Is Universal Basic Income the way forward?

kippy

Kamila Panicky Pentagon wrote: »

An impractical calculaiton of course, but even then... 60K to every single (family) on the planet, instantly puts an 'absoloute end' to problems such as: i) global poverty ii) education access iii) fammine iv) housing v) global warming vi) pollution vii) health etc etc etc

Nevemind a jump start to new global economy and industrial reveloution etc. The closure of global tax-havens and avoidance will become a yearly factor, even if below the recommended 40% average higher tax rates. They will still seek to earn as they can still keep 60% of it.

Anyway the world's 1% that own roughly 50% of resources won't by itself pay for UBI.
UBI will largely pay for itself, through the reasons already given.

Why would anyone want to get qualified and work in education - why would anyone want to be educated?
40% of the figures makes the 20K a lot less and last for a lot shorter a time.

What were the reasons again?

Sorry - just to be clear here, you are talking about UBI - where everyone, no matter their circumstances gets a "basic" income of say $325 per week and are free and able to "top" it up with a career or other income?

4068ac1elhodqr

kickfacer wrote: »

With so many experts everywhere, I wonder why it has taken so long for this concept to take off?

The reason so many politicans are taking it under serious consideration, is out of the pending necessity.
It's a step up from minimum wage and other legislation, before all that became a global 'trend', how did it ever take so long to take off?

kippy wrote: »

Why would anyone want to get qualified and work in education - why would anyone want to be educated?

The human condition.

kickfacer wrote: »

What were the reasons again?

Read the previous page.

kickfacer wrote: »

Sorry - just to be clear here, you are talking about UBI - where everyone, no matter their circumstances gets a "basic" income of say $325 per week and are free and able to "top" it up with a career or other income?

Correct, also if you've got 6 kids, two horses, couple of pitbulls and smoking habit, imagine you'll actually be worse off on just that 325pwk, imagine that.

The big difference is Mary or Joe are now very able (and motivated) to go out and work when/where/as much as they want. To buy that bigger tv or whatever, and all without any concern of getting dragged in: to fill in forms and attend an interview, threatend with loosing all benefits, in regard this new found income.

tayto lover

PanMyHans wrote: »

That’s a dreadful thing to say.

How would you treat the “won’t work” members of society?
Those able-bodied members of society who have never held a job and who never will?

Ipso

Kamila Panicky Pentagon wrote: »

An impractical calculaiton of course, but even then... 60K to every single (family) on the planet, instantly puts an 'absoloute end' to problems such as: i) global poverty ii) education access iii) fammine iv) housing v) global warming vi) pollution vii) health etc etc etc

Nevemind a jump start to new global economy and industrial reveloution etc. The closure of global tax-havens and avoidance will become a yearly factor, even if below the recommended 40% average higher tax rates. They will still seek to earn as they can still keep 60% of it.

Anyway the world's 1% that own roughly 50% of resources won't by itself pay for UBI.
UBI will largely pay for itself, through the reasons already given.

Is this UBI or EGTSI (everyone gets the same income)?

kippy

Ipso wrote: »

Is this UBI or EGTSI (everyone gets the same income)?

UBI according to the poster earlier.

Ush1

No it's a silly idea and would only serve rapid inflation.

Ipso

kippy wrote: »

UBI according to the poster earlier.

Still don’t get how it solves every problem, like class, income disparity etc

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Ush1 wrote: »

No it's a silly idea and would only serve rapid inflation.

Hyper-inflation is the only real negative risk, but even that can be managed and planned for using fiscal tools. Also any moderate inflation rise, would be a small price for massive rise in national productivity, poverty reduction and quality of life increase.

Ipso wrote: »

Still don’t get how it solves every problem, like class, income disparity etc

Don't think anyone claimed it would diminish all class structures, but it would help dissolve (some) aspiring, poverty classes. All except for Mary with 12kids, 1leg, 2horses and few 'emotional suport' dogs. currently on various messy tax credits and benefits (not to mention administration of these). She'll get the single fixed 'Universal' amount of UBI, like anyone else would.

Franco Baresi52 wrote: »

Stupid idea, it would wither cause inflation or act as a disincentive to be productive, which results in a lower standard of living generally.

The total polar opposite. If Joe or Jane are able to do some odd jobs or jump on the (ever-growing) zero-contract part-time flexi-hour workforce to earn a few extra bob at total zero risk of being dragged into the nearest dole office, they will.

Ush1

Kamila Panicky Pentagon wrote: »

Hyper-inflation is the only real negative risk, but even that can be managed and planned for using fiscal tools. Also any moderate inflation rise, would be a small price for massive rise in national productivity, poverty reduction and quality of life increase.


Don't think anyone claimed it would diminish all class structures, but it would help dissolve (some) aspiring, poverty classes. All except for Mary with 12kids, 1leg, 2horses and few 'emotional suport' dogs. currently on various messy tax credits and benefits (not to mention administration of these). She'll get the single fixed 'Universal' amount of UBI, like anyone else would.


The total polar opposite. If Joe or Jane are able to do some odd jobs or jump on the (ever-growing) zero-contract part-time flexi-hour workforce to earn a few extra bob at total zero risk of being dragged into the nearest dole office, they will.

It's not a risk, it's a guarantee.

4068ac1elhodqr

Franco Baresi52 wrote: »

In order to raise the standard of living the population needs to become more productive. If taxes are exorbitant people have less incentive to start new business or to invest in new projects.

Productivity is guaranteed.
Once you offer someone laden on benefits, a 100% risk free opportunity (without penalty), to earn/study/enterprise more, to buy their bigger tv or save for a holiday etc.

Corp (business) tax is already one of the lowest in the world, indeed many view this low-rate as a close to tax-haven status, throw in in dutch/double sandwiches, and various loopholes and sweetners, then 'effective' biz tax is well below what it should be.

Many investments/saving/projects/pensions could remain low-tax.
There is a difference between sitting idle on millions (avoidance), and actual (active) working capital or investments which would avoid 'inactive' taxation.

Of course it's the future.

Automation is destroying the need for human workers. Countries are being deprived of funds from the lack of income tax from automated workers.

It's an absolute nonsense idea that there's enough work out there for everyone. We'll just wait for automation to hit white collar jobs and we'll have universal income soon enough.

Samuel T. Cogley

People think it'll be like Star Trek when actually it'll be like the Expanse.

iamtony

Bernie Sanders talked about this on joe Rogan. He reckons all that is needed to fund it over their is 1cent off every wall street trade. He explains the whole thing well and it does genuinely seem like a good plan for the future with automation.
Listen to the podcast before dismissing it entirely.

Strumms

UBI... equal reward for unequal effort, unfair, unworkable.

What would be the incentive be for Jane, who has always been wanting to be a pilot and invested in the region of 13,000 euros over a couple of years on training to obtain her private pilot license, knowing that she for that big investment of her time, cash she saved and effort and sacrifice can only obtain the same wage as Tanya, stacking shelves in Tesco.

Mark, training to be a doctor, a man who sacrificed, studied and will literally save lives year on year, month to month, day to day will be simply earning the same as Bob, driving a van for DHL.

No, sorry, the more effort, study, intelligence, difference you make in life should be rewarded proportionally, **** this....’every human is entitled to the same lark’...they are if they put in the same application, same levels of responsibility etc...

4068ac1elhodqr

Strumms wrote: »

UBI... equal reward for unequal effort, unfair, unworkable.

Nonsense. The more you earn/work the more you keep. If anything this UBI provides a security net for anyone trapped in poverty to escape it.

Strumms wrote: »

What would be the incentive be for Jane, who has always been wanting to be a pilot and invested in the region of 13,000 euros over a couple of years on training to obtain her private pilot license, knowing that she for that big investment of her time, cash she saved and effort and sacrifice can only obtain the same wage as Tanya, stacking shelves in Tesco.

She could earn 100k+ as a pilot, stacking shevles well not so much, maybe not even near 1/3rd, even when including UBI, (which a pilot would also receive to spend as they choose).

Strumms wrote: »

Mark, training to be a doctor, a man who sacrificed, studied and will literally save lives year on year, month to month, day to day will be simply earning the same as Bob, driving a van for DHL.

Again your notions of salaires are twisted.

Even if someone managed to earn 40-50k driving a transit van about (doubt they would), they'd pay off a chunk in income tax when UBI is factored in. Besides van jobs will vanish (on motorways anyway, thanks to ai) during the 2030's. What's Bob gonna do then, shout at the clouds? A Dr/Consultant in Ireland is perhaps one of the best paid people on the planet from the outset.

Strumms wrote: »

No, sorry, the more effort, study, intelligence, difference you make in life should be rewarded proportionally, **** this....’every human is entitled to the same lark’...they are if they put in the same application, same levels of responsibility etc...

Again you misunderstand that UBI does not mean everyone gets the same final income. It's only a universal baseline (to aspire upwards from). Indeed having a load of kids, and various welfare credits/habits would result in being worse off.

iamtony

Strumms wrote: »

UBI... equal reward for unequal effort, unfair, unworkable.

What would be the incentive be for Jane, who has always been wanting to be a pilot and invested in the region of 13,000 euros over a couple of years on training to obtain her private pilot license, knowing that she for that big investment of her time, cash she saved and effort and sacrifice can only obtain the same wage as Tanya, stacking shelves in Tesco.

Mark, training to be a doctor, a man who sacrificed, studied and will literally save lives year on year, month to month, day to day will be simply earning the same as Bob, driving a van for DHL.

No, sorry, the more effort, study, intelligence, difference you make in life should be rewarded proportionally, **** this....’every human is entitled to the same lark’...they are if they put in the same application, same levels of responsibility etc...

Em you know it's not communism we're talking about right? People can earn what they want, same as before.

tayto lover

tayto lover wrote: »

How would you treat the “won’t work” members of society?
Those able-bodied members of society who have never held a job and who never will?

They get the same as everyone else. No free medical cards, extra money for more kids, rent allowance etc. So most of them would be worse off than now and motivated to work.

Samuel T. Cogley

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

People think it'll be like Star Trek when actually it'll be like the Expanse.

The majority of people on Earth in The Expanse do not work. Getting a job is a desirable luxury.

4068ac1elhodqr

iamtony wrote: »

Bernie Sanders talked about this on joe Rogan. He reckons all that is needed to fund it over their is 1cent off every wall street trade. He explains the whole thing well and it does genuinely seem like a good plan for the future with automation.
Listen to the podcast before dismissing it entirely.

Sounds like Bernie is stealing Yangs ideas, he (Yang also did podcast on JoeRogan) ran his whole campaign on UBI, he wanted to give every American $1k per month over 4yrs.

Only dropped out last week, still ran a good campaign. Imagine if you asked the averge citizen on the streets of Detroit/rustbelt what they thought about the offer, they wouldn't even be aware of it - due to the Trump vs Biden media show.

One thing that would pay for UBI is a ton of government red tape around jobseekers and the dole would disappear overnight. No need to means test.

Strumms

Strumms wrote: »

UBI... equal reward for unequal effort, unfair, unworkable.

What would be the incentive be for Jane, who has always been wanting to be a pilot and invested in the region of 13,000 euros over a couple of years on training to obtain her private pilot license, knowing that she for that big investment of her time, cash she saved and effort and sacrifice can only obtain the same wage as Tanya, stacking shelves in Tesco.

Mark, training to be a doctor, a man who sacrificed, studied and will literally save lives year on year, month to month, day to day will be simply earning the same as Bob, driving a van for DHL.

No, sorry, the more effort, study, intelligence, difference you make in life should be rewarded proportionally, **** this....’every human is entitled to the same lark’...they are if they put in the same application, same levels of responsibility etc...

This isn't UBI. UBI is where everyone gets say 200 a week and then get paid for working. If they can't work they still get the 200. So Mark will still make a lot more than Bob. Big difference for Bob is he'll be much better off than Onslow, who spends his day scratching his bollix in front of the TV, unlike the current system where Onslow is better off, assuming they both have kids.

Or Ruttiger, who has a brilliant business idea, but can't afford to give up his crappy job. With UBI he can take some time out and work on his idea,.and change the world.

For people not getting it, it isn't that everyone is paid the same, it's that everyone gets a cheque every month from the government regardless of income, there is no welfare, and otherwise everything is the same as before. You work 40 hours you get paid 40 hours on top of UBI.

Obviously taxes would need to be rejiggled to make it work. We already have tax free allowances, you could scrap those for a start.

If it makes people feel better you could disqualify people on over 200k / year.

Samuel T. Cogley

Deleted User wrote: »

The majority of people on Earth in The Expanse do not work. Getting a job is a desirable luxury.

My point exactly - if all the doom and gloom on automation becomes a thing then this Marxist utopia some think it's going to become won't be very utopian.

4068ac1elhodqr

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

My point exactly - if all the doom and gloom on automation becomes a thing then this Marxist utopia some think it's going to become won't be very utopian.

Problem is the future (progress) can't be stopped.

Thus the only solution is to prepare for it now I.e. opportunity of inclusiveness and upskilling.

Otherwise millions of unskilled sunndely become out of work, and start scaling BillGates walls. The (tax-avoiding) rich will move 'gated communities' and ultimate chaos kicks in, when they send out the latest Boston Dynamic robot dog to chase them.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Or Ruttiger, who has a brilliant business idea, but can't afford to give up his crappy job. With UBI he can take some time out and work on his idea,.and change the world.

For people not getting it, it isn't that everyone is paid the same, it's that everyone gets a cheque every month from the government regardless of income, there is no welfare, and otherwise everything is the same as before. You work 40 hours you get paid 40 hours on top of UBI.

Obviously taxes would need to be rejiggled to make it work. We already have tax free allowances, you could scrap those for a start.

If it makes people feel better you could disqualify people on over 200k / year.

You could tax it in such a way that people making ludicrous sums of money would essentially be not getting UBI but they would be getting to treat everyone as equals

Samuel T. Cogley

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

My point exactly - if all the doom and gloom on automation becomes a thing then this Marxist utopia some think it's going to become won't be very utopian.

Getting kinda off topic here but... I haven't read the books but from the TV show Earth looks pretty utopian. They're so rich and productive that there isn't enough jobs to go around.

topmanamillion

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Of course it's the future.

Automation is destroying the need for human workers. Countries are being deprived of funds from the lack of income tax from automated workers.

It's an absolute nonsense idea that there's enough work out there for everyone. We'll just wait for automation to hit white collar jobs and we'll have universal income soon enough.

That's a long way off.Automation has been going on since the industrial revolution of the early 1800s. Still plenty of jobs going.
Current unemployment is less than 5%. Levels on a par with the Celtic tiger years.

Making work pay is the key. A family with a few children may well be better off with one parent staying home on the dole instead of working and having to pay childcare costs.

I'd be far more interested in exploring the possibility of subsidised/free childcare for people paying PRSI than any universal wage.

topmanamillion

topmanamillion wrote: »

That's a long way off.Automation has been going on since the industrial revolution of the early 1800s. Still plenty of jobs going.
Current unemployment is less than 5%. Levels on a par with the Celtic tiger years.

Making work pay is the key. A family with a few children may well be better off with one parent staying home on the dole instead of working and having to pay childcare costs.

I'd be far more interested in exploring the possibility of subsidised/free childcare for people paying PRSI than any universal wage.

You think the cost of kids ends after childcare?
LOL try 20 more years

Ubbquittious

We have had universal basic income for years. Only to the yanks is this a new and revolutionary concept

topmanamillion

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You think the cost of kids ends after childcare?
LOL try 20 more years

Nope. Just think putting €2,000 a month in childcare costs back into the pockets of every family with 2 young children would be very welcome.

Rodin

PanMyHans wrote: »

Benefits:
1. Remove the unfair stigma from unemployed.
2. It will enable society to pursue endeavours outside of work
3. People will be happier
4. Classism and sexism will be reduced.

It's an awful idea.
We give too much free money away as it is.

citysights

It’s an interesting idea. I think we’d see inflation though, in a mini example on children’s allowance day shops can put their prices up as people have the cash to spend.

And if it does create inflation won’t people become wage slaves again.Now I don’t fully get the idea but who will be funding our public services, schools, hospitals, transport networks etc if people decide they don’t want to bother working?

And if automation removes a heap of jobs won’t many people be trapped on this minimum payment with no hope of every getting more? Would they be happy? Loads of questions around it..

4068ac1elhodqr

topmanamillion wrote: »

That's a long way off.Automation has been going on since the industrial revolution of the early 1800s. Still plenty of jobs going.

It's irresponsible, even lazy to compare other events (centuries ago), to this coming 4th industrial revolution. Automation coupled with ai, robotics and a shed load of other technologies firmly puts many (unskilled) human assets to waste.

Today for example, the uk's HS (Patel) announced an end to any unskilled migration (even from eu) and employers to prepare for a “significant change” with rules designed to shift the economy away from relying on cheap labour from Europe towards a “high-wage, high skill, high productivity” future.

topmanamillion

Kamila Panicky Pentagon wrote: »

It's irresponsible, even lazy to compare other events (centuries ago), to this coming 4th industrial revolution. Automation coupled with ai, robotics and a shed load of other technologies firmly puts many (unskilled) human assets to waste.

Today for example, the uk's HS (Patel) announced an end to any unskilled migration (even from eu) and employers to prepare for a “significant change” with rules designed to shift the economy away from relying on cheap labour from Europe towards a “high-wage, high skill, high productivity” future.

I think this seems to be what you would like to happen after watching iRobot and Terminator a few too many times.
I'd take whats coming out of the UK about "high paid" jobs with a pinch of salt. The complete opposite is likely to happen there. It's popular in the UK to say you're a company against immigration. Reality is there's likely to be sustained migration into the UK and an ever expanding low paid workforce.

Franco Baresi52

Franco Baresi52 wrote: »

They said the same thing many times over the past centuries. The jobs will be created, new businesses will be created. It will be more viable to start your own business as automation will make it more efficient to run a business.

What does a middle aged trucker reskill to? Set up his own trucker business?

j8wk2feszrnpao

Patel's comments were garbage. Automation isn't going to stack shelves, build houses or work on farms, not without a ridiculous amount of investment that businesses cannot afford. The offshore "low skilled jobs" that many businesses in the UK rely on may be replaced with a degree of automation, but not entirely.

What we need is star trek replicators so everyone has needs taken care of

4068ac1elhodqr

topmanamillion wrote: »

I'd take whats coming out of the UK about "high paid" jobs with a pinch of salt. The complete opposite is likely to happen there.

I'd take your comments with a very large dose of salt, this is actual firm legislation, that is being introduced.
If you don't meet the points requirement, you don't get in, simple really.
Throwing salt won't help at airport arrivals, if coming in from Timbuktu.

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Patel's comments were garbage. Automation isn't going to stack shelves, build houses or work on farms, not without a ridiculous amount of investment that businesses cannot afford. The offshore "low skilled jobs" that many businesses in the UK rely on may be replaced with a degree of automation, but not entirely.

Gov policy dictates business law, not the otherway around.

Amazons automated warehouses, with shrinking human input. Humans will be removed completely within 10yrs. Currently they have 200,000 mobile robots worldwide.
https://www.vox.com/recode/2019/12/11/20982652/robots-amazon-warehouse-jobs-automation
Despite the fancy tv ads from Amzn, humans are a pain for them, always getting injured or falling over and calling in sick n' tired.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51539329

Amazons human-free automated shops:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-amazon-com-store/amazons-automated-grocery-store-of-the-future-opens-monday-idUSKBN1FA0RL

The increase of robots on farms, replacing humans:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/13/science/farm-agriculture-robots.html

Closer to home, a chap in Waterford has installed x5 of the automated DeLaval VMS V300 milking systems. Will pay for itself within 10yrs.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/farming/co-waterford-farm-has-one-of-largest-robotic-systems-930791.html

Once a 'bot (operating 24/7) makes sense on a balance sheet, it will replace the human asset for good e.g. for just 8k you can now buy EVA, with 6 moving joints, these smaller, ever-cheaper robots, will gradually replace humans.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51442445

Antares35

Provided we can also have "universal basic education", "universal basic competence and skillset", "universal basic experience" and "universal basic type of work".

Otherwise, why would someone study hard, invest in their education, work hard and work smart in order to get a better job... just to be on the same pay as everyone else?

Antares35

Antares35 wrote: »

Provided we can also have "universal basic education", "universal basic competence and skillset", "universal basic experience" and "universal basic type of work".

Otherwise, why would someone study hard, invest in their education, work hard and work smart in order to get a better job... just to be on the same pay as everyone else?

That's not how UBI works.

kippy

Antares35 wrote: »

Provided we can also have "universal basic education", "universal basic competence and skillset", "universal basic experience" and "universal basic type of work".

Otherwise, why would someone study hard, invest in their education, work hard and work smart in order to get a better job... just to be on the same pay as everyone else?

Being on the same income as everyone else globally or event nationally is complete nonsense in fairness and those suggesting it is the way forward have absolutely no grasp on reality.
UBI however where everyone gets a set amount of income no matter what their circumstance has some merit but it is nowhere near as easy to fund or straightforward to implement as some would suggest.
I'd be for a UBI of roughly €200 per week in Ireland - Everyone over 18 gets that no matter their circumstances and nothing else.

Antares35

Deleted User wrote: »

That's not how UBI works.

People who work and study and commit time and effort to get ahead will be no better off than those who do SFA? Or is it a basic income for everyone with the option to earn more if you have a decent work ethic?

iamtony

Antares35 wrote: »

People who work and study and commit time and effort to get ahead will be no better off than those who do SFA? Or is it a basic income for everyone with the option to earn more if you have a decent work ethic?

Everything would stay the same, you and I would keep our jobs and still get universal basic income. The same as everyone else in the country. It just provides a better standard of living for those in lower paid jobs. So if you were on the dole you would get 300 a week. If you had a job you get 300 plus your salary.

Antares35

iamtony wrote: »

Everything would stay the same, you and I would keep our jobs and still get universal basic income. The same as everyone else in the country. It just provides a better standard of living for those in lower paid jobs. So if you were on the dole you would get 300 a week. If you had a job you get 300 plus your salary.

And where would all this free money come from?

Cyclepath

I'm in favour of UBI for people who actually work. But we have that already in the form of minimum hourly rate. I'd just be in favour of raising that minimum rate to a liveable amount.

If you give a liveable amount of money to everyone regardless of employment, you will remove the impetus to work for a lot of people. You may also encourage them to participate in the black economy for extra cash, thus reducing the pool of taxpayers that will fund the scheme.

Ultimately you must provide the motivation to work or create wealth so that GNP is sufficient to pay for all of these benefits, otherwise the formula doesn't work.

We're already experiencing Pension fund shortfalls due to the reducing number of workers (we're failing to reproduce ourselves in sufficient numbers) and increasing life expectancy of pensioners.

How will UBI work?

iamtony

Antares35 wrote: »

And where would all this free money come from?

In ireland I'm not sure, in the US one guy reckons 1 cent off every wall street trade would fund it.

4068ac1elhodqr

Cyclepath wrote: »

I'm in favour of UBI for people who actually work. But we have that already in the form of minimum hourly rate.

Two very different fiscal tools, with no similarlity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income

storker

iamtony wrote: »

Everything would stay the same, you and I would keep our jobs and still get universal basic income. The same as everyone else in the country. It just provides a better standard of living for those in lower paid jobs. So if you were on the dole you would get 300 a week. If you had a job you get 300 plus your salary.

But...if I remember correctly...you no longer get any tax free allowances on your salary and you pay tax on every Euro - that's where some of the funding for the basic income payment comes from. Some more comes from the savings made in administration because giving everybody the same amount of money just for being a certain age is much cheaper to administer than means testing etc.

I think it's an interesting idea, but I haven't seen any firm figures on costs/gains from either the pros or antis. The people saying it would reward the idle may well be right, but many of those idle under the current system would be more likely to shake themselves under a UBI system because there's nothing to be lost by taking a few hours a day, a couple of days a week, or even full time employment. If the payment doesn't stop because someone gets a job, then they don't have to have to go and apply for it all over again. It would make life much simple and perhaps even aid job mobility.

If it was ever to be done, though, I think it should just be a straightforward payment, much like Children's Allowance. Some proposal have involved tax credits, rebates etc and I think this misses the point of making it simple and inexpensive to administer.

Cyclepath

Kamila Panicky Pentagon wrote: »

Two very different fiscal tools, with no similarlity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income

Yeah cheers, I'm aware of the difference and that's why I qualified it with 'for people who actually work'. I was attempting to illustrate a contrast.

However, there is also a very obvious similarity. Both are fiscal tools that seek to guarantee that someone receives an adequate living income. UBI just guarantees it to people that might chose not to work for it.

kippy

storker wrote: »

But...if I remember correctly...you no longer get any tax free allowances on your salary and you pay tax on every Euro - that's where some of the funding for the basic income payment comes from. Some more comes from the savings made in administration because giving everybody the same amount of money just for being a certain age is much cheaper to administer than means testing etc.

I think it's an interesting idea, but I haven't seen any firm figures on costs/gains from either the pros or antis. The people saying it would reward the idle may well be right, but many of those idle under the current system would be more likely to shake themselves under a UBI system because there's nothing to be lost by taking a few hours a day, a couple of days a week, or even full time employment. If the payment doesn't stop because someone gets a job, then they don't have to have to go and apply for it all over again. It would make life much simple and perhaps even aid job mobility.

If it was ever to be done, though, I think it should just be a straightforward payment, much like Children's Allowance. Some proposal have involved tax credits, rebates etc and I think this misses the point of making it simple and inexpensive to administer.

I think a €200 rate for every over 18 year old in the country is totally do-able.