So according to the Sindo,its an FF-FG-Green-Grand coalition then ?

dxhound2005

Idbatterim wrote: »

Sf have been handed a gift the more I think about it, it wasnt like FF or FG said lets sit down and talk, and SF bottled it and people including people who voted for them, could have said "they bottled it" it will be seen as the establishment, seeking to resist change!

It has just saved us the spectacle of them having sham talks. It is clear that SF have no interest in going into government with FF or FG. They may say something different, but that is just telling lies.

Idbatterim

dxhound2005 wrote: »

That's a shame. It means that families are forced to live in hotel rooms and hostels, while perfectly good houses are left empty. I expect a Change administration would sort it out as a priority.

you would have to then wonder, if only the best will do for social housing, are they better off selling off this housing at market rate, to a private buyer... what is the point of it sitting there empty?!

Idbatterim

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Best outcome for SF in my opinion. They have 4 years to get ready to govern.

In the plus side, FFFG have their backs are to the wall and the might actually begin to treat the electorate with less contempt.

All round I think we have the best outcome. They need to get on with it and begin to lessen the hardship on the people that get up at 5am in the morning and actually are the powerhouse of our economy.

I would hope a new centre right party forms soon that will finally rid us of FF and FG.

AMEN!!!

tipptom

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

How can it be a tsunami of change, if 84% of the Dáil makeup was returned unchanged? Its the numbers, from the voters, that dictates it is back to the same.

From this seismic change narrative going around, an outsider would be forgiven for thinking SF had won 100 seats, and the combined FF, FG take of only 30.

Does this country still teach math in school?

You keep your little head stuck in the sand there.

37 seats out of 42,overall popular vote and brought in a host of non FG/FF TDs and could have had a good number of extra seats had they put on extra candidates.

This has made maasive headlines all over the world with the likes of ABC news calling it a "political earthquake".etc.
The most popular party in Ireland at the moment with meteor trajectory while FF/FG combined are in freefall and not just from this recent election.

They have slayed the two biggest party's who have ruled in corruption and for their crony's since the foundation of the state and who cannot even form a government between them now despite being FF/FG being funded by the developers and rich corrupt businessmen throughout who they beholden to and reward them time and time again

Quite apt with your name.
Look upon it as someone who has like Lucretia being raped and the people rebelling and going from a corrupt monarchy to a republic.

Idbatterim

dxhound2005 wrote: »

It has just saved us the spectacle of them having sham talks. It is clear that SF have no interest in going into government with FF or FG. They may say something different, but that is just telling lies.

speculation and you could be right. I think its a great result either way, I dont see how anyone can think, **** governance, which is what we have, benefits any one of us!

threeball

Idbatterim wrote: »

you would have to then wonder, if only the best will do for social housing, are they better off selling off this housing at market rate, to a private buyer... what is the point of it sitting there empty?!

They're often in areas that has no requirement/demand for private housing like Longford, Leitrim etc. or the cost to a developer to reinstate the properties doesn't stack up against market value. There's not many of these within commuting distance of Dublin afaik.

dxhound2005

Idbatterim wrote: »

you would have to then wonder, if only the best will do for social housing, are they better off selling off this housing at market rate, to a private buyer... what is the point of it sitting there empty?!

Prices are very low in most of the country, and sellers might be looking for too much. But there are thousands of houses for sale.

In Dublin house owners held on after the crash, waiting for prices to increase. That is part of the problem, where "accidental" landlords previously in negative equity, sold up whenever the price was right. And their tenants who had enjoyed seriously low rents after the crash, were left looking to rent again with seriously high rents being the norm.

Mortelaro

Idbatterim wrote: »

Sf have been handed a gift the more I think about it, it wasnt like FF or FG said lets sit down and talk, and SF bottled it and people including people who voted for them, could have said "they bottled it" it will be seen as the establishment, seeking to resist change!

You seem to be of the view that protest votes stay after the protest voters problems are solved
Good luck with that

threeball

tipptom wrote: »

You keep your little head stuck in the sand there.

37 seats out of 42,overall popular vote and brought in a host of non FG/FF TDs and could have had a good number of extra seats had they put on extra candidates.

This has made maasive headlines all over the world with the likes of ABC news calling it a "political earthquake".etc.
The most popular party in Ireland at the moment with meteor trajectory while FF/FG combined are in freefall and not just from this recent election.

They have slayed the two biggest party's who have ruled in corruption and for their crony's since the foundation of the state and who cannot even form a government between them now despite being FF/FG being funded by the developers and rich corrupt businessmen throughout who they beholden to and reward them time and time again

Quite apt with your name.
Look upon it as someone who has like Lucretia being raped and the people rebelling and going from a corrupt monarchy to a republic.

Except it's not though. If FF or FG had run less candidates they would have got more seats than they did but their over optimism cost them. Hindsight is 20:20 so claiming SF would have got more TDs if they ran more is no different than saying the others would have got more if they ran less. At the end of the day SF got 24% of the vote and the other two got 40 odd between them. Hardly a resounding call from the electorate for an SF government.

storker

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Best outcome for SF in my opinion. They have 4 years to get ready to govern.

In the plus side, FFFG have their backs are to the wall and the might actually begin to treat the electorate with less contempt.

All round I think we have the best outcome. They need to get on with it and begin to lessen the hardship on the people that get up at 5am in the morning and actually are the powerhouse of our economy.

I would hope a new centre right party forms soon that will finally rid us of FF and FG.

I think it's a win/win scenario for SF anyway. Either they get into power or they become the main opposition party which is fine too as it fits their long-game strategy. If FFG do form a coalition, the electorate will be watching both of them, together, as "the government". This this would be a first in Irish politics and would also be a big change...the most honesty we've seen from them in a very long time...and forced on them by SF to boot, heh, heh. Now if both don't get their act together, the electorate will be primed to punish both in equal measure, since the gombeen and sleeveen wings of FFG can't just play the usual game of "...they stuffed it up but we will do better..."

I'm not too sure about the stability angle though, with the FF/FG history of animosity and the tribal nature of both parties, this coalition could make an spectrum-wide left wing coalition look positively solid...

The Rape of Lucretia

tipptom wrote: »

37 seats out of 42,overall popular vote and brought in a host of non FG/FF TDs and could have had a good number of extra seats had they put on extra candidates.

Shudda, couldda, would da.

The Govt is formed according to the number of TDs that vote for a Taoiseach, not according to the % of run candidates who are elected. SF just doesn't have the forces (unarmed type) to muster support for MLM as Taoiseach. Yet its supporters behave as is the people already elected he PM.

suicide_circus

suicide_circus wrote: »

The problem with keeping SF to their natural environment of the opposition benches is that we'll never hear and end of it, old boys club conspiracy, #voteforchange, world's smallest violin etc etc

If SF actually got into government their cough would have been softened forevermore after they at very least failed to deliver the whackier parts of the manifesto and more than likely tanked the economy to some degree

Irelands National Debt:
2008: 117,107 millions
2018: 243,260 millions

https://countryeconomy.com/national-debt/ireland

What exactly is the definition of "tanking the economy"?

Doubling our national debt over 10 years would be pretty close to it for me.

lawred2

tipptom wrote: »

Yeah,Two of the biggest parties in the state combined along with the Greens put together and the big twos vote in freefall election after election just about makes a government.
An absolute tsunami of change was voted for and admitted to by the leaders of FF/FG straight after the vote and they said they have to respect that but what do they do, only go back to the same.

The Greens will only suffer for whoring themselves out to these two again and now that the younger people are voting en masse against the big two and more importantly using their transfers for anybody but FF/FG this will also include the Greens.
Even if they do something in the next 5 years for the ordinary people instead of their crony's it will be seen as have only being forced to do it by SF and the electorate will see through it.

Its not a matter if,just when inside the next five years

I don't disagree that there is an appetite for something different... But I also don't agree that FF/FG and the Greens forming a government is in any way anti democratic...

Fred Cryton

suicide_circus wrote: »

The problem with keeping SF to their natural environment of the opposition benches is that we'll never hear and end of it, old boys club conspiracy, #voteforchange, world's smallest violin etc etc

If SF actually got into government their cough would have been softened forevermore after they at very least failed to deliver the whackier parts of the manifesto and more than likely tanked the economy to some degree

That's a tempting thought, but the damage SF would do with any sort of ministerial power would be too great. Not worth it. A better strategy would be to keep them down and out and make it clear a vote for SF is a wasted vote as neither of the other big two will work with them.

threeball

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Irelands National Debt:
2008: 117,107 millions
2018: 243,260 millions

https://countryeconomy.com/national-debt/ireland

What exactly is the definition of "tanking the economy"?

Doubling our national debt over 10 years would be pretty close to it for me.

It's gone from 104% of GDP to a much more manageable 63% since FG came to power and has been reduced about 60 million. Not too bad considering the mess that we were climbing out of.

tipptom

threeball wrote: »

Except it's not though. If FF or FG had run less candidates they would have got more seats than they did but their over optimism cost them. Hindsight is 20:20 so claiming SF would have got more TDs if they ran more is no different than saying the others would have got more if they ran less. At the end of the day SF got 24% of the vote and the other two got 40 odd between them. Hardly a resounding call from the electorate for an SF government.

That's a bigger percentage than either FF or FG.

SF have a mandate to form a government but neither FF or FG will talk to them even though more people voted for SF and rejected Fg/FF.
They hold the most elected seats and they are the only large party that is in the ascendancy.

They are being shut out of govement by the same power hungry corrupt partys with a dying vote by the day who are afraid that SF will go in and start building houses and stop people dying on trollies.

They are the biggest party in the country and only going to get bigger.

Fred Cryton

Sarn wrote: »

All this would do is postpone the inevitable. SF’s share of the vote will increase while they are in opposition, with people saying a lack of democracy, despite democracy in action.

I'm not so sure. I think if anyone was going to vote SF, they would have done it now at the previous election. I can't see their first preference vote going much about 24% next time.



They will benefit from transfers next time due to running more candidates, but those gains will largely come at the expense of PBP, Greens and SocDems. In other words the overall "left alliance" may not increase its seats even if SF do.



As long as FF and FG state they won't go into coalition with SF, then next time the only option will be the same as now, an FF/FG coalition.

piplip87

Firstly those stating it's a blow for democracy are idiots. Looking back at previous general elections FF were the largest party in them all until 2011. Does that make us an undemocratic country ?

After every general election party leaders meet and form a government. Just because the one you voted for cannot form a government does not make the whole system wrong.....

Remember 25% of popular vote does not form a majority, FF and FG both ran on the premise they would not enter government with SF.

The main question I have is:

You lot have spent the last 40 years running down FF and FG. You will also admit you do not want them in government..... Then why do you want to go into government with them ?

threeball

tipptom wrote: »

That's a bigger percentage than either FF or FG.

SF have a mandate to form a government but neither FF or FG will talk to them even though more people voted for SF and rejected Fg/FF.
They hold the most elected seats and they are the only large party that is in the ascendancy.

They are being shut out of govement by the same power hungry corrupt partys with a dying vote by the day who are afraid that SF will go in and start building houses and stop people dying on trollies.

They are the biggest party in the country and only going to get bigger.

Both parties committed to not going in to government with SF before the election. Some people voted for both parties because of this promise yet you think they should just roll back on that to suit SF. It's time to get real. SF don't have the numbers, full stop.

And if you think SF or any other party will solve health you are only fooling yourself. It's not due to lack of money or government inaction that health is the way it is.

tipptom

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Shudda, couldda, would da.

The Govt is formed according to the number of TDs that vote for a Taoiseach, not according to the % of run candidates who are elected. SF just doesn't have the forces (unarmed type) to muster support for MLM as Taoiseach. Yet its supporters behave as is the people already elected he PM.

FF does not have the forces (unarmed type)to muster to have enough to form a government.

FG does not have the forces (unarmed type) to form a government.

The two most corrupt parties(unarmed type) in the history of the state cannot even cobble enough together to form a government.

They can sell their brand of corruption to the Greens to keep out SF to stop them solving what they couldn't do and what the majority of the people voted SF to do.

tipptom

piplip87 wrote: »

Firstly those stating it's a blow for democracy are idiots. Looking back at previous general elections FF were the largest party in them all until 2011. Does that make us an undemocratic country ?

After every general election party leaders meet and form a government. Just because the one you voted for cannot form a government does not make the whole system wrong.....

Remember 25% of popular vote does not form a majority, FF and FG both ran on the premise they would not enter government with SF.

The main question I have is:

You lot have spent the last 40 years running down FF and FG. You will also admit you do not want them in government..... Then why do you want to go into government with them ?

To use them as a mudflap.

MadYaker

tipptom wrote: »

FF does not have the forces (unarmed type)to muster to have enough to form a government.

FG does not have the forces (unarmed type) to form a government.

The two most corrupt parties(unarmed type) in the history of the state cannot even cobble enough together to form a government.

They can sell their brand of corruption to the Greens to keep out SF to stop them solving what they couldn't do and what the majority of the people voted SF to do.

The majority of the voters didn't vote for SF. Though you'd be forgiven for thinking that when you read some of the posts by SF supporters in this thread.

ThunbergsAreGo

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

A tsunami that was given time to form a government and couldn't?

Seems more like a mid sized wave

More like a ripple.

jprender

This arrangement is the best solution for the country by far.

Improvements in housing and health will occur, and the protest vote that went to SF will return to the two main parties.

NIMAN

When I hear the problems in Ireland discussed I always wonder that perhaps this is the level we are at.
And it doesn't get better than this. Is that possible?

With the money Gov has to spend, without taxing the workers more, then perhaps it is.
It is, after all, a middle ground.

Yes it might take you 3 years to get that op done, or 6 months to see that specialist, but we aren't the best and not the worst in terms of the world standings.

You could be in the US and never see anyone unless you can pay.

And yes you could be in some utopian place like Cuba or Sweden or wherever and get great treatment but we aren't these places.

We are where we are and maybe this is as good as it gets.
If you have a real serious illness, you'll get treatment, you'll jump the queues. If its something non-life threatening, maybe we just need to accept you can't get it done next week?

Loafing Oaf

Odds on this combo in to 5/4

threeball

MadYaker wrote: »

The majority of the voters didn't vote for SF. Though you'd be forgiven for thinking that when you read some of the posts by SF supporters in this thread.

I've seen alot of this tripe since the election. People before the election were lambasting the UK system of FPTP as being unrepresentative and undemocratic but since SF got the high first preference in our election it's now bring asked why we don't use FPTP as PR is apparently less democratic.
People also convincing themselves that vote % matters even when the number of candidates ran couldn't capitalise. And now somehow 24% should be more important than 22% and 23% even if the later two combine. It really is grasping at straws.

Mortelaro

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Irelands National Debt:
2008: 117,107 millions
2018: 243,260 millions

https://countryeconomy.com/national-debt/ireland

What exactly is the definition of "tanking the economy"?

Doubling our national debt over 10 years would be pretty close to it for me.

That would not be the conventional definition and the markets agree going on the price of Irish bonds
Doubling national debt in such extreme circumstances as the crash when its allowed to be spread out ad infinitum with low repayments is not a problem at all

NIMAN

i think people are commenting on the huge gains SF made.

But in Irish politics gains aren't so important as share I suppose.

Edit : I wonder how the seats would have stood had we compulsory voting and we could count in that 37% of people?

LeinsterDub

NIMAN wrote: »

i think people are commenting on the huge gains SF made.

But in Irish politics gains aren't so important as share I suppose.

Edit : I wonder how the seats would have stood had we compulsory voting and we could count in that 37% of people?

A larger portion of the 37% are dead or would be breaking the law voting as they are registered multiple times