So according to the Sindo,its an FF-FG-Green-Grand coalition then ?

gormdubhgorm

Feisar wrote: »

It's a "cheated, not defeated" type thing.

The same thing they go on about in America.
It is as if people did not know the rules of the game going into it.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And again you ignore those who voted for FF based on their claim that they would NOT form a grand coalition with FG in January for pete's sake.

You are jumping up and down claiming stuff the electorate 'voted' for just to suit your own preferences.

That is because FF view FG as the lesser of two evils if thier only other option is SF. That much is obvious to everyone.

I certainly would not have voted FG and Labour if they said they would go into government with SF.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

By the same token or projection you could say that 24% voted for a UI. But we all know that wasn't the case, necessarily.

It is a bit of a projection to say that everyone that voted FG/FF voted for them NOT to go into government with SF.

The RED C poll shows that it is all a bit more nuanced.
https://www.redcresearch.ie/voter-coalition-preferences-ge2020/

OK that is a fair point but both parties said they would NOT go into government with SF. Personally I would not have voted the same without this safeguard.

James Brown

Varadkar's ego won't support a MM led government. He'll jack it in if it does go through.
The Greens have no gusto about them. They need some energy, (green obviously).

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

That is because FF view FG as the lesser of two evils if thier only other option is SF. That much is obvious to everyone.

I certainly would not have voted FG and Labour if they said they would go into government with SF.

If we are going to go on 'what everyone knows', then we know Martin's protestaions were nonsense and an electoral pitch.
When it looked that FF were going to hit 50 something seats on the Sunday, he very definitely opened the door to SF because they were going to be the smaller party. Look at the threads here at the time he gave the interview.

When it became clear that FF and SF were equals in seat terms the gate came back down.

Martin is a political opportunist, always was, and those who voted FF know rightly what would have happened had SF been the smaller party.

Hamsterchops

Best outcome for all would be for SF to lead a coalition of the left in government, let them at it for a few months, until they tear each other to shreds & self combust.

Only then will the new Shinner worshipers wake up and realise that a protest vote is not guaranteed to be a realistic alternative to a real & lasting government.

Long term reality = Fianna Fail, Fine Gael + The Greens....

Also hoping Labour will reawake at some point.

LeinsterDub

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Best outcome for all would be for SF to lead a coalition of the left in government, let them at it for a few months, until they tear each other to shreds & self combust.

Only then will the new Shinner worshipers wake up and realise that a protest vote is not guaranteed to be a realistic alternative to a real & lasting government.

Long term reality = Fianna Fail, Fine Gael + The Greens....

Also hoping Labour will reawake at some point.

And where pray tell are they getting the 20 seats they are short for such a suggestion?

Hamsterchops

...well indeed, I should have said "if" they could find the seats, but they can't.

So where does that leave us?
Another GE in March/April probably...unless my other suggestion (FF,FG,Gr) solidifies.

LeinsterDub

Hamsterchops wrote: »

...well indeed, I should have said "if" they could find the seats, but they can't.

So where does that leave us?
Another GE in March probably...

So yet an other suggestion pulled out of the 'if my aunt had balls' drawer. Any possibility we could leave that drawer closed for the duration of the thread now?

woohoo!!!

FF are under the most pressure. Less pressure on SF and FF. Second GE in a row that Labour have bowed out early so I think they're very vulnerable to a no point voting for them in the next GE. All this has a long way a to go, we're still in the middle of throwing shapes politics.

Eric Cartman

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Best outcome for all would be for SF to lead a coalition of the left in government, let them at it for a few months, until they tear each other to shreds & self combust.

Only then will the new Shinner worshipers wake up and realise that a protest vote is not guaranteed to be a realistic alternative to a real & lasting government.

Long term reality = Fianna Fail, Fine Gael + The Greens....

Also hoping Labour will reawake at some point.

Ive never found myself so desperate for the labour party or SD to sit down to form a government. The greens would do almost as much as PbP to ruib rural ireland given half a chance

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Martin is a political opportunist, always was, and those who voted FF know rightly what would have happened had SF been the smaller party.

Well at that rate Mary Lou was worse, she jumped ship from FF because she had a better chance of playing first team football with a smaller club?

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Well at that rate Mary Lou was worse, she jumped ship from FF because she had a better chance of playing first team football with a smaller club?

You just keep adding to the things you need to get over. gormdubh.

James Brown

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

The same thing they go on about in America.
It is as if people did not know the rules of the game going into it.

I agree. The FG supporters responce to the electorate has been disgraceful and arrogant.

is_that_so

Field east wrote: »

Not so, according to Eoin o Broin on Pat Kenny this morn. He said that they have the numbers- he hates using numbers, prefers to have discussions with like minded parties/ individuals about policy, common ground, etc but not about garnering numbers!!??? When he said a few days ago that it seemed then that a gov cannot be formed without FG or FF. He is now saying that if there was a gov of the left formed that it could do its business because FF or/and FG would BLOCK it. WTF does that mean . How could that happen. If that’s the case the ‘ the’ cohesive left ‘over the last 4 years at least must have had plenty of opportunity to block all gov business - it having a majority of very few seats

If they get everyone else in the Dail apart from FG, FF and Labour, he's right as that would be 81 v 79. I imagine there's that Howlin CC in the picture there. As a practical option I'd put money on a random horse number in the Grand National first.

Fann Linn

is_that_so wrote: »

If they get everyone else in the Dail apart from FG, FF and Labour, he's right as that would be 81 v 79. I imagine there's that Howlin CC in the picture there. As a practical option I'd put money on a random horse number in the Grand National first.

Naughten is in the ring now for CC.

is_that_so

Bowie wrote: »

I agree. The FG supporters response to the electorate has been disgraceful and arrogant.

Who exactly are these supporters? Voters, boardsies or just random FG people you don't like? You do know that any deal for any arrangement will have to be put to respective parties and whoever SF ask, first.

is_that_so

Fann Linn wrote: »

Naughten is in the ring now for CC.

Then we'd be 80:80 on ABFFG.

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If we are going to go on 'what everyone knows', then we know Martin's protestaions were nonsense and an electoral pitch.
When it looked that FF were going to hit 50 something seats on the Sunday, he very definitely opened the door to SF because they were going to be the smaller party. Look at the threads here at the time he gave the interview.

When it became clear that FF and SF were equals in seat terms the gate came back down.

Martin is a political opportunist, always was, and those who voted FF know rightly what would have happened had SF been the smaller party.

You have constantly and consistently underestimated the distaste for Sinn Fein among grassroots Fianna Fáil.

The Rape of Lucretia

SafeSurfer wrote: »

You have constantly and consistently underestimated the distaste for Sinn Fein among grassroots Fianna Fáil.

More than just FF, many parts of society judge SF's association with murder, armed robbery, extorsion, terrorism, bombings, gun running, punishment beatings, booby traps, the manufacture of explosives, intimidation, torture, kidnappings, secterian attacks, protection rackets, knee-capping, disappearing, and summary executions to be distasteful, to say the least.

Fann Linn

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

More than just FF, many parts of society judge SF's association with murder, armed robbery, extorsion, terrorism, bombings, gun running, punishment beatings, booby traps, the manufacture of explosives, intimidation, torture, kidnappings, secterian attacks, protection rackets, knee-capping, disappearing, and summary executions to be distasteful, to say the least.

And yet FFG want them to form a govt?
Not very responsible don't ye think!

SafeSurfer

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

More than just FF, many parts of society judge SF's association with murder, armed robbery, extorsion, terrorism, bombings, gun running, punishment beatings, booby traps, the manufacture of explosives, intimidation, torture, kidnappings, secterian attacks, protection rackets, knee-capping, disappearing, and summary executions to be distasteful, to say the least.

Not to mention the espionage of Sinn Fein members, employed as parliamentary assistants by a still sitting TD on the movements of government ministers including the minister for justice. These Sinn Fein members were subsequently convicted and jailed by the central criminal court, eliciting not an apology from the SF TD but a call from him to abolish the court!

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

You have constantly and consistently underestimated the distaste for Sinn Fein among grassroots Fianna Fáil.

Members of FF gun ran for the 'RA not that long ago.

Are you denying now that Martin opened the door to SF on the Sunday after the election?

He did that because he knew the last people who would have any real issue with would be the FF party. E.G. Bertie Ahern, who, last night on the Week In Politics had no issue with it.

Fann Linn

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Members of FF gun ran for the 'RA not that long ago.

Are you denying now that Martin opened the door to SF on the Sunday after the election?

He did that because he knew the last people who would have any real issue with would be the FF party. E.G. Bertie Ahern, who, last night on the Week In Politics had no issue with it.

Plus O Cuiv, McGuinness etc

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Members of FF gun ran for the 'RA not that long ago.

Are you denying now that Martin opened the door to SF on the Sunday after the election?

He did that because he knew the last people who would have any real issue with would be the FF party. E.G. Bertie Ahern, who, last night on the Week In Politics had no issue with it.

You seem obsessed with Michael Martin, to the point of knowing his thinking! Maybe you should come out of your slider and join Fianna Fáil.

topmanamillion

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The issues with health isn't the health system as in the hospitals, it's the lack of the community based facilities. Think you're having a heart attack ? Go A&E! Need some minor stitches? Go to A&E! Elderly person needs to recover after a fall stay in hospital. And also the fact the private sector is availing of public facilities

Far too simplistic. Certainly one of the issues but specifically about A&E.
What about excessively long waiting lists for issues which become life threatening/limiting because they aren't treated in time?
Staff shortages in hospitals?
Brain drains and skill shortages as Irish educated medics and nurses leave in their droves?

The number one issue in the health service is wastage.
We've the highest per capita spend on healthcare in Western Europe but we have services akin to a third world country.

Wastage primarily aimed twoards a top heavy managerial structure is crippling the HSE.
Anytime there's a scandal in the health service there's another layer of management/board of directors added to a service that doesn't need them.
Tackle wastage and the health service will start to function properly at all levels.

The British model is trust's and that works reasonably well because there's accountability at a local and regional level.
In the HSE if your good at talking the talk and paperwork you'll absolutely excel and fly up the structure. If youre a solid professional nurse or doctor you'll be fighting against staff shortages and all round poor working conditions.

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

You seem obsessed with Michael Martin, to the point of knowing his thinking! Maybe you should come out of your slider and join Fianna Fáil.

Not a bit obsessed.
Everytime I mention him a particular poster seems to jump to his defence though.

SafeSurfer

Fann Linn wrote: »

Plus O Cuiv, McGuinness etc

A handful of members who are soft on Sinn Fein does not make FF a pro Sinn Fein organization any more than a handful of members of Sinn Fein who are soft on child sex abuse makes Sinn Fein a pro child sex abuse party.

Fann Linn

SafeSurfer wrote: »

A handful of members who are soft on Sinn Fein does not make FF a pro Sinn Fein organization any more than a handful of members of Sinn Fein who are soft on child sex abuse makes Sinn Fein a pro child sex abuse party.

Agreed. Couldn't really give a toss either way now. Ball is in MM court so I'll sit by and look on hopefully for him to eat humble pie.

SF cannot form a govt.
FG don't want to be in Govt.
FF and MM do.

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Not a bit obsessed.
Everytime I mention him a particular poster seems to jump to his defence though.

Just pointing out your mis analysis. Before the election you were telling anyone who would listen how FF and SF would coalesce because Michael Martin couldn’t be trusted. Now that he is sticking to his word you are saying he would have not stuck to his word if, this, that or the other.

I am the first to admit I got the Sinn Fein seat count wrong. Completely wrong. I predicted they would get 30 seats. It would be a welcome display of maturity for some posters to admit they got things like Martin not sticking to his word wrong too.

Then again admitting one got it wrong is anathema to some people.