it probably is exactly like this - the campus authorities have no right to punish you with real world consequences like jail, but they can punish your university status by suspending/expelling you if you're a member there. If you're not a student of theirs, you're probably grand.

Likewise, it's UEFA's competition - if they have their own set of rules, and find that those rules have been broken, they're entitled to not allow you to enter their competition. And just with the university example, if you don't fancy entering their competition anyway, you're grand. But if you do, this hurts you.

sabat

I wouldn't bet against all kinds of under the counter perks and payments going to players and management at these "oil clubs" too- free 1st class on Etihad/hotel rooms, Rolexes as gifts from the sheikh, entourages/hangers-on/family members getting a taste etc.
The dream from a rival fan's perspective would be for an actual shadow salary system, offshore or otherwise, to exist and be exposed-that would leave no choice for the FA but to invoke the relegation to League 2 rule and consider stripping titles.

y0ssar1an22

Be interesting to see if any servers are lost and backups deleted by a young member of staff not knowing any better. It seems to happen in lots of high profile cases

y0ssar1an22

And the allegations are from 2012-2016. If this is upheld, and it's also a breach of fa rules, any trophies should be expunged from the history books. Not awarding the title to anyone, but no winner. Bit like tour de France and lance

Pauliedragon

Martin Tyler AgueroooOO wrote: »

UEFA run the European competitions and clubs are there by licenses given UEFA so UEFA have the rights to run it as they see fit and if clubs aren't happy they don't have to enter those competitions and if they break the license agreements UEFA have the right to remove them from those competitions.

Unless the CAS disagree which UEFA have signed up to and it can also go the supreme court in Switzerland. This isn't over by a long shot.

BorneTobyWilde

It taints their League Titles, they bought them. Lied about the books. At least Liverpool are running a tight ship, sell to buy.

Damien360

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

It taints their League Titles, they bought them. Lied about the books. At least Liverpool are running a tight ship, sell to buy.

Not at all. They won fair and square. Their squad is stunning and deep.

If there is any fairness in this, then PSG should be santioned. Even Real Madrid and Barca got questionable money via state aid. I'm sure if we keep looking there will be more and more.

A wage cap per team per year similar to US NFL will be the ultimate way of controlling runaway teams and leagues. The current rules are easy to circumvent. It will have to be UEFA/FIFA set. The biggest issue there is if either is anything like the FAI, it's a long way off.

Shanotheslayer

Damien360 wrote: »

Not at all. They won fair and square.

Except they didnt if they broke FFP?

wonski

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Except they didnt if they broke FFP?

But they didn't

PL has different rules.

So does UEFA.

Different leagues have different terms.

~Rebel~

wonski wrote: »

But they didn't

PL has different rules.

So does UEFA.

Different leagues have different terms.

The PL does have other rules, and have been investigating City since March for potential breach of those rules. Will hear their findings before too long... UEFA took a year to finish their own investigation, so hopefully the PL will be similar, and we find out next month.

wadacrack

If City's ban is withheld, Id be very surprised if 5th place in the Premier League dosent lead to a CL place. Extra money and greater PR for the competition

ozzy jr

Masala wrote: »

UEFA will give in....... the City machine is bigger than the operation in the UK!!!

The Sheik will tie their legal defense to shreds and get PWC or EY to produce alternative figures that will blow the UEFA bookkeepers out of the water

Storm in a teacup!,

These alternative figures you talk about, what exactly do you mean?

City have already filed their accounts with all the necessary authorities, which have been found to be fraudulent. Are you suggesting that the sheik produces new accounts and says, "hang on everybody, here's the real accounts and as you can clearly see, they're all above board"?

How exactly is this going to blow UEFA out of the water?

gimli2112

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

It taints their League Titles, they bought them. Lied about the books. At least Liverpool are running a tight ship, sell to buy.

I don't think it's that bad, at the end of the day they are not doing anything Liverpool, Utd or Chelsea didn't do back in the day. Granted this is different, they broke the rules, cheated and deserve to be punished but I, personally, don't believe their past triumphs don't deserve an *

Cantona's Collars

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

Be interesting to see if any servers are lost and backups deleted by a young member of staff not knowing any better. It seems to happen in lots of high profile cases

Ah sure, Liverpool should have back ups saved.

ozzy jr

gimli2112 wrote: »

I don't think it's that bad, at the end of the day they are not doing anything Liverpool, Utd or Chelsea didn't do back in the day. Granted this is different, they broke the rules, cheated and deserve to be punished but I, personally, don't believe their past triumphs don't deserve an *

They're not doing anything Liverpool, United or Chelsea didn't do, but this is different because they broke the rules.

That doesn't make sense.

FluffPiece

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

Ah sure, Liverpool should have back ups saved.

Quoting cos I can't thank this twice

gimli2112

ozzy jr wrote: »

They're not doing anything Liverpool, United or Chelsea didn't do, but this is different because they broke the rules.

That doesn't make sense.

what I meant was they bought their success like we did in the past

Widdensushi

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

Ah sure, Liverpool should have back ups saved.

I wonder did it affect their approach to coming to an agreement with liverpool if liverpool got information they wanted kept in house.

ozzy jr

gimli2112 wrote: »

what I meant was they bought their success like we did in the past

In United and Liverpools case, they only spent their own money. It's a world away from the shady goings on at city.

doc_17

ozzy jr wrote: »

In United and Liverpools case, they only spent their own money. It's a world away from the shady goings on at city.

And both Utd and Liverpool have had to deadlift with the consequences, the forever hundreds of millions in debt, and Liverpool almost went to the wall. This is City’s reckoning. They’ll probably get out of it though.

gimli2112

ozzy jr wrote: »

In United and Liverpools case, they only spent their own money. It's a world away from the shady goings on at city.

I agree but what is common is they purchased their way to an advantage / success. I'm not defending City, it's just you can't say it lessens what they have done, well you could but only to the extent that at the time others were apparently playing to the rules

FFP was only ever to protect the big clubs both from slipping back and the oil barons

Cantona's Collars

To think that there were posters who scoffed at the original leaks about this as 'fake news' and without substance.
I think even City were arrogant enough to believe the same but have been proven very wrong.

MD1990

18 19 title is Liverpool's in spirit

Shanotheslayer

MD1990 wrote: »

18 19 title is Liverpool's in spirit

The charge isn't even for that year....

Harry Palmr

If the PL went nuclear then it's the 2012/2014 titles they'd lose - with Man Utd and Liverpool gaining a title each. Obviously both clubs would reject the idea of a tanited title being awarded

cj maxx

Have the EPL/ English fa ever re-cinded a title. Ever ?

theoneeyedman

I must try to dig it up, but I recall an article a year or so ago or a twitter thread from one of the British journalists about the background to this.

Amongst other things, he opines that a UEFA sanction might not be the end of City's troubles. IIRC, there are/were FA/EPL and FIFA investigations going on into City's finances too. He reckoned that if UEFA sanctioned City, it ups the ante for the others as they won't want it be seen to be soft in comparison to UEFA.

He also claimed that UEFA were under pressure from established clubs and PSG not to cover up the City financial doping. The established clubs were in their ear, because they are (generally) playing by the rules, and are trying to protect their place in the pecking order : they obviously don't want to see an outsider upstart come in and buy/cheat their way to the top table. PSG are Qatari owned, and there are not getting on with their UAE neighbours, to say the least. Qatar are of course major of both FIFA and UEFA sponsors, and have some influence with infantino and the boys at UEFA.

All this is not to take away from the central truths about the financial doping claims. If you look at any of the City responses since this started, it's all about the process, the leaks, etc/etc, very little to refute the actual claims about cheating or subventing the rules.

PhiloCypher

I think it was a smart move including a hefty fine. Anticipating an appeal, It gives them the option of saying, fair enough, we're being a bit mean, we'll drop the fine, if CAS rules against them. Leaving City stuck with the worst part of the punishment.

PhlegmyMoses

~Rebel~ wrote: »

I mean, it probably is exactly like this - the campus authorities have no right to punish you with real world consequences like jail, but they can punish your university status by suspending/expelling you if you're a member there. If you're not a student of theirs, you're probably grand.

Likewise, it's UEFA's competition - if they have their own set of rules, and find that those rules have been broken, they're entitled to not allow you to enter their competition. And just with the university example, if you don't fancy entering their competition anyway, you're grand. But if you do, this hurts you.

The CL is an invite only competition. They can uninvite any club at any time for any reason. No club has a right to be there, even if they come first in their league. If you had a team that supported something abhorrent, like outright calling themselves a neo nazi club or whatever, UEFA could uninvite them and they would have no recourse.

No club has ever tested this beyond CAS I think, but I struggle to see what kind of argument could be made. Something similar is happening to Sarries in England and they are having to take it on the chin because the rules of a competition stand firm. I dont expect the courts to have any impact, the only way City get out of this is if UEFA themselves decide to back down. Not out of the realms of possibility

For all the toing and froing one thing is clear, it's a good day for football and a bad day for sportswashing.