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So according to the Sindo,its an FF-FG-Green-Grand coalition then ?

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    #92
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Bill 2.0 wrote: »
    Are you really going to compare the Ireland of 90 years ago to the Ireland of today and claim that things haven't improved?

    Pick a time frame any time frame. 9 years of FG for example. 4 years of FG - FF S&C. FF had 3 terms during the best economic performance in history.

    Still no Irish NHS, still no decent public transport, public service are being bled dry, child care still massively expensive etc etc.


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    #93
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 33,660 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Whitecarstones wrote: »
    I cant say if SF would be successful or a complete disaster but I do at least recognise that FF and FG have let way too many people down too often.

    Always wondered this about politics.

    People will always say the government failed to deliver ..... that kinda goes without question does it not? Is there any government anywhere in the democratic world where the population could collectively say "I'll tell you what, they did a really good job this last 5 years". I would severely doubt it.

    Sure thats why governments change. People vote them out cos they aren't happy with them. Politics by its nature is doomed to failure because they have to promise the unachieveable to get elected. If in their manifesto they said, "sorry there will be no tax cuts, no this, no that" (i,e, be honest) they wouldn't get elected. They all lie to get elected. SF did it too.


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    #94
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    They didnt do what?
    This country's population has doubled
    Services have not
    As I said in later posts,they would need a toe in the hole if they dont push on this time
    On housing they've not much to do because that's already starting to head for 30k builds a year
    40,an extra 10 is easily doable

    They maybe building house but they aren't affordable or they are affordable but your job is 2 hours away.
    Housing crisis also meaning schools crisis, GP crisis. PT crisis. You can't just build houses.


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    #95
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,179 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    They'll get a bounce in the combined vote share for about a year and then decline dramatically over the rest of the term as they begin to devour each other.
    This will increase as the rabbits get caught in the headlights of the next election.

    May not be SF that capitalise next time but somebody will.


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    #96
    dwmcdos
    Registered Users Posts: 37 ✭dwmcdos


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    Why?
    I see only core leftist voters being that way
    The contents like to stay content
    SF'S strategists greatest fear

    They'd at least 5 or 6 seats that they got by the skin of their teeth on transfers from left wing candidates, it wouldn't take much for those to be lost.


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    #97
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    dark crystal wrote: »
    I think when people mention the word undemocratic, it's not so much related to the amount of seats, more so the complete unwillingness of FFG to engage with SF at all, despite them being the second largest party in the state (Equal to FF if you discount the Ceann Coimhrle). Let's face it, many of the TDs now in discussions on the formation of a new government, barely got elected by the skin of their teeth!

    There's a feeling out there from SF voters that their votes didn't matter. That the old guard have excluded them. It's hard to see it any other way in honesty.
    No voter has a monopoly over what politicians do to form a government, that's democracy. They are our representatives and not just not those of a minority. If you're in the top 3,4 or 5 you get elected and you're a TD like any other TD, the number of votes doesn't matter. The stance of FG, FF and Labour were known in advance by voters, their voters included. It is a fundamental red line.


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    #98
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Pick a time frame any time frame. 9 years or FG for example. 4 years of FG - FF S&C. FF had 3 terms during the best economic performance in history.

    Still no Irish NHS, still no decent public transport, public service are being bled dry, child care still massively expensive etc etc.
    The 94-97 rainbow coalition is generally considered to be a good one as were the modernising Lemass governments of the sixties.


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    #99
    Whitecarstones
    Registered Users Posts: 129 ✭✭Whitecarstones


    NIMAN wrote: »
    Can I ask you something about this?

    How did this person do in the last local elections? He sounds like a great local representative, but we hear how so many of them did very poorly yet got huge GE votes. I'd think if local reps were great they'd clean up in the locals.

    Also, as much as this person helped your area and you, we are voting for TDs in the GE to fix the country, not local issues. That sort of voting has people ridiculing those who vote for the Healy-Rae's etc. There is a bigger picture.

    He was a TD. Was re-elected. The counsellor also did well in local elections.

    Yeah, as I said probably a selfish vote in some regards but I guess I do have a little faith in me that SF could do well given the chance. But I am kind of basing that on the type of person my local SF TD is, if you get me?

    But look at what the Healy Raes have done for Kerry. People dont vote them in for the craic. They actually do something for their constiuency and that bears great influence come polling day.

    People vote on what they see locally. Not for one second do I believe people vote based on manifestos. Regina Doherty was right there to be fair to her. Nor do I believe people vote based on debates on RTE, which to me was a complete farce.

    I think the electorate need to be given a little respect for who they voted for. Thats really my main point. Its awful to see what people are saying about sinn fein AND other party suppoters. Its great to have a point of view and to be involved in current affairs. But you can do it without slating other people because they are not like you, or they voted for a particular party.

    Some people on here need to grow up and debate with a bit of integrity.


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    #100
    JohnnyFlash
    Registered Users Posts: 7,055 ✭✭✭JohnnyFlash


    The best cure for SF is a dose of government. FF should do a deal with them, implement even a portion of this change they were on about, and give it a chance.

    Get rid of the local property tax first. Like that one.


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    #101
    Edgware
    Registered Users Posts: 5,874 ✭✭✭Edgware


    Whitecarstones wrote: »
    He was a TD. Was re-elected. The counsellor also did well in local elections.

    Yeah, as I said probably a selfish vote in some regards but I guess I do have a little faith in me that SF could do well given the chance. But I am kind of basing that on the type of person my local SF TD is, if you get me?

    But look at what the Healy Raes have done for Kerry. People dont vote them in for the craic. They actually do something for their constiuency and that bears great influence come polling day.

    People vote on what they see locally. Not for one second do I believe people vote based on manifestos. Regina Doherty was right there to be fair to her. Nor do I believe people vote based on debates on RTE, which to me was a complete farce.

    I think the electorate need to be given a little respect for who they voted for. Thats really my main point. Its awful to see what people are saying about sinn fein AND other party suppoters. Its great to have a point of view and to be involved in current affairs. But you can do it without slating other people because they are not like you, or they voted for a particular party.

    Some people on here need to grow up and debate with a bit of integrity.

    Exactly what have the Healy Rae crew done for Kerry?

    Helped people get welfare benefits that they are entitled to anyway?
    Not much else except provide gombeen entertainment


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    #102
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    is_that_so wrote: »
    The 94-97 rainbow coalition is generally considered to be a good one as were the modernising Lemass governments of the sixties.

    Perhaps but what long term changes or improvements did they deliver? And note I'm not talking about social changes


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    #103
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 7,712 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    What taxes? Please do give examples. All 3 said they agree with a Carbon tax so what other taxes do you they the green have in their manifesto?

    Watch this space. Normal people will have no quality of life in the name of climate, which only exists to feather the nests and egos of people like the Green Party.
    Not that it’ll matter much to the likes of FG followers but the rest of us don’t have money to burn.


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    #104
    Mortelaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    dwmcdos wrote: »
    They'd at least 5 or 6 seats that they got by the skin of their teeth on transfers from left wing candidates, it wouldn't take much for those to be lost.

    Nonsense
    The vote left transfer left will be neutered in 5 years time by a delivery of services if the grand coalition has any sense


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    #105
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 33,660 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Whitecarstones wrote: »
    Yeah, as I said probably a selfish vote in some regards but I guess I do have a little faith in me that SF could do well given the chance. But I am kind of basing that on the type of person my local SF TD is, if you get me?

    Don't get me wrong, wasn't getting at you in any way.

    Of course people will often be influenced by what their local politician does, its totally natural. Human nature.


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    #106
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    Nonsense
    The vote left transfer left will be neutered in 5 years time by a delivery of services if the grand coalition has any sense

    If they had any sense they would have already delivered said services. Their ideology doesn't allow them to do so. Looks at FF for example, part of their proposed solution to the housing situation was a SSIA style give away.


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    #107
    Mortelaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Perhaps but what long term changes or improvements did they deliver? And note I'm not talking about social changes

    Dole and pension about double the rest of the western world
    A super quality of life for those sectors versus Sinn Féins poster boy Maduro of Venezuela for example...


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    #108
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    ReginaldSmythV wrote: »
    Watch this space. Normal people will have no quality of life in the name of climate, which only exists to feather the nests and egos of people like the Green Party.
    Not that it’ll matter much to the likes of FG followers but the rest of us don’t have money to burn.

    So that would be 0 taxes you can name.


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    #109
    Mortelaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    If they had any sense they would have already delivered said services. Their ideology doesn't allow them to do so. Looks at FF for example, part of their proposed solution to the housing situation was a SSIA style give away.
    You tell me after the first 4 years of fixing the crash youd have got the circa 10 or 11 billion per annum to pay for this then and I'll take you seriously


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    #110
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    Dole and pension about double the rest of the western world
    A super quality of life for those sectors versus Sinn Féins poster boy Maduro of Venezuela for example...

    Didn't FF - FG deliver this level of social payments?.
    I'm not talking about SF so I've no idea why you are


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    #111
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    You tell me after the first 4 years of fixing the crash youd have got the circa 10 or 11 billion per annum to pay for this then and I'll take you seriously
    FF could have easily delivered in in the 90's - 00's if it was their want.

    The EIB for Dart expansion.
    We have the 3rd highest level of spending on health. It's reform the health service needs not yet more billions


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    #112
    q85dw7osi4lebg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,502 ✭✭✭q85dw7osi4lebg


    Delighted we are getting more of the same for the next few years.

    More insurance issues, more housing issues, more motoring taxes, more USC.

    Congrats all!


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    #113
    Mortelaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Didn't FF - FG deliver this level of social payments?.
    I'm not talking about SF so I've no idea why you are

    Yes to the first one over about 30 years
    And yes you are as the alternative for the 2nd one
    All related


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    #114
    JohnnyFlash
    Registered Users Posts: 7,055 ✭✭✭JohnnyFlash


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    If they had any sense they would have already delivered said services. Their ideology doesn't allow them to do so. Looks at FF for example, part of their proposed solution to the housing situation was a SSIA style give away.

    That’s why it’s so vitally important we have SF in power. Eoin O’B in behind the desk of the housing ministry working his magic. Making tradesmen appear out of thin air, building houses for 130k a pop, putting in a rent freeze and not getting landlords to exit the market, getting rid of the local property tax which helps fund some of this.

    He wrote a book on this you know?


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    #115
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    Yes to the first one over about 30 years
    And yes you are as the alternative for the 2nd one
    All related

    I'm not proposing SF as the alternate. Just discussing the centre rights ideology. I honestly would love to see the SD ideology being accepted more.


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    #116
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    JohnnyFlash wrote: »
    That’s why it’s so vitally important we have SF in power. Eoin O’B in behind the desk of the housing ministry working his magic. Making tradesmen appear out of thin air, building houses for 130k a pop, putting in a rent freeze and not getting landlords to exit the market, getting rid of the local property tax which helps fund some of this.

    He wrote a book on this you know?

    I don't support SF and disagree with large parts of their manifesto


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    #117
    Mortelaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    FF could have easily delivered in in the 90's - 00's if it was their want.
    They did deliver then though and Bertie with Mary Harney got back in,in 2007..
    It's reform the health service needs not yet more billions
    Spell out these reforms please
    Nobody seems to be any the wiser on the details of this other than soundbytism's


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    #118
    JohnnyFlash
    Registered Users Posts: 7,055 ✭✭✭JohnnyFlash


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    I'm not proposing SF as the alternate. Just discussing the centre rights ideology. I honestly would love to see the SD ideology being accepted more.

    You live in one of the last great social democracies in the world.

    The fairest tax system in Europe
    The highest pension and social welfare in Europe
    Almost free third level education.
    World class health care (true, despite the narrative)
    Etc
    Etc

    People actually don’t have a clue how good they have it. You are the 1%. You are the elite. You are luckier than almost anyone else on this planet.


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    #119
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    An FFFGGN coalition is as it should. Its a very close alliance, and reflective of the wishes of the Irish electorate.

    It was always likely to be so, once the counts were in. Only delays were : the confirmation that neither FF or FG were going to do a u turn on their pre-election promises. So fair play - kudos to them on that. And space and time given to SF and their supporters, after their euphoria and maths ran away with them last weekend, and the truth sank in that 37 seats is not a majority in a 160 seat parliament.

    Democracy wins.


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    #120
    Jinglejangle69
    Registered Users Posts: 7,449 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    JohnnyFlash wrote: »
    You live in one of the last great social democracies in the world.

    The fairest tax system in Europe
    The highest pension and social welfare in Europe
    Almost free third level education.
    World class health care (true, despite the narrative)
    Etc
    Etc

    People actually don’t have a clue how good they have it. You are the 1%. You are the elite. You are luckier than almost anyone else on this planet.

    And put up in hotel rooms for free while waiting to get a 3 bed house for pittance even though you don't contribute to the pot.

    Nowhere else would you get it, it's insane.


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    #121
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    JohnnyFlash wrote: »
    You live in one of the last great social democracies in the world.

    The fairest tax system in Europe
    The highest pension and social welfare in Europe
    Almost free third level education.
    World class health care (true, despite the narrative)
    Etc
    Etc

    People actually don’t have a clue how good they have it. You are the 1%. You are the elite. You are luckier than almost anyone else on this planet.
    So we shouldn't t ask or want for better is your point?


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