So according to the Sindo,its an FF-FG-Green-Grand coalition then ?

ThunbergsAreGo

My only hope is they make working "work" for people but given the election narrative I am not expecting much

I actual think the biggest mistake they will make is trying to be like a SF lite. That isn't what their voters asked for.

Most people in Ireland aren't actually left or right inclined, they just want their lives to be better (and are incredibly driven by media narrative)

is_that_so

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

This is surely blinding by wishful thinking than any rational analysis. Ireland is not going to turn left, let alone left to a party with an added patina of violence, terrorism, murder, and semtex experts.
They cannot be obliterated - there is simply far to great a majority in Ireland for whom they accurately represent their political leaning. I could see a merger on the cards alright, possibly in a couple of elections time. SF can become the dominant opposition, as more and more people forget the whiff of gunpowder, and a predominantly two party choice for government - the natural order of democracies- reestablished itself. And SF will likely, with a couple of smalies form à Govt some day. They will gravitate towards the centre though to achieve that. Blair's Labour style.

It is their future to stand any chance to govern but they will have to leave the left and some of their hardcore people behind. If they do that right they'll gain far more. I do wish they'd stop calling us "citizens" though!

The Rape of Lucretia

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Absolutely- and also, that quote from Richard Bruton around “explaining detailed policy”- that’s where the traditional parties are going wrong- the public LOVE upfront statements- 100,000 houses, let’s get Brexit done, Fake News- they don’t want the detail nor have the patience for it, nor in many cases will be able to understand it - pithy positive sound bytes are what gets votes these day- Trump knows it, Borris knows it, and indeed, Mary Lou knows it- “I’m not his Mammy”

When 84% of voters return the same political picture of the Dail, it is plain, there is no great appetite for change. Improvement sure. Who doesn't want that? But not change as such. What is already being done, but just done better. Most reasonable people realise this, and so as a group, didn't move their vote.

Wanderer78

The Rape of Lucretia wrote:

This is surely blinding by wishful thinking than any rational analysis. Ireland is not going to turn left, let alone left to a party with an added patina of violence, terrorism, murder, and semtex experts. They cannot be obliterated - there is simply far to great a majority in Ireland for whom they accurately represent their political leaning. I could see a merger on the cards alright, possibly in a couple of elections time. SF can become the dominant opposition, as more and more people forget the whiff of gunpowder, and a predominantly two party choice for government - the natural order of democracies- reestablished itself. And SF will likely, with a couple of smalies form à Govt some day. They will gravitate towards the centre though to achieve that. Blair's Labour style.

Yup definitely, the world is definitely gravitating towards a more neoliberal society, spot on

LeinsterDub

is_that_so wrote: »

Well Lemass set up the education system you came through, shook off our protectionist attitude and overdependence on agriculture, which in turn laid the foundations for the FDI model we still value along with our path to EEC membership. The 94-97 coalition were the first to steer us towards the low unemployment and decent growth model, they had a budget surplus and gave us the 12.5% CT.

Fair enough. I was being a tad hyperbolic saying 90 years in fairness

road_high

suicide_circus wrote: »

The problem with keeping SF to their natural environment of the opposition benches is that we'll never hear and end of it, old boys club conspiracy, #voteforchange, world's smallest violin etc etc

If SF actually got into government their cough would have been softened forevermore after they at very least failed to deliver the whackier parts of the manifesto and more than likely tanked the economy to some degree

I believe they should be forced in. Yes the economy would be damaged and they’d achieve zilch but it would be the perfect illustration for people as to how useless sf actually are

Idbatterim

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

This is surely blinding by wishful thinking than any rational analysis. Ireland is not going to turn left, let alone left to a party with an added patina of violence, terrorism, murder, and semtex experts.
They cannot be obliterated - there is simply far to great a majority in Ireland for whom they accurately represent their political leaning. I could see a merger on the cards alright, possibly in a couple of elections time. SF can become the dominant opposition, as more and more people forget the whiff of gunpowder, and a predominantly two party choice for government - the natural order of democracies- reestablished itself. And SF will likely, with a couple of smalies form à Govt some day. They will gravitate towards the centre though to achieve that. Blair's Labour style.

it doesnt need to go left, the analysis is wrong. Is abolishing usc up to a point and lpt a left wing strategy typically? I have no issue with centreist government, I just am not tolerating rip off housing and it is deliberate and intentional. They give away luxury housing for as good as free and hundreds of thousands of workers, many paying a marginal rate of FIFTY percent are meant to sit back, while they live in kips or at home and think "sure its grand"? LOL! we couldnt all get housing for a pittance years ago, how many who got a boom time loan , would qualify now? So we are rich enough to give away luxury housing for as good as free, but the working poor, paying for it all, should exist for decades, in the hope of clawing enough together, to live in some boring dump an hour outside of dublin? yeah right!

ThunbergsAreGo

Idbatterim wrote: »

it doesnt need to go left, the analysis is wrong. Is abolishing usc up to a point and lpt a left wing strategy typically? I have no issue with centreist government, I just am not tolerating rip off housing and it is deliberate and intentional. They give away luxury housing for as good as free and hundreds of thousands of workers, many paying a marginal rate of FIFTY percent are meant to sit back, while they live in kips or at home and think "sure its grand"? LOL! we couldnt all get housing for a pittance years ago, how many who got a boom time loan , would qualify now? So we are rich enough to give away luxury housing for as good as free, but the working poor, paying for it all, should exist for decades, in the hope of clawing enough together, to live in some boring dump an hour outside of dublin? yeah right!

Abolishing USC and property tax would be right wing I'd have thought.

Or it if we are all being honest populist

is_that_so

garrettod wrote: »

Think the wheels came off there, a few years back... Bouncing in and out of the SDs really took from him, not sure we'll ever see him at his best again.

That has not gone down well locally I believe and he made quite the idiot of himself in the TV debate. According to some folks I know in Wicklow , his best is anywhere but in the Dail!

Idbatterim

this bull**** about extra taxes, a tiny percentage of the population, might have been worse off, even if you were earning 140k or whatever they wanted to increase income tax from. You were likely going to also benefit from the LPT abolition and usc reduction up to a reasonably high point.

Also many of those who earn that money, are thievening a living, politicians, those in RTE , many civil servants. They should be paying more, where you would have an issue is the private sector and the likes of doctors, consultants etc, then again, if they havent left this farcical tax and work environment here, they might stay...

The Rape of Lucretia

is_that_so wrote: »

It is their future to stand any chance to govern but they will have to leave the left and some of their hardcore people behind. If they do that right they'll gain far more. I do wish they'd stop calling us "citizens" though!

Nó need to move the the right at all. They don't need to alienate anyone. Just position themselves as the compétant, safe pair of hands, reasonable to all, with no axe to grind or scores to settle with any element of society, and they will generally govern.
The C&S Govt just finished could be looked back on as the start of a decades long FFFG government in various forms. C&S, 3 way coalition, 2 way coalition, merger, etc.
Which would reflect Ireland evolution to a country of mature politics, leaving the old treaty distinction as purely for the history books, while letting SF be the opposition, but, a permanent opposition, unable to really muster the left leaning numbers, in a majority centrist country, to ever really get close to power.

lawred2

BanditLuke wrote: »

Another blow for democracy if true.

Not really. FF/FG/Greens represent close to 60% of the first preference votes and delivers a slim majority in the Dail.

The Rape of Lucretia

lawred2 wrote: »

Not really. FF/FG/Greens represent close to 60% of the first preference votes and delivers a slim majority in the Dail.

And even higher than 60% if you take a divisor without the votes of cranks, opportunists, and vaudeville acts that are the independents, and very much the fly in the ointment that makes forming a majority of genuine TDs the difficulty it now is.
Before Ireland can restore a normal political choice, the people need to rid themselves of this self indulgent, self harming, penchant it has developed in the last 10 years, of spoiling their vote in that way.

(the people of Kerry are verging on needed a spell in a political re-education facility, for example. The people of Tip, should probably get a sin binning of a couple of elections, to reflect on their performance as voters).

LuasSimon

It’s only not fitting today’s Sunday independent has a continuation of the FG-FF gravy train for the rich ... and also has Ireland’s 250 richest people pull out .

Easy for many of these to be rich when they wont pay any tax in this country . Hard to know should these people be called Irish .

tipptom

lawred2 wrote: »

Not really. FF/FG/Greens represent close to 60% of the first preference votes and delivers a slim majority in the Dail.

Yeah,Two of the biggest parties in the state combined along with the Greens put together and the big twos vote in freefall election after election just about makes a government.
An absolute tsunami of change was voted for and admitted to by the leaders of FF/FG straight after the vote and they said they have to respect that but what do they do, only go back to the same.

The Greens will only suffer for whoring themselves out to these two again and now that the younger people are voting en masse against the big two and more importantly using their transfers for anybody but FF/FG this will also include the Greens.
Even if they do something in the next 5 years for the ordinary people instead of their crony's it will be seen as have only being forced to do it by SF and the electorate will see through it.

Its not a matter if,just when inside the next five years

ChikiChiki

Best outcome for SF in my opinion. They have 4 years to get ready to govern.

In the plus side, FFFG have their backs are to the wall and the might actually begin to treat the electorate with less contempt.

All round I think we have the best outcome. They need to get on with it and begin to lessen the hardship on the people that get up at 5am in the morning and actually are the powerhouse of our economy.

I would hope a new centre right party forms soon that will finally rid us of FF and FG.

ThunbergsAreGo

tipptom wrote: »

Yeah,Two of the biggest parties in the state combined along with the Greens put together and the big twos vote in freefall election after election just about makes a government.
An absolute tsunami of change was voted for and admitted to by the leaders of FF/FG straight after the vote and they said they have to respect that but what do they do, only go back to the same.

A tsunami that was given time to form a government and couldn't?

Seems more like a mid sized wave

LuasSimon

It’s only not fitting today’s Sunday independent has a continuation of the FG-FF gravy train for the rich ... and also has Ireland’s 250 richest people pull out .

Easy for many of these to be rich when they wont pay any tax in this country . Hard to know should these people be called Irish .

The Rape of Lucretia

tipptom wrote: »

An absolute tsunami of change was voted for and admitted to by the leaders of FF/FG straight after the vote and they said they have to respect that but what do they do, only go back to the same.

How can it be a tsunami of change, if 84% of the Dáil makeup was returned unchanged? Its the numbers, from the voters, that dictates it is back to the same.

From this seismic change narrative going around, an outsider would be forgiven for thinking SF had won 100 seats, and the combined FF, FG take of only 30.

Does this country still teach math in school?

tipptom

LuasSimon wrote: »

It’s only not fitting today’s Sunday independent has a continuation of the FG-FF gravy train for the rich ... and also has Ireland’s 250 richest people pull out .

Easy for many of these to be rich when they wont pay any tax in this country . Hard to know should these people be called Irish .

Would be interesting if we had a free and unbiased press to see how much these 250 really contribute to FF/FG.

But then again they cant even trust their own when the likes of Owen o Callaghan "donates" 10k to the FF party in Cork and Micky gives the check to the wife to run to Dublin with it and put it in to their personal account up there.
At least Pee Flynn and the wife kept it local and put the 50k in to their ac in Mayo.

The developers and Denis O Brien will be very pleased with FF/FG back in again.

Mortelaro

Idbatterim wrote: »

this bull**** about extra taxes, a tiny percentage of the population, might have been worse off, even if you were earning 140k or whatever they wanted to increase income tax from. You were likely going to also benefit from the LPT abolition and usc reduction up to a reasonably high point.

Also many of those who earn that money, are thievening a living, politicians, those in RTE , many civil servants. They should be paying more, where you would have an issue is the private sector and the likes of doctors, consultants etc, then again, if they havent left this farcical tax and work environment here, they might stay...

What's Bull is thinking if you want to spend 20 billion ond only have 11 billions that you wont need to dip into modest incomes soon enough into your regime to make up the shortfall having eventually been refused by the markets

SeaFields

I didn't want much from this election. Just for meehole not to be Taoiseach. Ahh well.

dabestman1

anyone with a spark cannot say that SF shirked their responsablity but when ff fg won't even talk to you, you're screwed. I would have loved to see sf go in to power and bring some real some change to housing and health beacause with ffg cosy relationship with vested interests such as landlords, developers, they don't have the will to change the status quo. Ah well,, in 5 years time we'll be talking about the issues and that won't change.

dxhound2005

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Best outcome for SF in my opinion. They have 4 years to get ready to govern.

This time it did not matter about the quality of candidate they were able to field. The Change hysteria just took over. But have they got anyone else worth electing from their stable of County Councillors, if people began to examine how good they might be in the Dail?

It is obvious that their Councillors did not impress the electorate in the 5 years after they got their impressive surge in 2014 when they went up from 54 to 159 seats. In 2019 back down to 81 seats. Don't count your chickens, because there is a vote out there which will desert every party if that is the current mood.

On another topic, I hope whoever is sorting out the housing will use some of the 200,000 empty properties, and cut down the need to build so many new ones. This will be a quicker solution, and better for the environment.

MadYaker

tipptom wrote: »

Yeah,Two of the biggest parties in the state combined along with the Greens put together and the big twos vote in freefall election after election just about makes a government.
An absolute tsunami of change was voted for and admitted to by the leaders of FF/FG straight after the vote and they said they have to respect that but what do they do, only go back to the same.

The Greens will only suffer for whoring themselves out to these two again and now that the younger people are voting en masse against the big two and more importantly using their transfers for anybody but FF/FG this will also include the Greens.
Even if they do something in the next 5 years for the ordinary people instead of their crony's it will be seen as have only being forced to do it by SF and the electorate will see through it.

Its not a matter if,just when inside the next five years

Last time I checked about 45% of voters voted to continue the status quo (FFG) and only about 22% voted for SF that's hardly voting for a "tsunami of change"

A SF led government would be unpopular from day one and even more unpopular by the end of their term if they manage to enact some of their dumber policies. If I was Mary Lou id be letting FF and FG spend another 5 years not solving anything. In the mean time play the victim (big bad FFG keeping us out of the government, the will of the people etc etc) basically more hurling from the ditch which SF are good at. Then contest a few more seats in the next election and come back with an even bigger chunk of the vote.

threeball

dxhound2005 wrote: »

This time it did not matter about the quality of candidate they were able to field. The Change hysteria just took over. But have they got anyone else worth electing from their stable of County Councillors, if people began to examine how good they might be in the Dail?

It is obvious that their Councillors did not impress the electorate in the 5 years after they got their impressive surge in 2014 when they went up from 54 to 159 seats. In 2019 back down to 81 seats. Don't count your chickens, because there is a vote out there which will desert every party if that is the current mood.

On another topic, I hope whoever is sorting out the housing will use some of the 200,000 empty properties, and cut down the need to build so many new ones. This will be a quicker solution, and better for the environment.

Unfortunately the standards required of social housing are far higher than that in private development so using the existing stock isn't possible as it falls short of the standard required and retrofitting is either no possible or too expensive. A crazy situation.

dxhound2005

threeball wrote: »

Unfortunately the standards required of social housing are far higher than that in private development so using the existing stock isn't possible as it falls short of the standard required and retrofitting is either no possible or too expensive. A crazy situation.

That's a shame. It means that families are forced to live in hotel rooms and hostels, while perfectly good houses are left empty. I expect a Change administration would sort it out as a priority.

The Rape of Lucretia

dabestman1 wrote: »

anyone with a spark cannot say that SF shirked their responsablity but when ff fg won't even talk to you, you're screwed.

They wouldn't have been screwed if they had won60, 70,80 seats. So the people said no thank you to an SF Govt.
FF and FG are much more politically close to each other than either is to SF. And they have no obligation to talk to them. That's quite apart from the terrorism, murder, knee capping, bombings, etc stench that SF brings with them.

The story is becoming one of victim syndrome : we got 23% of the seats but the 77% isn't bending over backwards to let us into Govt. Waa, Waa, boo hoo.
SF supporters are being downright childish now.

Idbatterim

Sf have been handed a gift the more I think about it, it wasnt like FF or FG said lets sit down and talk, and SF bottled it and people including people who voted for them, could have said "they bottled it" it will be seen as the establishment, seeking to resist change!

threeball

dxhound2005 wrote: »

That's a shame. It means that families are forced to live in hotel rooms and hostels, while perfectly good houses are left empty.

Yep but it's a self enforced situation with all these crazy standards put in place so there is a very low risk of a tenant suing the council. Driving up the costs significantly. Mad that a house you get for free us better built than the one you pay 3 or 400k for.

dxhound2005

Idbatterim wrote: »

Sf have been handed a gift the more I think about it, it wasnt like FF or FG said lets sit down and talk, and SF bottled it and people including people who voted for them, could have said "they bottled it" it will be seen as the establishment, seeking to resist change!

It has just saved us the spectacle of them having sham talks. It is clear that SF have no interest in going into government with FF or FG. They may say something different, but that is just telling lies.

Idbatterim

dxhound2005 wrote: »

That's a shame. It means that families are forced to live in hotel rooms and hostels, while perfectly good houses are left empty. I expect a Change administration would sort it out as a priority.

you would have to then wonder, if only the best will do for social housing, are they better off selling off this housing at market rate, to a private buyer... what is the point of it sitting there empty?!

Idbatterim

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Best outcome for SF in my opinion. They have 4 years to get ready to govern.

In the plus side, FFFG have their backs are to the wall and the might actually begin to treat the electorate with less contempt.

All round I think we have the best outcome. They need to get on with it and begin to lessen the hardship on the people that get up at 5am in the morning and actually are the powerhouse of our economy.

I would hope a new centre right party forms soon that will finally rid us of FF and FG.

AMEN!!!

tipptom

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

How can it be a tsunami of change, if 84% of the Dáil makeup was returned unchanged? Its the numbers, from the voters, that dictates it is back to the same.

From this seismic change narrative going around, an outsider would be forgiven for thinking SF had won 100 seats, and the combined FF, FG take of only 30.

Does this country still teach math in school?

You keep your little head stuck in the sand there.

37 seats out of 42,overall popular vote and brought in a host of non FG/FF TDs and could have had a good number of extra seats had they put on extra candidates.

This has made maasive headlines all over the world with the likes of ABC news calling it a "political earthquake".etc.
The most popular party in Ireland at the moment with meteor trajectory while FF/FG combined are in freefall and not just from this recent election.

They have slayed the two biggest party's who have ruled in corruption and for their crony's since the foundation of the state and who cannot even form a government between them now despite being FF/FG being funded by the developers and rich corrupt businessmen throughout who they beholden to and reward them time and time again

Quite apt with your name.
Look upon it as someone who has like Lucretia being raped and the people rebelling and going from a corrupt monarchy to a republic.

Idbatterim

dxhound2005 wrote: »

It has just saved us the spectacle of them having sham talks. It is clear that SF have no interest in going into government with FF or FG. They may say something different, but that is just telling lies.

speculation and you could be right. I think its a great result either way, I dont see how anyone can think, **** governance, which is what we have, benefits any one of us!

threeball

Idbatterim wrote: »

you would have to then wonder, if only the best will do for social housing, are they better off selling off this housing at market rate, to a private buyer... what is the point of it sitting there empty?!

They're often in areas that has no requirement/demand for private housing like Longford, Leitrim etc. or the cost to a developer to reinstate the properties doesn't stack up against market value. There's not many of these within commuting distance of Dublin afaik.

dxhound2005

Idbatterim wrote: »

you would have to then wonder, if only the best will do for social housing, are they better off selling off this housing at market rate, to a private buyer... what is the point of it sitting there empty?!

Prices are very low in most of the country, and sellers might be looking for too much. But there are thousands of houses for sale.

In Dublin house owners held on after the crash, waiting for prices to increase. That is part of the problem, where "accidental" landlords previously in negative equity, sold up whenever the price was right. And their tenants who had enjoyed seriously low rents after the crash, were left looking to rent again with seriously high rents being the norm.

Mortelaro

Idbatterim wrote: »

Sf have been handed a gift the more I think about it, it wasnt like FF or FG said lets sit down and talk, and SF bottled it and people including people who voted for them, could have said "they bottled it" it will be seen as the establishment, seeking to resist change!

You seem to be of the view that protest votes stay after the protest voters problems are solved
Good luck with that

threeball

tipptom wrote: »

You keep your little head stuck in the sand there.

37 seats out of 42,overall popular vote and brought in a host of non FG/FF TDs and could have had a good number of extra seats had they put on extra candidates.

This has made maasive headlines all over the world with the likes of ABC news calling it a "political earthquake".etc.
The most popular party in Ireland at the moment with meteor trajectory while FF/FG combined are in freefall and not just from this recent election.

They have slayed the two biggest party's who have ruled in corruption and for their crony's since the foundation of the state and who cannot even form a government between them now despite being FF/FG being funded by the developers and rich corrupt businessmen throughout who they beholden to and reward them time and time again

Quite apt with your name.
Look upon it as someone who has like Lucretia being raped and the people rebelling and going from a corrupt monarchy to a republic.

Except it's not though. If FF or FG had run less candidates they would have got more seats than they did but their over optimism cost them. Hindsight is 20:20 so claiming SF would have got more TDs if they ran more is no different than saying the others would have got more if they ran less. At the end of the day SF got 24% of the vote and the other two got 40 odd between them. Hardly a resounding call from the electorate for an SF government.

storker

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Best outcome for SF in my opinion. They have 4 years to get ready to govern.

In the plus side, FFFG have their backs are to the wall and the might actually begin to treat the electorate with less contempt.

All round I think we have the best outcome. They need to get on with it and begin to lessen the hardship on the people that get up at 5am in the morning and actually are the powerhouse of our economy.

I would hope a new centre right party forms soon that will finally rid us of FF and FG.

I think it's a win/win scenario for SF anyway. Either they get into power or they become the main opposition party which is fine too as it fits their long-game strategy. If FFG do form a coalition, the electorate will be watching both of them, together, as "the government". This this would be a first in Irish politics and would also be a big change...the most honesty we've seen from them in a very long time...and forced on them by SF to boot, heh, heh. Now if both don't get their act together, the electorate will be primed to punish both in equal measure, since the gombeen and sleeveen wings of FFG can't just play the usual game of "...they stuffed it up but we will do better..."

I'm not too sure about the stability angle though, with the FF/FG history of animosity and the tribal nature of both parties, this coalition could make an spectrum-wide left wing coalition look positively solid...

The Rape of Lucretia

tipptom wrote: »

37 seats out of 42,overall popular vote and brought in a host of non FG/FF TDs and could have had a good number of extra seats had they put on extra candidates.

Shudda, couldda, would da.

The Govt is formed according to the number of TDs that vote for a Taoiseach, not according to the % of run candidates who are elected. SF just doesn't have the forces (unarmed type) to muster support for MLM as Taoiseach. Yet its supporters behave as is the people already elected he PM.

suicide_circus

suicide_circus wrote: »

The problem with keeping SF to their natural environment of the opposition benches is that we'll never hear and end of it, old boys club conspiracy, #voteforchange, world's smallest violin etc etc

If SF actually got into government their cough would have been softened forevermore after they at very least failed to deliver the whackier parts of the manifesto and more than likely tanked the economy to some degree

Irelands National Debt:
2008: 117,107 millions
2018: 243,260 millions

https://countryeconomy.com/national-debt/ireland

What exactly is the definition of "tanking the economy"?

Doubling our national debt over 10 years would be pretty close to it for me.

lawred2

tipptom wrote: »

Yeah,Two of the biggest parties in the state combined along with the Greens put together and the big twos vote in freefall election after election just about makes a government.
An absolute tsunami of change was voted for and admitted to by the leaders of FF/FG straight after the vote and they said they have to respect that but what do they do, only go back to the same.

The Greens will only suffer for whoring themselves out to these two again and now that the younger people are voting en masse against the big two and more importantly using their transfers for anybody but FF/FG this will also include the Greens.
Even if they do something in the next 5 years for the ordinary people instead of their crony's it will be seen as have only being forced to do it by SF and the electorate will see through it.

Its not a matter if,just when inside the next five years

I don't disagree that there is an appetite for something different... But I also don't agree that FF/FG and the Greens forming a government is in any way anti democratic...

Fred Cryton

suicide_circus wrote: »

The problem with keeping SF to their natural environment of the opposition benches is that we'll never hear and end of it, old boys club conspiracy, #voteforchange, world's smallest violin etc etc

If SF actually got into government their cough would have been softened forevermore after they at very least failed to deliver the whackier parts of the manifesto and more than likely tanked the economy to some degree

That's a tempting thought, but the damage SF would do with any sort of ministerial power would be too great. Not worth it. A better strategy would be to keep them down and out and make it clear a vote for SF is a wasted vote as neither of the other big two will work with them.

threeball

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Irelands National Debt:
2008: 117,107 millions
2018: 243,260 millions

https://countryeconomy.com/national-debt/ireland

What exactly is the definition of "tanking the economy"?

Doubling our national debt over 10 years would be pretty close to it for me.

It's gone from 104% of GDP to a much more manageable 63% since FG came to power and has been reduced about 60 million. Not too bad considering the mess that we were climbing out of.

tipptom

threeball wrote: »

Except it's not though. If FF or FG had run less candidates they would have got more seats than they did but their over optimism cost them. Hindsight is 20:20 so claiming SF would have got more TDs if they ran more is no different than saying the others would have got more if they ran less. At the end of the day SF got 24% of the vote and the other two got 40 odd between them. Hardly a resounding call from the electorate for an SF government.

That's a bigger percentage than either FF or FG.

SF have a mandate to form a government but neither FF or FG will talk to them even though more people voted for SF and rejected Fg/FF.
They hold the most elected seats and they are the only large party that is in the ascendancy.

They are being shut out of govement by the same power hungry corrupt partys with a dying vote by the day who are afraid that SF will go in and start building houses and stop people dying on trollies.

They are the biggest party in the country and only going to get bigger.

Fred Cryton

Sarn wrote: »

All this would do is postpone the inevitable. SF’s share of the vote will increase while they are in opposition, with people saying a lack of democracy, despite democracy in action.

I'm not so sure. I think if anyone was going to vote SF, they would have done it now at the previous election. I can't see their first preference vote going much about 24% next time.



They will benefit from transfers next time due to running more candidates, but those gains will largely come at the expense of PBP, Greens and SocDems. In other words the overall "left alliance" may not increase its seats even if SF do.



As long as FF and FG state they won't go into coalition with SF, then next time the only option will be the same as now, an FF/FG coalition.

piplip87

Firstly those stating it's a blow for democracy are idiots. Looking back at previous general elections FF were the largest party in them all until 2011. Does that make us an undemocratic country ?

After every general election party leaders meet and form a government. Just because the one you voted for cannot form a government does not make the whole system wrong.....

Remember 25% of popular vote does not form a majority, FF and FG both ran on the premise they would not enter government with SF.

The main question I have is:

You lot have spent the last 40 years running down FF and FG. You will also admit you do not want them in government..... Then why do you want to go into government with them ?

threeball

tipptom wrote: »

That's a bigger percentage than either FF or FG.

SF have a mandate to form a government but neither FF or FG will talk to them even though more people voted for SF and rejected Fg/FF.
They hold the most elected seats and they are the only large party that is in the ascendancy.

They are being shut out of govement by the same power hungry corrupt partys with a dying vote by the day who are afraid that SF will go in and start building houses and stop people dying on trollies.

They are the biggest party in the country and only going to get bigger.

Both parties committed to not going in to government with SF before the election. Some people voted for both parties because of this promise yet you think they should just roll back on that to suit SF. It's time to get real. SF don't have the numbers, full stop.

And if you think SF or any other party will solve health you are only fooling yourself. It's not due to lack of money or government inaction that health is the way it is.

tipptom

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Shudda, couldda, would da.

The Govt is formed according to the number of TDs that vote for a Taoiseach, not according to the % of run candidates who are elected. SF just doesn't have the forces (unarmed type) to muster support for MLM as Taoiseach. Yet its supporters behave as is the people already elected he PM.

FF does not have the forces (unarmed type)to muster to have enough to form a government.

FG does not have the forces (unarmed type) to form a government.

The two most corrupt parties(unarmed type) in the history of the state cannot even cobble enough together to form a government.

They can sell their brand of corruption to the Greens to keep out SF to stop them solving what they couldn't do and what the majority of the people voted SF to do.