The Left-Oriented Pendulum Of Irish Politics

LuckyLloyd

JoeFritzl wrote: »

I wholly disagree. I think the presidential election is the closest you will get to a true reflection of the Irish public's opinion. GE's are tragic; there's a lack of representation for everyone and a massive lack of quality options. 90% of the candidates in my area promise the same thing. People vote for the best candidate on a local level in the GE, and never think about party politics, because their vote probably won't make a different to the outcome of the local election, and certainly won't make a difference to the outcome of the general election and who becomes Taoiseach.

Really amazing that you can write the above, after we’ve just had an election where unknown SF candidates who couldn’t get a local council seat romped home to top the poll in numerous constituencies due to their parties manifesto and leader. Like this just happened two weeks ago.

Every sentence above is wrong, pretty much. Lack of representation? It’s a prtv system that gives Dail seats to every party or candidate with a base of support.

Your issue is that the candidates you want (Casey, O’Doherty, National Party, IFP) don’t have the requisite level of support. The exit poll also demonstrated that only a mere 1% of the electorate care about your key issue in the election. That is not the fault of the system or anything else. People know what your politics is about, it just doesn’t represent 98%+ of them.

Morzadec

Surprised another reason (as to the lack of a far right in Ireland) which hasn't been mentioned, which is that Far-right parties are usually nationalist parties, and (if we're talking about Europe), this goes hand in hand with imperialism and a sense of national superiority.

Due to our former status as a colony, the opposite is true here - nationalism has historically been from the standpoint of being oppressed as a colony and therefore more so left wing in nature (or at least highly aware of the type of thinking that says one race/country is superior to another, as Ireland was a victim of this). Our nationalism has historically been centred on the pursuit of equality, not of superiority.

So Sinn Fein (a left wing party) still get this nationalist vote. Sinn Fein historically have received their core support from the border counties and working class Dublin communities. I would guess that a big reason for this support is still to do with nationalism.

Far right parties like the National Party will struggle to make in-roads in these areas while Sinn Fein are still seen as the nationalist party, the anti-Brit party, the party of the RA etc...

Until nationalism in Ireland predominantly moves away from the United Ireland/Brit-bashing angle, and more towards the anti-immigration angle, the far right won't take hold.

It could happen though some day. Particularly if Sinn Fein got into power and made themselves unpopular, it's possible that the nationalist vote could shift towards these parties. Or likewise, if in the future a United Ireland does happen and if the transition is smooth, it's possible that this issue becomes less from-and-centre in the national psyche and Irish nationalism moves more so towards the right like it does in other countries

seamus

^^ This is a good point.

Irish nationalism comes from a place where the Irish were taught to believe that they were substandard and incapable of self-governance. Irish nationalism is effectively the belief that Irish have the ability and the right to self-governance within Ireland.

Whereas other forms of nationalism are typically rooted in the supremacy of ones nationality over all others.

kowloon

JoeFritzl wrote: »

But in doing so we are denying our youth of an opportunity to be cultured, to be exposed to all forms of politics as we, for some arrogant reason, deem them not to be trustworthy of handling such a dangerous species of politics.

Aren't the likes of the National Party against people being exposed to different cultures?

fly_agaric

I'm uncharitable but I do wonder if alot of the moaning about the lack of a "real" Irish right wing option I've read here (and in other political threads) comes from frustrated immigrants...sorry expats.
There's no "proper" one in Ireland like the Tories or (God forbid) the "GOP" they would plump for back home, one that would really, really stick it to the "unproductive" members of society and clamp down on immigrants (the wrong'uns, not good ones like them that improve the native peasant stock).
As a result they feel very disenfranchised and isolated politically. Hope it continues to be the case.

derfderf

Peregrinus wrote: »

I'm not sure that it is based on economics. UK public expenditure on healthcare is lower, per capita, than Ireland's. I don't see any reason to assume that an Irish NHS would cost more than the current setup. But it would challenge more vested interests; in particular the interests of those engaged in the provision of private healthcare. And I think the dominant parties in Ireland have been reluctant to attack what they see as the rights of those people.

I would have thought the excess cost of Irish healthcare is due to the stranglehold of the unions.

fly_agaric

JoeFritzl wrote: »

Yes he did, although you must appreciate that there are huge geographical aspects to this election and he didn't exactly follow through with a right-wing stance on most other issues. He ran in Dublin and Donegal from what I recall.

I don't know if pulling a stunt like that (name down in 2 constituencies) + treating it as a sort of a joke was a good look.
I know there maybe isn't the same community closeness in Dublin or expectations that a candidate must have some deep attachment to the constituency but it was still insulting to be chancing your arm like that IMO.

JoeFritzl wrote: »

You can't discount the fact he came second in the presidential election though; and it reflects the anger/frustration felt by people across Ireland with a lack of representation at Dáil level.

I think it may reflect the fact that the presidential election isn't very important and the field was thin due to expectation Higgins would run away with it.
Caseys' comments and all the media noise generated around him were a geegaw that attracted floating voters who did not like the incumbent.

JoeFritzl

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Really amazing that you can write the above, after we’ve just had an election where unknown SF candidates who couldn’t get a local council seat romped home to top the poll in numerous constituencies due to their parties manifesto and leader. Like this just happened two weeks ago.

Every sentence above is wrong, pretty much. Lack of representation? It’s a prtv system that gives Dail seats to every party or candidate with a base of support.

Your issue is that the candidates you want (Casey, O’Doherty, National Party, IFP) don’t have the requisite level of support. The exit poll also demonstrated that only a mere 1% of the electorate care about your key issue in the election. That is not the fault of the system or anything else. People know what your politics is about, it just doesn’t represent 98%+ of them.

I think exactly what you're arguing for is why people are annoyed with Sinn Féin.

"There is a mandate for change, if SF don't get in then it's not democracy!"

Despite FF/FG getting more votes than SF. If you're discounting other people's opinions then you're just blatantly ignorant.

JoeFritzl

fly_agaric wrote: »

I'm uncharitable but I do wonder if alot of the moaning about the lack of a "real" Irish right wing option I've read here (and in other political threads) comes from frustrated immigrants...sorry expats.
There's no "proper" one in Ireland like the Tories or (God forbid) the "GOP" they would plump for back home, one that would really, really stick it to the "unproductive" members of society and clamp down on immigrants (the wrong'uns, not good ones like them that improve the native peasant stock).
As a result they feel very disenfranchised and isolated politically. Hope it continues to be the case.

I don't hope this continues. At a time where people are claiming SF voters aren't getting represented at gov level, surely it's even more scandalous that right wing voters are completely under represented. To even claim that the likes of Gemma O'Doherty prove there's no appetite is ridiculous since she doesn't represent 99% of people on the far-right. We are blinded to the realities here; most of our right wing candidates suck, and they further cement this notion in people's minds that we don't deserve any form of representation ever. That's not democratic.

JoeFritzl

kowloon wrote: »

Aren't the likes of the National Party against people being exposed to different cultures?

Not sure what your point is. I'm not a member of this party and I don't stand by what they say but they're entitled to their free speech and it's great to see them express it. I only wish more people did so and then I might feel like there are some people on the right who truly represent MY opinion.

Peregrinus

JoeFritzl wrote: »

I don't hope this continues. At a time where people are claiming SF voters aren't getting represented at gov level, surely it's even more scandalous that right wing voters are completely under represented. To even claim that the likes of Gemma O'Doherty prove there's no appetite is ridiculous since she doesn't represent 99% of people on the far-right. We are blinded to the realities here; most of our right wing candidates suck, and they further cement this notion in people's minds that we don't deserve any form of representation ever. That's not democratic.

Your views are detached from reality, your policies are mad, your candidates are lousy and you end up with negligible electoral success. How is that "not democratic"? Surely it's the outcome you'd expect in a healthy, functioning democracy?

LuckyLloyd

JoeFritzl wrote: »

I don't hope this continues. At a time where people are claiming SF voters aren't getting represented at gov level, surely it's even more scandalous that right wing voters are completely under represented. To even claim that the likes of Gemma O'Doherty prove there's no appetite is ridiculous since she doesn't represent 99% of people on the far-right. We are blinded to the realities here; most of our right wing candidates suck, and they further cement this notion in people's minds that we don't deserve any form of representation ever. That's not democratic.

Then stand, as Bowman would have said to this type of nonsense.

The election results indicate there are a mere ~20k voters that think like you. If you feel the parties and politicians that are there are lacking, stand yourself or form a new party. Get the right type of focus on “mass” immigration and destabilising our democracy and you’ll probably garner plenty of funding from abroad!

fergus1001

is this another oh my god the shinners are coming thread ?

fergus1001

fergus1001 wrote: »

is this another oh my god the shinners are coming thread ?

Nope it's a why don't people vote for scrotes like Justin Barrett thread.

Despite the fact that they and what they stand for are known to the public, both through traditional media, social media and their shills on here, we're not cultured enough to vote for them.

JoeFritzl

DubInMeath wrote: »

Nope it's a why don't people vote for scrotes like Justin Barrett thread.

Despite the fact that they and what they stand for are known to the public, both through traditional media, social media and their shills on here, we're not cultured enough to vote for them.

No we discount their opinions because of prejudice, the exact same thing we accuse them of.

If you don't see the irony then I'm surprised.

Peregrinus

JoeFritzl wrote: »

No we discount their opinions because of prejudice, the exact same thing we accuse them of.

If you don't see the irony then I'm surprised.

We discount their opinions because (a) no opinion has a right to be taken seriously without being scrutinised, and (b) their opinions do not stand up to scrutiny.

That's not "prejudice", Joe.

JoeFritzl

JoeFritzl wrote: »

No we discount their opinions because of prejudice, the exact same thing we accuse them of.

If you don't see the irony then I'm surprised.

Nope, a scrote is a scrote such as Justin Barrett as identified by what they say and stand for, and it's well documented.

The irony of using the word prejudice when talking about him and similar political fellow travelers is funny however, given that this is a main pillar of what ye stand for.

nkl12xtw5goz70

derfderf wrote: »

Socially, none of our major parties are right wing. Some FF & FG TD's are conservative, but the parties themselves aren't.

It mystifies me how anyone can insist that either FG or FF is "right-wing."

FF presided over the biggest expansion of the public sector and the welfare state in the history of the country. FG continued to preside over a €20 billion welfare state, hitting workers earning over €36k with payroll taxes exceeding a marginal rate of 50% and turning the "temporary" Universal Social Charge into a permanent feature. Ireland's capital gains tax regime is one of the most punitive in the world.

All parties appease the public-sector unions with promises of "pay restoration" (i.e., bringing public-sector pay back to the unsustainably dizzying heights of 2008). Public-sector reform was a short-lived experiment that ended with government capitulation in the Croke Park Agreement. The health system is a dysfunctional mess because of the unions protecting too many middle management paper-pushers, but no politician has the backbone to do anything about it. Even RTE is getting bailed out so they can continue paying lavish salaries to their "stars."

None of this is exactly Thatcherite politics, or even close.

In social terms, all the major parties have supported the introduction of same-sex marriage, abortion on demand, and more liberal divorce laws. There's very little debate to be had on social issues anymore because politicians are tripping over one another to show how progressive they are.

I would characterize Irish politics as a spectrum from the center-left (FG/FF) to the far-left (SF/PBP) with debate largely hinging on how much taxing, spending, and regulating a government can do without driving the economy off the edge of a cliff. But there's no debate about shrinking the size of the state, meaningfully lowering taxes, wresting control of our public services back from the unions, and meaningfully reducing welfare dependency — all things a genuine right-wing party would be talking about.

JoeFritzl

Ellie Repulsive Scowl wrote: »

It mystifies me how anyone can insist that either FG or FF is "right-wing."

FF presided over the biggest expansion of the public sector and the welfare state in the history of the country. FG continued to preside over a €20 billion welfare state, hitting workers earning over €36k with payroll taxes exceeding a marginal rate of 50% and turning the "temporary" Universal Social Charge into a permanent feature. Ireland's capital gains tax regime is one of the most punitive in the world.

All parties appease the public-sector unions with promises of "pay restoration" (i.e., bringing public-sector pay back to the unsustainably dizzying heights of 2008). Public-sector reform was a short-lived experiment that ended with government capitulation in the Croke Park Agreement. The health system is a dysfunctional mess because of the unions protecting too many middle management paper-pushers, but no politician has the backbone to do anything about it. Even RTE is getting bailed out so they can continue paying lavish salaries to their "stars."

None of this is exactly Thatcherite politics, or even close.

In social terms, all the major parties have supported the introduction of same-sex marriage, abortion on demand, and more liberal divorce laws. There's very little debate to be had on social issues anymore because politicians are tripping over one another to show how progressive they are.

I would characterize Irish politics as a spectrum from the center-left (FG/FF) to the far-left (SF/PBP) with debate largely hinging on how much taxing, spending, and regulating a government can do without driving the economy off the edge of a cliff. But there's no debate about shrinking the size of the state, meaningfully lowering taxes, wresting control of our public services back from the unions, and meaningfully reducing welfare dependency — all things a genuine right-wing party would be talking about.

They're not even centre-right. They're very much center, and on social issues they are a left-wing party (FG in particular). Economically they might be centre-right, but certainly not "conservative".

Chips Lovell

The standard narrative around why we don't have an obvious left-right divide is that, around the time politics in other countries was coalescing around moderate left and right wing parties, we were still stuck in civil war politics.

There is a large element of truth to that, but it's not the whole truth either. Because, very quickly Fine Gael and Fianna Fail established identities that went beyond their side in the civil war. Fine Gael was the middle class party of professionals, business owners, and big landowners. Fianna Fail was the working man and small farmer's party. It ended up implementing a lot of the policies that socialist parties in other European countries would have introduced, such as clearing the slums of Dublin and building social housing, socialised healthcare, free education etc. It basically colonised a lot of the territory that a socialist party would ordinarily have occupied, leaving Labour very much Dublin and trade-union based.

Now, if you can call it socialism, it was a very Irish kind of socialism because, while in other countries, the church may have been aligned with the right, here it's strongest ally was Fianna Fail. Ditto with nationalism, usually the territory of the right.

Fianna Fail had pivoted again by the 1980s and became much more aligned with big business but at that stage, the two party divide had largely set in the national psyche. There was an potential realignment on the cards in 2011 when it looked like Fianna Fail could get wiped out but they managed to cling on just enough to rebuild.

We've a few moderately socialist parties such as Labour, SD and the Greens and a few faux-socialists such as Sinn Fein and PBP, but the left has never really taken off here.

JoeFritzl

Chips Lovell wrote: »

The standard narrative around why we don't have an obvious left-right divide is that, around the time politics in other countries was coalescing around moderate left and right wing parties, we were still stuck in civil war politics.

There is a large element of truth to that, but it's not the whole truth either. Because, very quickly Fine Gael and Fianna Fail established identities that went beyond their side in the civil war. Fine Gael was the middle class party of professionals, business owners, and big landowners. Fianna Fail was the working man and small farmer's party. It ended up implementing a lot of the policies that socialist parties in other European countries would have introduced, such as clearing the slums of Dublin and building social housing, socialised healthcare, free education etc. It basically colonised a lot of the territory that a socialist party would ordinarily have occupied, leaving Labour very much Dublin and trade-union based.

Now, if you can call it socialism, it was a very Irish kind of socialism because, while in other countries, the church may have been aligned with the right, here it's strongest ally was Fianna Fail. Ditto with nationalism, usually the territory of the right.

Fianna Fail had pivoted again by the 1980s and became much more aligned with big business but at that stage, the two party divide had largely set in the national psyche. There was an potential realignment on the cards in 2011 when it looked like Fianna Fail could get wiped out but they managed to cling on just enough to rebuild.

We've a few moderately socialist parties such as Labour, SD and the Greens and a few faux-socialists such as Sinn Fein and PBP, but the left has never really taken off here.

The point is that the right hasn't taken off here either.

The left is represented. The right is not. You even said so yourself that FF/FG historically implement left-wing policies. Regardless of what you may think; your policies dictate where you lie on the left-right spectrum and it puts them very close to the center.

Chips Lovell

JoeFritzl wrote: »

You even said so yourself that FF/FG historically implement left-wing policies.

I said Fianna Fail did. And I also pointed out why it would be difficult to label them socialists.

flazio

Aountu, Renua and the National Party are there to be voted for. But no-one is voting for them. You can't just ask another party to start leaning more to the right if it's not what they stand for.

JoeFritzl

flazio wrote: »

Aountu, Renua and the National Party are there to be voted for. But no-one is voting for them. You can't just ask another party to start leaning more to the right if it's not what they stand for.

Aontú is left-wing. It comes from Sinn Fein...

ELM327

JoeFritzl wrote: »

Aontú is left-wing. It comes from Sinn Fein...

Fiscally left and socially right


The worst of both..

LuckyLloyd

JoeFritzl wrote: »

Aontú is left-wing. It comes from Sinn Fein...

Renua are definitely right
As are the National Party
As are the Irish Freedom Party
As is Gemma O’Doherty
As is Peter Casey

About 20k votes between them all.

The PDs had a brief moment in the sun until they needed to disband due to lack of electoral support.

You can continue running away from the substantive point all you like by picking at bits and pieces of people’s posts but the reality is that the choice is there, has been there before, and the electorate are rejecting it in full knowledge of what they’re rejecting.

Your posts are nonsense and have been robustly rebutted imo.

rogue-entity

JoeFritzl wrote: »

I don't hope this continues. At a time where people are claiming SF voters aren't getting represented at gov level, surely it's even more scandalous that right wing voters are completely under represented.

If right-wing voters are "completely under represented" that is through no fault or failing of our democratic process and representative voting system - it is because there are simply not enough folks with your particular viewpoint who vote in accordance with it.

JoeFritzl wrote: »

To even claim that the likes of Gemma O'Doherty prove there's no appetite is ridiculous since she doesn't represent 99% of people on the far-right.

There are many individuals with a far-right viewpoint that make similar statements, and express similar viewpoints. Views that fall into the right-authoritarian quadrant on the political compass.

JoeFritzl wrote: »

...most of our right wing candidates suck, and they further cement this notion in people's minds that we don't deserve any form of representation ever. That's not democratic.

Or could it be that we don't live in an isolation bubble, are aware of the history of:

• Our own country, and our history with England.
• Europe, and the atrocities committed during the second world war.
• The goings-on in countries like the United States, Russia, China etc

Could it be that, we know what right-wing and far-right-wing views (particularly socially) are and that a majority of voters here have no desire to support those policies? There's nothing undemocratic about the people exercising their vote, particularly in a system that doesn't enable 'tyranny of the minority' unlike in the UK.

JoeFritzl wrote: »

...they're entitled to their free speech and it's great to see them express it. I only wish more people did so and then I might feel like there are some people on the right who truly represent MY opinion.

On a side note here, Ireland (and a majority of countries it seems) do not share America's 'vision' of unfettered free speech:

Bunreacht na h&#201 wrote: »

Art. 40.6.1° The State guarantees liberty for the exercise of the following rights, subject to public order and morality: –

i) The right of the citizens to express freely their convictions and opinions.

The education of public opinion being, however, a matter of such grave import to the common good, the State shall endeavour to ensure that organs of public opinion, such as the radio, the press, the cinema, while preserving their rightful liberty of expression, including criticism of Government policy, shall not be used to undermine public order or morality or the authority of the State.

The publication or utterance of seditious or indecent matter is an offence which shall be punishable in accordance with law.

Additionally, the right to 'free speech' does not include a right to an audience or to guaranteed elected representation.

JoeFritzl wrote: »

No we discount their opinions because of prejudice, the exact same thing we accuse them of.
If you don't see the irony then I'm surprised.

We discount their opinions because we find them disagreeable, they have the right to express them but not the right to an audience - that is - they can express their views and we can choose not to listen. Equally, they have the right to stand for election to the Dáil but that doesn't mean we have to vote for them and see them elected to office.

With respect, it appears you are upset because folks with your viewpoint are in a niche and don't carry political weight that might lend to government policy aligning with your views, intents and desires. In a democracy, you accept that you will not always have things the way you want.

JoeFritzl wrote: »

The point is that the right hasn't taken off here either.
The left is represented. The right is not. You even said so yourself that FF/FG historically implement left-wing policies. Regardless of what you may think; your policies dictate where you lie on the left-right spectrum and it puts them very close to the center.(sic)

If you feel that there is no party that represents your views then you are free to stand for election yourself, or to form a new party that aligns closer to your political viewpoint.

I do believe the right have the equal opportunity for representation in Dáil, but that voters either hold different views or voted otherwise for reasons only known to themselves.

Computer Science Student

Can't help but feel like people are missing the OP's point, intentionally or otherwise.

While it is very easy to say that the people have rejected right-wing politics in GE's and that these results point to a lack of appetite for such politics, the reality is they haven't been offered a viable option yet. This is because the political landscape in Ireland seeks to reject anyone that leans remotely in this direction at every single opportunity. Our national broadcaster is a perfect example of this. Not only does it pedal left-wing agendas like it is nobody's business, any right-wing opinions that manage to slip through the censors and into a live broadcast are quickly demonized and branded racist, or whatever other adjective necessary to let the public know that these are the bad guys. It's not just the media that is making sure Ireland remains as left-wing as possible, there is an alarming attack culture emerging on colleges throughout Ireland, spurred in-part by social media and general moral evangelism. Trust me, if you could see how hostile college societies and campuses are towards anything right, it'd be no surprise to you that a viable politician for this bracket has not emerged yet. To be right, you need to want to embrace the role of a villain.

JoeFritzl

Computer Science Student wrote: »

Can't help but feel like people are missing the OP's point, intentionally or otherwise.

While it is very easy to say that the people have rejected right-wing politics in GE's and that these results point to a lack of appetite for such politics, the reality is they haven't been offered a viable option yet. This is because the political landscape in Ireland seeks to reject anyone that leans remotely in this direction at every single opportunity. Our national broadcaster is a perfect example of this. Not only does it pedal left-wing agendas like it is nobody's business, any right-wing opinions that manage to slip through the censors and into a live broadcast are quickly demonized and branded racist, or whatever other adjective necessary to let the public know that these are the bad guys. It's not just the media that is making sure Ireland remains as left-wing as possible, there is an alarming attack culture emerging on colleges throughout Ireland, spurred in-part by social media and general moral evangelism. Trust me, if you could see how hostile college societies and campuses are towards anything right, it'd be no surprise to you that a viable politician for this bracket has not emerged yet. To be right, you need to want to embrace the role of a villain.

Yes, this is what most people fail to realize. I think anyone who understands what this user is saying probably understands that right-wing politics is forcefully suppressed in this country. It's a fact really, some people might be in denial on this or whatever but anyone who tries to start a right-wing movement is open to an disproportionate amount of judgement/obstacles in achieving political acknowledgement. The O'Doherty's and Barrett's of this world are perfect examples, people make a mockery out of their opinions and try to say that these people in particular represent the entirety of right-wing politics. That would be the equivalent of me saying that nobody should ever vote for SF because they are on the same side as Lloyd Barrett and other looneys.

JoeFritzl

JoeFritzl wrote: »

Yes, this is what most people fail to realize. I think anyone who understands what this user is saying probably understands that right-wing politics is forcefully suppressed in this country. It's a fact really, some people might be in denial on this or whatever but anyone who tries to start a right-wing movement is open to an disproportionate amount of judgement/obstacles in achieving political acknowledgement. The O'Doherty's and Barrett's of this world are perfect examples, people make a mockery out of their opinions and try to say that these people in particular represent the entirety of right-wing politics. That would be the equivalent of me saying that nobody should ever vote for SF because they are on the same side as Lloyd Barrett and other looneys.

The O'Doherty and Barretts of this world act like certifiable lunatics and bitter little failures trying to make everyone else the same as them and just getting more wound up when they repeatedly fail to do so.

The simple truth of the matter is that most Irish people don't like them and anything that they stand for hence their election results.

They and their shills can't seem to convince the majority of the population that they are worth listening to because they are one trick ponies and have a habit of what could be politely described as a playing fast and loose with facts like statements that they and other right wing politics are being suppressed, they are not, it's just that they are not wanted.