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The Left-Oriented Pendulum Of Irish Politics
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Social issues are virtually gone now Ireland and don't define parties I believe. Aontu and other nut job groupings are the exception and they received less than 4% of the national vote. There will always be a place in a parliament for these views, but they are now firmly a minority view. A tiny minority.
Most of the public don't care anymore about these issues.
Right wing parties support the social welfare system, support free provision of health to the poorest, support free education etc.
The problem is that they don't support them enough, they will cut corners and definitely make cuts in these areas in times of recession.0 -
DubInMeath wrote: »The O'Doherty and Barretts of this world act like certifiable lunatics and bitter little failures trying to make everyone else the same as them and just getting more wound up when they repeatedly fail to do so.
The simple truth of the matter is that most Irish people don't like them and anything that they stand for hence their election results.
They and their shills can't seem to convince the majority of the population that they are worth listening to because they are one trick ponies and have a habit of what could be politely described as a playing fast and loose with facts like statements that they and other right wing politics are being suppressed, they are not, it's just that they are not wanted.
Says who? Because some people certainly want them.
Regardless of this I think it's a shame that a right-wing party doesn't exist in Ireland for me to vote for. Those names you have mentioned are extreme right. There is no moderate version of right-wing politics and this means that a large portion of the electorate go unrepresented.
You can gloss over Casey's presidential result all you like, but there's no hiding the thirst of the Irish population for better options.0 -
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LuckyLloyd wrote: »Renua are definitely right
As are the National Party
As are the Irish Freedom Party
As is Gemma O’Doherty
As is Peter Casey
About 20k votes between them all.
The PDs had a brief moment in the sun until they needed to disband due to lack of electoral support.
You can continue running away from the substantive point all you like by picking at bits and pieces of people’s posts but the reality is that the choice is there, has been there before, and the electorate are rejecting it in full knowledge of what they’re rejecting.
Your posts are nonsense and have been robustly rebutted imo.
Reality is the choice is there? There was no choice in my constituency for the GE. I had no representation and it was the same for a lot of people. The only time we all were represented by the same candidate was the PE where Casey got 25% of the votes!
You can continue running away from the substantive point all you like by picking at bits and pieces of people's posts but the reality is that the choice is not there, has not been before and the electorate is screaming out for better representation.0 -
Says who? Because some people certainly want them.
Regardless of this I think it's a shame that a right-wing party doesn't exist in Ireland for me to vote for. Those names you have mentioned are extreme right. There is no moderate version of right-wing politics and this means that a large portion of the electorate go unrepresented.
You can gloss over Casey's presidential result all you like, but there's no hiding the thirst of the Irish population for better options.
You mentioned the likes of Barrett as being right wing parties being suppressed, and now your claiming that they are extreme right, you opened the discussion using them as examples of right wing parties also.
So your a member of the green party but feel that they aren't right wing enough?0 -
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There's no hiding the fact that the thirst of the Irish population for "better options" seems to pretty small. There may have been no right-of-FF/FG option in your own constituency, but parties to the right of FF/FG presumably run in the constituencies where they think they can garner the most support, and in those constituncies they performed dismally. We have no reason at all to think that right-of-FF/FG parties would have done well in constituencies where their own perception was that it was better not to bother running.Says who? Because some people certainly want them.
Regardless of this I think it's a shame that a right-wing party doesn't exist in Ireland for me to vote for. Those names you have mentioned are extreme right. There is no moderate version of right-wing politics and this means that a large portion of the electorate go unrepresented.
You can gloss over Casey's presidential result all you like, but there's no hiding the thirst of the Irish population for better options.
If you consider FF and FG to be not right wing at all, and the other right-wing parties already mentioned to be "extreme right", the conclusion must be that you are looking for a party to the right of FF/FG, but to the left of NP/IFP/etc. Your thesis seems to be that such a party is "forcefully suppressed" by the fact that those expressing beliefs of this kind are "ridiculed".
But this is nonsense. NP, IFP, etc are certainly riduculed - including by you - but it does not follow that a less ridiculous party, to the right of FF/FG but not of the extreme right, would also be ridiculed, and certainly not that ridicule has prevented such a party from forming and offering itself to the electorate. You can hardly ridicule a party that doesn't exist and isnt' seeking to form itself.
We also cannot overlook the fact that we did, of course, have such a party - the Progressive Democrats. It was a significant presence on the political scene for about 25 years, and had a considerable degree of influence. And, while it did eventually disappear, its disappearance had nothing to to with ridicule. I don;t remember the PDs ever encountering anything like ridicule, and I have no reason to suppose that a similar right-of-FF/FG party today would encounter ridicule today.
It might help if you could point to a political party in another European country occupying the space on the left-right spectrum that you believe is being forcefully suppressed by ridicule in Ireland.0 -
SF are consistently ridiculed, attacked and belittled and topped the poll.0
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Computer Science Student wrote: »Our national broadcaster is a perfect example of this. Not only does it pedal left-wing agendas like it is nobody's business, any right-wing opinions that manage to slip through the censors and into a live broadcast are quickly demonized and branded racist, or whatever other adjective necessary to let the public know that these are the bad guys.Yes, this is what most people fail to realize. I think anyone who understands what this user is saying probably understands that right-wing politics is forcefully suppressed in this country.
This is quite far-fetched. You're essentially arguing that there is a vast, hitherto undisclosed conspiracy to suppress a hidden right-wing constituency.
Let's pick that apart a little and imagine, for example, that RTE does have an agenda to suppress right wing voices (and forget that a not inconsiderable number of supporters of Sinn Fein, a nominally left-wing party, alleged that RTE was doing a number on them during the election campaign). Why would the privately owned media collude in this? What do they have to gain? Especially considering that much if it is a.) hostile to RTE, resentful of the subsidies it gets and b.) controlled by big business.
And even if privately owned media were colluding with RTE, why doesn't somebody else spot this gap in the market for right-wing messages and fill it, such as we've seen happen in other countries such as the U.S. or Spain? We have a free press and a free market. If there is a public appetite for more right wing thought, that appetite will be met.0 -
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Hard to take an argument seriously when it effectively boils down to the "silent majority" conspiracy. That conveniently unprovable bias, whereupon there's a great and vast collusion between the media and/or other parties to suppress some supposed roiling mass of voters, keening for national privatisation, more punitive criminal system, or whatever "right wing" policies the OP is looking for that aren't "Extreme right" (even though as already pointed out, the OP has flip flopped on this point). In fact I'd go so far as to say anyone who talks of "forceful suppression" of a vague political leaning is simply embracing self-indulgent hyperbole.
Maybe I missed it, but maybe if the OP better defined what exact "right wing" policies they're looking for, it might help define what kind of party is missing from Irish politics. If it has been mentioned, I'm all ears 'cos otherwise it reads like a moan amounting to "I don't have a party that meets my precise preferences, therefore the system is broken". Between this and those suggesting PR is broken 'cos they don't like Sinn Fein, there's a lot of ... singular theories out there.
Other posters have already said this, but if there was a need for a right-wing party further from the centre, then this gap would have been filled by now. Nature abhors a vacuum, and similarly, politics doesn't allow for a gap in representation. Our FF/FG axis has generally floated about the centre for the last few decades, vacillating between slightly left-of-centre or slightly right-of-centre, depending on leadership, economy or mood of the nation. Renua felt like a pretty good example of trying to fill a gap supposed as existing - the right wing, rural vote supposedly ignored by 'dem city folk - yet there's not a single shred of evidence that this demographic ever existed, certainly based on Renua's non-performance.
Peter Casey doesn't prove anything, one swallow doesn't mean a summer, and one noisy chancer who latched onto a single controversial topic (that isn't even that "right wing" by any sober economic definition; travellers are a uniquely Irish issue) for publicity and his own self aggrandisement, doesn't show there's an untapped demographic out there. Indeed, his subsequent attempts to run for public office have shown him to be a paper tiger of the highest order, with no actual substance beyond the tedious "businessman tries to do politics" stunt.0 -
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Sorry but most right wing parties are personality driven first until they find the right cords to go to the masses (see AFD in Germany, Swedish Democrats in Sweden etc.). Here's how I'd run it if I was a right wing wannabie leader. First of all you need to find the right thing to blame, usually this is either EU or immigration in some form; in Ireland I'd go with Travellers. Let's be honest here travelling bashing sometimes appear to be a national past time and with them being dressed wrong, and it's being generally known that they are "all criminals living on society and getting wellfare money" etc. they are a perfect target to blame. Cherry pick stories of things done wrong, squatting etc. So now we have the who to blame for what's wrong. You can score bonus points here if you include brown people who are Muslims as well but that's something you'd include more as a side note; focusing on what most people knows ("criminal travellers who live off social wellfare squatting on private land stealing stuff") simply resonate better; brown Muslims are simply not common enough to have the same ring to it.Surprised another reason (as to the lack of a far right in Ireland) which hasn't been mentioned, which is that Far-right parties are usually nationalist parties, and (if we're talking about Europe), this goes hand in hand with imperialism and a sense of national superiority.
Secondly you need to get the people who are to vote for you; so you not only can tell the unemployed, and dissatisfied that the travelers are to blame (who of course EU stopped Ireland from blocking them at the border, to kick them out, to check their ID etc. because hand waving EU regulation without being specific and of course link them to Romania etc. to show how poor they live there as the reason why they are sucking Ireland dry instead) but if they were not here then not only could you raise social wellfare, build more houses for the poor, give better pensions and of course better healthcare. All the countless tens of billions that are drained because of this criminal element and how you would reinvest them directly into services that benefit the group. Play up the scary criminal element along with raised social wellfare/pensions/healthcare/housing card (no need to provide an actual budget mind you; those tens of billions would be there if the travellers disappeared would simply happen). Throw in tough on criminals, deportation for foreigners who rape women etc. to show you're tough on security as well. Ireland is a unsafe banana republic after all because all those soft politicans coddling the travellers / raping immigrants (and push the fact it's mainly men coming over who are young and hormone driven and being from Africa clearly they have not learned basic rules such as the Irishmen has etc.).
Now you're almost there but any self respecting right wing politician has to be anti EU to some extent because it's what enables everything going wrong after all (see UK press for precedent). Hence you go after the third group talking about how EU should be limited in their control, how EU (read Germany/France) wants to steal our companies by raising our company taxes, reduce our ability to set up research funding, provide grants in poor areas, stop immigration etc. Once again reality does not really matter as much as you hitting on the common topics people have heard and repeat it often enough to become "truth"; if challenged on it turn the questions around and ask the reporter why do they want EU to control the Irish tax system etc. It's an easy way to push media around these days without having to answer actual questions.
I'd give it maximum of a decade if they got a good charismatic leader who can talk to sit on at least 10% of the vote in a GE. That's the reason there's no right wing party in Ireland; it has not had the right leader with the right message; nothing else imo.0 -
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I sincerely hope you’re wrong there Nody, but a worthy thought experiment nonetheless.0
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So do I of course but in general looking at the right wing parties in the world they tend to have a few items in common:LuckyLloyd wrote: »I sincerely hope you’re wrong there Nody, but a worthy thought experiment nonetheless.- Populist policies that tend to be very simple and lack actual details to be doable
- Anti some group or other often from another country
- Strong charismatic leader who takes them mainstream
- Happy to be available to the press to tell them the message (see Farage always in every show etc.)
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Nobody is Ireland is 'pretty far left', at least nobody that's going to get elected anyway.
Not a single candidate or party is advocating the introduction of communism into Ireland.
Sinn Fein for all their talk are still a very conservative party socially. Even Michael Noonan described Sinn Fein as the most conservative party in Dail Eireann.0 -
Sorry but most right wing parties are personality driven first until they find the right cords to go to the masses (see AFD in Germany, Swedish Democrats in Sweden etc.). Here's how I'd run it if I was a right wing wannabie leader. First of all you need to find the right thing to blame, usually this is either EU or immigration in some form; in Ireland I'd go with Travellers. Let's be honest here travelling bashing sometimes appear to be a national past time and with them being dressed wrong, and it's being generally known that they are "all criminals living on society and getting wellfare money" etc. they are a perfect target to blame. Cherry pick stories of things done wrong, squatting etc. So now we have the who to blame for what's wrong. You can score bonus points here if you include brown people who are Muslims as well but that's something you'd include more as a side note; focusing on what most people knows ("criminal travellers who live off social wellfare squatting on private land stealing stuff") simply resonate better; brown Muslims are simply not common enough to have the same ring to it.
Secondly you need to get the people who are to vote for you; so you not only can tell the unemployed, and dissatisfied that the travelers are to blame (who of course EU stopped Ireland from blocking them at the border, to kick them out, to check their ID etc. because hand waving EU regulation without being specific and of course link them to Romania etc. to show how poor they live there as the reason why they are sucking Ireland dry instead) but if they were not here then not only could you raise social wellfare, build more houses for the poor, give better pensions and of course better healthcare. All the countless tens of billions that are drained because of this criminal element and how you would reinvest them directly into services that benefit the group. Play up the scary criminal element along with raised social wellfare/pensions/healthcare/housing card (no need to provide an actual budget mind you; those tens of billions would be there if the travellers disappeared would simply happen). Throw in tough on criminals, deportation for foreigners who rape women etc. to show you're tough on security as well. Ireland is a unsafe banana republic after all because all those soft politicans coddling the travellers / raping immigrants (and push the fact it's mainly men coming over who are young and hormone driven and being from Africa clearly they have not learned basic rules such as the Irishmen has etc.).
Now you're almost there but any self respecting right wing politician has to be anti EU to some extent because it's what enables everything going wrong after all (see UK press for precedent). Hence you go after the third group talking about how EU should be limited in their control, how EU (read Germany/France) wants to steal our companies by raising our company taxes, reduce our ability to set up research funding, provide grants in poor areas, stop immigration etc. Once again reality does not really matter as much as you hitting on the common topics people have heard and repeat it often enough to become "truth"; if challenged on it turn the questions around and ask the reporter why do they want EU to control the Irish tax system etc. It's an easy way to push media around these days without having to answer actual questions.
I'd give it maximum of a decade if they got a good charismatic leader who can talk to sit on at least 10% of the vote in a GE. That's the reason there's no right wing party in Ireland; it has not had the right leader with the right message; nothing else imo.
It's pretty simple and many would fall for it
* Pick an enemy..travellers or immigrants the easy targets
* Drum up nationalism to excessive levels. Ireland has lost it's way etc
* Advocate for much stronger punishments including jailing people without trail
* Our laws aren't tough enough and Gardai need to crack down with zero tolerance
* RTE and national media is biased and need to be completely revamped
* Feminism is evil and must be outlawed. Women need to know their role. Any woman attempting to be resist will be shunned and shamed
* Ireland needs to find religion again
* a message that the security of the state is at risk, ties in with #1. Ports, airports, train stations, shopping centres would see massive rise in security procedures entering and exiting
* We need to protect corporate power at all cost
* Unions and things like minimum wage are killing the country and must be abolished
* Climate change is a hoax. Scientists, actors, artists et al are fools and shouldn't be listened to
People might not agree with everything but alot of folks will agree with some and be dragged in. As you said all that's missing is the charismatic leader to pull it off.
Casey wasn't that yet he garnered a ton of votes initially.0 -
rossie1977 wrote: »It's pretty simple and many would fall for it
* Pick an enemy..travellers or immigrants the easy targets
* Drum up nationalism to excessive levels. Ireland has lost it's way etc
* Advocate for much stronger punishments including jailing people without trail
* Our laws aren't tough enough and Gardai need to crack down with zero tolerance
* RTE and national media is biased and need to be completely revamped
* Feminism is evil and must be outlawed. Women need to know their role. Any woman attempting to be resist will be shunned and shamed
* Ireland needs to find religion again
* a message that the security of the state is at risk, ties in with #1. Ports, airports, train stations, shopping centres would see massive rise in security procedures entering and exiting
* We need to protect corporate power at all cost
* Unions and things like minimum wage are killing the country and must be abolished
* Climate change is a hoax. Scientists, actors, artists et al are fools and shouldn't be listened to
People might not agree with everything but alot of folks will agree with some and be dragged in. As you said all that's missing is the charismatic leader to pull it off.
Casey wasn't that yet he garnered a ton of votes initially.
As a ideologically right wing person with a social left outlook, a lot of that would appeal to me.0 -
Ellie Repulsive Scowl wrote: »In social terms, all the major parties have supported the introduction of same-sex marriage, abortion on demand, and more liberal divorce laws. There's very little debate to be had on social issues anymore because politicians are tripping over one another to show how progressive they are.
Above all else, FG and (especially) FF are populist. They sensed what way the wind was blowing and didn't want to find themselves on the wrong side of history.Ellie Repulsive Scowl wrote: »I would characterize Irish politics as a spectrum from the center-left (FG/FF) to the far-left (SF/PBP) with debate largely hinging on how much taxing, spending, and regulating a government can do without driving the economy off the edge of a cliff. But there's no debate about shrinking the size of the state, meaningfully lowering taxes, wresting control of our public services back from the unions, and meaningfully reducing welfare dependency — all things a genuine right-wing party would be talking about.
It just looks that way from your own far-right position. FF and FG do, and have always done, whatever will get them the largest number of votes. And reducing the size of the state (i.e. cutting public services) and cracking down on workers' rights, whilst simultaneously punishing those unlucky enough not to have jobs... would make Ireland a very bad place to live for most of us. You have to learn to accept that, politically speaking, you're on a different planet from most people.
I mean, I'd like all industry to be nationalised and run democratically for the benefit of society as a whole, and I'd introduce gulags for the likes of you. But I'm mature enough to accept that that's never going to happen. Not because everyone else is too right-wing, but because the idea itself is maybe just slightly too far to the left.0 -
No Green candidatess running in your constituency then? Peter Casey doesn't represent the Green Party, btw.Reality is the choice is there? There was no choice in my constituency for the GE. I had no representation and it was the same for a lot of people. The only time we all were represented by the same candidate was the PE where Casey got 25% of the votes!
Quote from the OP in another thread:
Would that be the same Green Party you describe as being left wing in this thread's OP?I am actually a member of the Green Party...
This "we" you go onto speak about is it in reference to the Green Party or your apparent right-wing views that you feel are not represented?0 -
Not sure what your point is. I'm not a member of this party and I don't stand by what they say but they're entitled to their free speech and it's great to see them express it. I only wish more people did so and then I might feel like there are some people on the right who truly represent MY opinion.
They are absolutely entitled to their free speech, although FG having their way might significantly curtail it. But the irony of a party who want Ireland to become a nationalist monoculture being considered part of a diverse cultural patchwork is not lost on me.0 -
The Presidential Election is not a political barometer.You can gloss over Casey's presidential result all you like, but there's no hiding the thirst of the Irish population for better options.
A scary thought indeed.As a ideologically right wing person with a social left outlook, a lot of that would appeal to me.0 -
Says who? Because some people certainly want them.
Regardless of this I think it's a shame that a right-wing party doesn't exist in Ireland for me to vote for. Those names you have mentioned are extreme right. There is no moderate version of right-wing politics and this means that a large portion of the electorate go unrepresented.
You can gloss over Casey's presidential result all you like, but there's no hiding the thirst of the Irish population for better options.
+1 , the way people treat the pendulum is odd , they point to gemma odoherty and say theres no appeal for the right. It would be exactly like me pointing to rita harrold and saying theres no appeal for the left. The right and its principals are not rejected by Ireland , the far right and religious right absolutely are and deservedly so.0 -
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rogue-entity wrote: »The Presidential Election is not a political barometer.
A scary thought indeed.
It's the only political barometer; remains unchanged from the gerrymandering effect.0 -
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It's the only political barometer; remains unchanged from the gerrymandering effect.
Peter Casey ran two subsequent elections, local and general, failing each time with increasingly underwhelming results. His popularity in the presidential elections can be attributed to many things, but ascribing it as representative of some "right wing" demographic, waiting for a political Messiah to appear, is reaching.
And you're going to have to show some actual stats or data to throw out talk of gerrymandering. Otherwise, this is fantasist territory0 -
hotmail.com wrote: »Social issues are virtually gone now Ireland and don't define parties I believe. Aontu and other nut job groupings are the exception and they received less than 4% of the national vote. There will always be a place in a parliament for these views, but they are now firmly a minority view. A tiny minority.
Most of the public don't care anymore about these issues.
Right wing parties support the social welfare system, support free provision of health to the poorest, support free education etc.
The problem is that they don't support them enough, they will cut corners and definitely make cuts in these areas in times of recession.
The Tory party won an election a few months ago with a huge majority by running to the left on economics and right on social issues such as immigration, crime (hello pritti) and brexit.
A pollster said and he was been crude here,,the people that were targeted were those who wanted to hang the pedos and fund the NHS.
I think Aontu would try to appeal to those socially conservative and financially lefty type people but unsure there is a huge audience over here for it and they don't have the leader to smash the glass ceiling.0 -
HalloweenJack wrote: »No Green candidatess running in your constituency then? Peter Casey doesn't represent the Green Party, btw.
Quote from the OP in another thread:
Would that be the same Green Party you describe as being left wing in this thread's OP?
This "we" you go onto speak about is it in reference to the Green Party or your apparent right-wing views that you feel are not represented?
You're taking content from another thread.
I'm a member of the GP and I attend their meetings but I do so out of a lack of choices really. I don't represent the party, and I don't like the fact that they're left-wing, I joined them because I am interested in climate change but fundamentally disagree with them on housing, etc.0
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