So according to the Sindo,its an FF-FG-Green-Grand coalition then ?

jimmycrackcorm

dwmcdos wrote: »

Fianna Fail may as well go for it, they've nothing to lose looking at their voter demographic, if they sit in opposition a good chunk of their core vote dies off before the next election, whereas if they manage to do a good job in government they might pull some younger voters back from SF. It makes no sense for the Greens, half their seats came from SF transfers and the other half were mostly votes against FF and FG. Can see this coalition finishing them if it goes ahead. FG? Can't see their core vote deserting them too much further but they'll make no friends either. They'll lose my vote if they go ahead with this.

I'm of the same opinion. I view FGs job as being the party that fixes up the economy after it has been messed up. Stay out of government this time and get another ten years next time to bring us back on track

is_that_so

Whitecarstones wrote: »

Not a rant at all. Just stating my case like i am entitled to do.

Not SF assertions. Believe it or not these things are happening around the country. Do you watch the news? Or walk out the door and talk to people?

I am not saying "I DEMAND SINN FEIN GO INTO GOV NOW THEY GOT MOST FIRST PREFERENCE VOTES". I Simply said maybe they deserve a shot. If they fail, they fail and only then would they be on equal terms with FF and FG. Because they HAVE failed.

Sure, but they only get a shot if they have the numbers, they don't. Much as I respect the vote fully I also know that people do not engage with politics save at election time. How engaged they are is the question but the return of some SF TDs and more than suggestions that some people just voted for SF on sight tells me it may be limited. Vote for who you choose but at least make sure you know who they are and whether they match what you want to see in a government. Using a party as a protest vote only just leaves options even more limited next time.

Whitecarstones

And just to add to my above points.


Sinn Fein won a significantly higher amount of seats than usual because that representation of "change" was appealing to voters.

Do people honestly think that overnight people became pro IRA? I don't think so.

I think the results do represent the anger and the fustration of the eletorate towards FF and FG and I do believe if they fielded more candidates they would be the main political party by a sizeable majority. Maybe out of protest, maybe they felt someone new deserved a chance or maybe both.

I just think the discriminative posts about SF voters has been disgusting.

Bob24

dwmcdos wrote: »

It makes no sense for the Greens, half their seats came from SF transfers and the other half were mostly votes against FF and FG. Can see this coalition finishing them if it goes ahead.

While I agree with the above, another way to look at it would be that if the Greens can get a minister or 2 in key areas which matter to their electorate and give an impression they are making a difference in those areas, it could boost their credibility next time around in terms of showing they have people with the calibre to be in government and to implement policies. Now would they be able to achieve this, I don’t know.

Harry Palmr

Given that Brexit isn't over and the current mood music from across the water is very hostile to striking an agreement with the EU (NO DEAL EXIT ALERT!) then it's actually a good thing to have a government here that is big and strong enough to not crumble if the economy starts to wobble here (which it surely will for a year or two).

I'm not sure having Sinn Fein giving it large to London would be to anyone's benefit in this context.

All three parties will be walking a very fine line.

is_that_so

Bob24 wrote: »

While I agree with the above, another way to look at it would be that if the Greens can get a minister or 2 in keep areas which matter to their electorate and give an impression they are making a difference in those areas, it could boost their credibility next time around in terms of showing they have people with the calibre to be in government and to mollement policies. Now would they be able to achieve this, I don’t know.

They'd be offered Environment straight off the bat and might even get a junior linked to Transport. I'd expect haggling on some of their demands but they could reasonably expect to return to the people with most of them achieved in some form.

is_that_so

Whitecarstones wrote: »

And just to add to my above points.


Sinn Fein won a significantly higher amount of seats than usual because that representation of "change" was appealing to voters.

Do people honestly think that overnight people became pro IRA? I don't think so.

I think the results do represent the anger and the fustration of the eletorate towards FF and FG and I do believe if they fielded more candidates they would be the main political party by a sizeable majority. Maybe out of protest, maybe they felt someone new deserved a chance or maybe both.

I just think the discriminative posts about SF voters has been disgusting.

Don't take it to heart. Every party voter gets it in the neck in some way, blueshirts. FFailures, delusional, morons etc.

Idbatterim

Augeo wrote: »

I work, wasn't born into money or property. I pay plenty tax and will be delighted if SF have no say on what's done with it.

You’re delighted with a fifty percent marginal rate over a pittance from FFG?!

ddarcy

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Given that Brexit isn't over and the current mood music from across the water is very hostile to striking an agreement with the EU (NO DEAL EXIT ALERT!) then it's actually a good thing to have a government here that is big and strong enough to not crumble if the economy starts to wobble here (which it surely will for a year or two).

I'm not sure having Sinn Fein giving it large to London would be to anyone's benefit in this context.

I know you’re mentioning big and strong enough. But they will only have 84-85 seats. Although I can see them supporting Howlin for CC. There are noises from FF that this isn’t fully supported and I wonder about FG as well. It only takes 5-6 seats to make it unstable. So this may be a 1-2 seat at most majority. So if think they will need to get extra help from somewhere else.

Harry Palmr

Well it's bigger and stronger than any other plausible alternative! Hopefully a "national emergency" type situation would keep them hanging together.

all about the mane

BanditLuke wrote: »

Another blow for democracy if true.

How is it a blow for democracy? The people voted, they need to be heard.

is_that_so

ddarcy wrote: »

I know you’re mentioning big and strong enough. But they will only have 84-85 seats. Although I can see them supporting Howlin for CC. There are noises from FF that this isn’t fully supported and I wonder about FG as well. It only takes 5-6 seats to make it unstable. So this may be a 1-2 seat at most majority. So if think they will need to get extra help from somewhere else.

The difference here is that there would be three blocks and no Indos to rein in. You'd expect a watertight deal to bind them all in for a 2-3 year stint anyway.

is_that_so

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Well it's bigger and stronger than any other plausible alternative! Hopefully a "national emergency" type situation would keep them hanging together.

The continuity of personnel would be a big plus.

Idbatterim

Augme wrote: »

You'd have thought the greens would have learnt there lesson from the last time out. I can't see this being popular with their voters at all. I was one of them and I'd really struggle to vote for them again in the next election.

So you voted for them NOT to get their policies implemented? I think the green thing is different, it’s a movement, I don’t see their vote collapsing etc , it will get higher if anything imo... look at how green the schools ethos has come , these will all be voters in a few years

With ffg we get less risk , but also potentially less reward , if you are one of those fcuked by housing ...

Whitecarstones

is_that_so wrote: »

Sure, but they only get a shot if they have the numbers, they don't. Much as I respect the vote fully I also know that people do not engage with politics save at election time. How engaged they are is the question but the return of some SF TDs and more than suggestions that some people just voted for SF on sight tells me it may be limited. Vote for who you choose but at least make sure you know who they are and whether they match what you want to see in a government. Using a party as a protest vote only just leaves options even more limited next time.

We can agree on one thing at least. People shouldnt vote out of protest. But unfortunately that does happen.

Yes some SF policies dont make sense but I think people are in such dire straits in their personal lives that they want so bad for SF to be the answer to all their problems.

I cant say if SF would be successful or a complete disaster but I do at least recognise that FF and FG have let way too many people down too often.

Idbatterim

Whitecarstones wrote: »

We can agree on one thing at least. People shouldnt vote out of protest. But unfortunately that does happen.

Yes some SF policies dont make sense but I think people are in such dire straits in their personal lives that they want so bad for SF to be the answer to all their problems.

I cant say if SF would be successful or a complete disaster but I do at least recognise that FF and FG have let way too many people down too often.

You know what might finally get ffg moving ? A protest vote ! What would you have suggested ?

dwmcdos

Bob24 wrote: »

While I agree with the above, another way to look at it would be that if the Greens can get a minister or 2 in key areas which matter to their electorate and give an impression they are making a difference in those areas, it could boost their credibility next time around in terms of showing they have people with the calibre to be in government and to implement policies. Now would they be able to achieve this, I don’t know.

I doubt it tbh, even with the best of intentions they'd be the third biggest partner in a coalition with 12/85 seats, can't see them getting anything meaningful done.

Bob24

dwmcdos wrote: »

I doubt it tbh, even with the best of intentions they'd be the third biggest partner in a coalition with 12/85 seats, can't see them getting anything meaningful done.

Basically they’d have to be that annoying small coalition partner which keeps threatening to bring down the government if it doesn’t get a few key demands addressed.

I.e. they’d have to be clear with their electorate and with the other parties that they are entering the coalition with a specific restricted scope of action and they expect a strong freedom of action within that scope but won’t influence other areas.

If they can’t achieve something along those lines, agree with you there is nothing in it for them. But while it is not a given I wouldn’t completely discard the eventuality of it happening.

Whitecarstones

Idbatterim wrote: »

You know what might finally get ffg moving ? A protest vote ! What would you have suggested ?

You are right. Out of all of this, SF's rise in popularity may give the kick up the arse FF and FG needed. Maybe it will shock them into taking action in areas that need it. Is that necessarily a bad thing?.

What do I think? I am not a political expert nor do I make myself out to be. I just get annoyed by the arrogance of people on here and the fact they think anyone who voted SF are terrorist supporters. I also get annoyed with the same people keep overlooking the inadequacies and incompetence of FF and FG.

I was brought up in a Fianna Fàil family. My first election I voted FF because it was the way things were in my family. It came from my grandparents.

But since then I have voted FG labour independents green social democrats you name it. Yet still nothing was done.

Yes I will admit this time I voted SF. and the reason I did was....

My local sinn fein TD and counsellor have done so much for our area. More than anyone else. With years. Not just election time.

My local sinn fein TD has done so much for mental health and for other personal issues. They werent all talk. They acted on it. They did something about it and possibly ended up saving my life.

I am still waiting to hear back from my local labour and ff TD. That was about 10 years ago now!

So maybe it was selfish that I voted SF. It was not for a united Ireland, or building 100,000 houses or abolishing property tax. It was because they represented me to the best of their ability and to countless others in my area.

I am delighted he got in on first preference votes. Because I felt he deserved it. Not because of his party affiliation. I would have voted for him if he was in any other party. It just happened it was SF.

dwmcdos

Bob24 wrote: »

Basically they’d have to be that annoying small coalition partner which keeps threatening to bring down the government if it doesn’t get a few key demands addressed.

I.e. they’d have to be clear with their electorate and with the other parties that they are entering the coalition with a specific restricted scope of action and they expect a strong freedom of action within that scope but won’t influence other areas.

If they can’t achieve something along those lines, agree with you there is nothing in it for them. But while it is not a given I wouldn’t completely discard the eventuality of it happening.

They'll have to absolutely smash it out of the park even then, I reckon they're down half their seats the second they go into that coalition. Can't see too many SF/ anti FFG voters giving them a transfer again in that scenario.

dark crystal

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I don't think you understand what democracy means when FF and FG hold twice as many seats as SF.

is_that_so wrote: »

How exactly, given that people voted for three parties in almost exactly the same numbers?

marko99 wrote: »

How so? They didn't win enough seats to form a government. That's exactly what democracy is.

The fact that you don't like a particular result doesn't make it undemocratic!

I think when people mention the word undemocratic, it's not so much related to the amount of seats, more so the complete unwillingness of FFG to engage with SF at all, despite them being the second largest party in the state (Equal to FF if you discount the Ceann Coimhrle). Let's face it, many of the TDs now in discussions on the formation of a new government, barely got elected by the skin of their teeth!

There's a feeling out there from SF voters that their votes didn't matter. That the old guard have excluded them. It's hard to see it any other way in honesty.

Edgware

all about the mane wrote: »

How is it a blow for democracy? The people voted, they need to be heard.

Votes count. Opinion polls dont. Approx 37% didnt bother their hole voting. Either they are happy with the way things are going or they see no point in voting. There is no evidence to show that Sinn Fein have been attracting votes from the sector of regular non voters.
Sinn Fein can just accept that they are not getting into government.

LeinsterDub

Mortelaro wrote: »

Was there not enough support for Sinn Féin and the vote left transfer left movement?

Let's face it the greens are not really a left party,so if this goes ahead,you have s centre led government for the next 5 years
Plenty time to have a few hundred thousand extra houses built,an affordable child car plan in place,taxes reduced and the health service overhauled under Sláinte care

Interesting times indeed...

They didn't do in the last 90 years and you expect us to believe that they'll do it in 5 years why?

Mortelaro

dwmcdos wrote: »

They'll have to absolutely smash it out of the park even then, I reckon they're down half their seats the second they go into that coalition. Can't see too many SF/ anti FFG voters giving them a transfer again in that scenario.

Why?
I see only core leftist voters being that way
The contents like to stay content
SF'S strategists greatest fear

NIMAN

Whitecarstones wrote: »

Yes I will admit this time I voted SF. and the reason I did was....

My local sinn fein TD and counsellor have done so much for our area. More than anyone else. With years. Not just election time.

My local sinn fein TD has done so much for mental health and for other personal issues. They werent all talk. They acted on it. They did something about it and possibly ended up saving my life.

I am still waiting to hear back from my local labour and ff TD. That was about 10 years ago now!

So maybe it was selfish that I voted SF. It was not for a united Ireland, or building 100,000 houses or abolishing property tax. It was because they represented me to the best of their ability and to countless others in my area.

I am delighted he got in on first preference votes. Because I felt he deserved it. Not because of his party affiliation. I would have voted for him if he was in any other party. It just happened it was SF.

Can I ask you something about this?

How did this person do in the last local elections? He sounds like a great local representative, but we hear how so many of them did very poorly yet got huge GE votes. I'd think if local reps were great they'd clean up in the locals.

Also, as much as this person helped your area and you, we are voting for TDs in the GE to fix the country, not local issues. That sort of voting has people ridiculing those who vote for the Healy-Rae's etc. There is a bigger picture.

Bill 2.0

LeinsterDub wrote: »

They didn't do in the last 90 years and you expect us to believe that they'll do it in 5 years why?

Are you really going to compare the Ireland of 90 years ago to the Ireland of today and claim that things haven't improved?

LeinsterDub

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

So nothing changes except with the addition of some new airy fairy taxes that the huggers will tack on. That was all as worthwhile as expected then.

What taxes? Please do give examples. All 3 said they agree with a Carbon tax so what other taxes do you they the green have in their manifesto?

Mortelaro

LeinsterDub wrote: »

They didn't do in the last 90 years and you expect us to believe that they'll do it in 5 years why?

They didnt do what?
This country's population has doubled
Services have not
As I said in later posts,they would need a toe in the hole if they dont push on this time
On housing they've not much to do because that's already starting to head for 30k builds a year
40,an extra 10 is easily doable

Edgware

dark crystal wrote: »

I think when people mention the word undemocratic, it's not so much related to the amount of seats, more so the complete unwillingness of FFG to engage with SF at all, despite them being the second largest party in the state (Equal to FF if you discount the Ceann Coimhrle). Let's face it, many of the TDs now in discussions on the formation of a new government, barely got elected by the skin of their teeth!

There's a feeling out there from SF voters that their votes didn't matter. That the old guard have excluded them. It's hard to see it any other way in honesty.

1. Theres no rule to say that to be elected you need a big surplus. Reaching the quota will do.
2. Coalitions are the norm now. If your policies are not agreeable to other parties there is no obligation on them to deal with you
3. What policies will S.F. dilute to get into coalition? People voted for them because of their manifesto. They were adamant in all the debates that "Mammy knows best" and shot down ( no pun intended) everyone elses policies. Suddenly after smelling power they are willing to move back to the centre. The revolution didnt last long