Is Universal Basic Income the way forward?

Ipso

iamtony wrote: »

In ireland I'm not sure, in the US one guy reckons 1 cent off every wall street trade would fund it.

The Irish stock exchange isn't necessarily known for it's high volume.

Ipso

iamtony wrote: »

Everything would stay the same, you and I would keep our jobs and still get universal basic income. The same as everyone else in the country. It just provides a better standard of living for those in lower paid jobs. So if you were on the dole you would get 300 a week. If you had a job you get 300 plus your salary.

Which is off set by what you end up paying in tax to cover the funding for it.

Cyclepath

Cyclepath wrote: »

Yeah cheers, I'm aware of the difference and that's why I qualified it with 'for people who actually work'. I was attempting to illustrate a contrast.

However, there is also a very obvious similarity. Both are fiscal tools that seek to guarantee that someone receives an adequate living income. UBI just guarantees it to people that might chose not to work for it.

Yet our current system incentivises those who aren't working to not take part time work or minimum wage work.

kowloon

endacl wrote: »

1. There’s no stigma attached to ‘unemployment’ per se. Only to those who won’t work. And they don’t care.

I'd argue that the wealth of threads on the forum about people on the dole being stay at home alcoholics establishes that there's a pretty strong stigma.

4068ac1elhodqr

Cyclepath wrote: »

Yeah cheers, I'm aware of the difference and that's why I qualified it with 'for people who actually work'. I was attempting to illustrate a contrast.

However, there is also a very obvious similarity. Both are fiscal tools that seek to guarantee that someone receives an adequate living income. UBI just guarantees it to people that might chose not to work for it.

Problem is your ignoring that many on welfare won't dare lift a finger for a very good reason indeed.



If Mary or Joe takes the risk to do some Saturday job under the radar, they risk loosing every current benefit, a long interview, and day of labourious form-filling (along with an civil servant doing the same) if found out, as a 'reward' (penalty) for that enterprise.


If they're on UBI they can do that Saturday job, infact they can openly register with agencies for multiple zero-hour contracts, with not a droplet of sweat on their foreheads, and reap the 'varied' rewards on top of 'secure' UBI.

kippy

Kamila Panicky Pentagon wrote: »

Problem is your ignoring that many on welfare won't dare lift a finger for a very good reason indeed.



If Mary or Joe takes the risk to do some Saturday job under the radar, they risk loosing every current benefit, a long interview, and day of labourious form-filling (along with an civil servant doing the same) if found out, as a 'reward' (penalty) for that enterprise.


If they're on UBI they can do that Saturday job, infact they can openly register with agencies for multiple zero-hour contracts, with not a droplet of sweat on their foreheads, and reap the 'varied' rewards on top of 'secure' UBI.

Yeah and a UBI of 200 quid a week is ideal for a country like Ireland.

4068ac1elhodqr

kippy wrote: »

Yeah and a UBI of 200 quid a week is ideal for a country like Ireland.

The exact figure would need very careful consideration and calculation.

Remember that someone on a 'universal' payment with 1 leg, bus pass, med card, a dozen kids, donkeys, tax credits, vouchers, horses and emotional support cat etc etc is going to be much worse off.

ted1

PanMyHans wrote: »

That’s a dreadful thing to say.

Why?

We have effectively 0% unemployment, there is absolutely no reason for anyone to be on unemployment benefits for more than a year , if even 6 months.

4068ac1elhodqr

Ipso wrote: »

The Irish stock exchange isn't necessarily known for it's high volume.

But is is know for sweet deals for MNCorps, very low CT, dutch sandwiches and so on - The European Commission ordered Apple to pay €13 billion, plus interest, in 'unpaid Irish taxes' from 2004–14 to the Irish state. (Still hasn't been paid, the state don't want the money). Sweet deal for the iPhone maker!

4068ac1elhodqr

ted1 wrote: »

We have effectively 0% unemployment

When looking at the 'economically inactive', or those who could 'suddenly become economically active', if conditions were right (UBI), you'd be looking at double-digit % in (new) uptake.

So that quoted 0% would be largely meaningless and invalid.

ted1

Kamila Panicky Pentagon wrote: »

When looking at the 'economically inactive', or those who could 'suddenly become economically active', if conditions were right (UBI), you'd be looking at double-digit % in (new) uptake.

So that quoted 0% would be largely meaningless and invalid.

Yet everyone else in the economy can work ....
Perhaps you are right and we need to cut them off from benefits and incentives them to work

kippy

Kamila Panicky Pentagon wrote: »

The exact figure would need very careful consideration and calculation.

Remember that someone on a 'universal' payment with 1 leg, bus pass, med card, a dozen kids, donkeys, tax credits, vouchers, horses and emotional support cat etc etc is going to be much worse off.

So €200 per head is an ideal figure to arrive at.

astrofool

iamtony wrote: »

In ireland I'm not sure, in the US one guy reckons 1 cent off every wall street trade would fund it.

That's like the TD who wanted to tax text messages to fund everything, the systems would adapt to negate paying the 1c, sure, it would destroy any companies doing high frequency trading (or more likely use a different country stock exchange).

GreeBo

Kamila Panicky Pentagon wrote: »

Ask BillGates why he said he thinks (himself) he should've paid more taxes. Not to mention your typical Bono or Apple Inc.

Ask the authors of various studies on automation why they predict average of 45% of current jobs to vanish by the early to mid 2030's (best not to ask what will have in the 2040/50's, you really don't want to know).

Then come back to me.

What percentage of jobs from 1920 are still around today?
What jobs that didn't exist in 1920 exist today?

Comparing people earning over the average to Bill Gates is ridiculous.

Always Tired

ted1 wrote: »

Why?

We have effectively 0% unemployment, there is absolutely no reason for anyone to be on unemployment benefits for more than a year , if even 6 months.

Thats complete BS. Try finding work in Donegal without a car. I have a bachelors degree, experience in several different fields, excellent skills on Mac and PC/typing, which should be enough to gain at least some entry level min wage job, and I'm halfway through on my 2nd stint of Jobpath. They havent referred me to a single job in the 18 months.

Because there arent any around here and there's no public transport that will get you home and back to the main towns as they start too late in the morn and finish too early in the evening.

Don't believe everything you read. The numbers are skewed by schemes like the one I'm on, and emigration. And 5% (the reported unemployment rate) isnt really that close to the zero you claim.

You just want to believe that nonsense to suit your bias against the unemployed.

4068ac1elhodqr

GreeBo wrote: »

What percentage of jobs from 1920 are still around today?

There were plenty of unskilled jobs then, and also... there are still rather a lot of unskilled jobs today.

But here's a much better question, what percentage of jobs in 2030 or 2035 will be 'unskilled'?

You know, the dumb grunt jobs that some teenager fresh off the boat, can pick up with less than 2days training (retail/warehousing/bar/cafe/labour/kp/fast-food/courier etc etc).

GreeBo wrote: »

Comparing people earning over the average to Bill Gates is ridiculous.

No one said such a thing. The only reference to Gates, was simply that he himself said he wished that he paid more taxes on his bns I.e. Feels he didn't ever pay enough tax.

The billionaires can very easily avoid any significant taxation, (including IHT), with an vast array of options and fiscal toolsets at their disposal.

GreeBo

Kamila Panicky Pentagon wrote: »

There were plenty of unskilled jobs then, and also... there are still rather a lot of unskilled jobs today.

But here's a much better question, what percentage of jobs in 2030 or 2035 will be 'unskilled'?

You know, the dumb grunt jobs that some teenager fresh off the boat, can pick up with less than 2days training (retail/warehousing/bar/cafe/labour/kp/fast-food/courier etc etc).


No one did/said such a thing. The only reference to Gates, was simply that he himself said he wished that he paid more taxes on his bns I.e. Feels he didn't ever pay enough tax.

The billionaires can very easily avoid any significant taxation, (including IHT), with an vast array of options and fiscal toolsets at their disposal.

There will always be plenty of unskilled jobs, just like the will always be plenty of people who believe these jobs are beneath them.

You can tax all the billionaires in Ireland all you want and its not going to come close to just getting more people paying into the basic tax net.

4068ac1elhodqr

GreeBo wrote: »

There will always be plenty of unskilled jobs

Feel free to supply the study(s) and data that proves this theory for e.g. the mid-2030's showing the expected bounty of grunt work, over automation. Otherwise it's meaningless commentry and speculation.

While you doing that, ask yourself why (today) the uk announced it won't accept any unskilled migrants, or offer them work-visas from Jan next year.

GreeBo

GreeBo wrote: »

There will always be plenty of unskilled jobs, just like the will always be plenty of people who believe these jobs are beneath them.

You can tax all the billionaires in Ireland all you want and its not going to come close to just getting more people paying into the basic tax net.

We are already seeing these jobs disappearing rapidly

saabsaab

Not a bad idea. Say 100 pw to all adult citizens with 25 pw for each child and a top up for disabled etc. Free to work to top up and tax all above a low level. No need fro Social Welfare administered by Revenue.

4068ac1elhodqr

Deleted User wrote: »

We are already seeing these jobs disappearing rapidly

Indeed, the uk they just had their worst year (2019) in retail since their (BRC) records began, 140,000 jobs down the drain, 6,000 stores put their shutters up for the last time, the first negative in 25yrs. For 2020 already, 10,000 gone and the year's barely warmed up.

Much of it is moving online (automation) with less human assets required.

4068ac1elhodqr

saabsaab wrote: »

Not a bad idea. Say 100 pw to all adult citizens with 25 pw for each child and a top up for disabled etc. Free to work to top up and tax all above a low level. No need fro Social Welfare administered by Revenue.

Universal means 'universal', so ideally everyone over 18 gets the same fixed amount regardless of status or ability inc. disabled/high-breeders. Some may be worse off, but the majority will benefit.

Yes, the 10's of thousands of pen pushers checking up and form-filling all previous multi-welfare claimants, will have to re-train into something else, which would actually benefit real GDP growth.

tjhook

Kamila Panicky Pentagon wrote: »

Universal means 'universal', so ideally everyone over 18 gets the same fixed amount regardless of status or ability inc. disabled/high-breeders. Some may be worse off, but the majority will benefit.

That's the theory. But try telling the public that some of "the most vulnerable" will be worse off. The megaphone crowd will be out protesting. The government will of course cave.

In reality, the UBI will become the minimum, with rules allowing everybody previously on benefits to receive at least as much as they did before UBI. Workers/tax payers won't be better off, otherwise how would it all be funded?

So while it may work in theory, in practice it'll just be a way to increase taxes and social welfare.

GreeBo

Kamila Panicky Pentagon wrote: »

Feel free to supply the study(s) and data that proves this theory for e.g. the mid-2030's showing the expected bounty of grunt work, over automation. Otherwise it's meaningless commentry and speculation.

While you doing that, ask yourself why (today) the uk announced it won't accept any unskilled migrants, or offer them work-visas from Jan next year.

Lol, I'm speculating yet you can tell the future somehow?
You are the one claiming they will be gone chief, you show the studies!
Who is going to collect glasses in a pub?
Dishes in a restaurant?
Stack shelves in a shop?
Make sandwiches in a deli?
Work the till in a shop?
Labour on a building site?
Do security in countless situations?

I don't need to ask myself, it's because the UK also has a perfectly capable home grown workforce for these jobs. Why would you import people and then pay locals to be on welfare?

I'm not sure you have thought this through fully.

GreeBo

Deleted User wrote: »

We are already seeing these jobs disappearing rapidly

Call me when we have fewer unskilled jobs than unskilled people. Then I'll think about worrying about people who can't be arsed working. The reduction in these jobs only impacts the people willing to work at them. I.e. Mostly foreign nationals.

4068ac1elhodqr

tjhook wrote: »

That's the theory. But try telling the public that some of "the most vulnerable" will be worse off. The megaphone crowd will be out protesting. The government will of course cave.
In reality, the UBI will become the minimum, with rules allowing everybody previously on benefits to receive at least as much as they did before UBI. Workers/tax payers won't be better off, otherwise how would it all be funded?

So while it may work in theory, in practice it'll just be a way to increase taxes and social welfare.

The easy solution would be to offer them (ayone who feels worse-off) a guaranteed 8hrs work per week, without any penality. 'If' there is zero unemplyment that should be easy. Couple of days doing cushy 4hr shifts at a call centre. A Saturday-only job, or even 1.25hr per day on some flexi-zero-hour-gig.

Ideally aim to bring everyone down to a 4day/35hr week like the French are trying to protect from Macron. Then observe a national increase in well-being once the new programe settles in.

GreeBo

Kamila Panicky Pentagon wrote: »

The easy solution would be to offer them (ayone who feels worse-off) a guaranteed 8hrs work per week, without any penality. 'If' there is zero unemplyment that should be easy. Couple of days doing cushy 4hr shifts at a call centre. A Saturday-only job, or even 1.25hr per day on some flexi-zero-hour-gig.

Ideally aim to bring everyone down to a 4day/35hr week like the French are trying to protect from Macron. Then observe a national increase in well-being once the new programe settles in.

Everyone doing 35 hour week?

What will we do when all the emerging markets pass us by?

kippy

Kamila Panicky Pentagon wrote: »

Universal means 'universal', so ideally everyone over 18 gets the same fixed amount regardless of status or ability inc. disabled/high-breeders. Some may be worse off, but the majority will benefit.

Yes, the 10's of thousands of pen pushers checking up and form-filling all previous multi-welfare claimants, will have to re-train into something else, which would actually benefit real GDP growth.

So a 200 a week should suffice?

4068ac1elhodqr

GreeBo wrote: »

Lol, I'm speculating yet you can tell the future somehow?
You are the one claiming they will be gone chief, you show the studies!

Here's one of many studies, now where's yours?
https://www.pwc.co.uk/services/economics-policy/insights/the-impact-of-automation-on-jobs.html

GreeBo wrote: »

Who is going to collect glasses in a pub?.

The autobot glass collector, an elementary conveyer system.

GreeBo wrote: »

Dishes in a restaurant?

The autobot dish collector, have you ever been to Japan?

GreeBo wrote: »

Stack shelves in a shop?

Shops are closing, but the The autobot shelve stacker will do that in 2030s

GreeBo wrote: »

Make sandwiches in a deli?

Did you hear about the autoburger flipper in the US, it got sacked, as was too fast, and the fast(slow)-food staff complained to their Union, boohoo.

GreeBo wrote: »

Work the till in a shop?

"Item in the wrong baggage area", you've heard this voice before, right?

GreeBo wrote: »

Labour on a building site?

The 3DP machine has no requirement for labour.

GreeBo wrote: »

Do security in countless situations?

China and the uk are rolling out FRS, look (face) the wrong way at any of their tracking cameras, that processes 200faces a second, and it's trouble.

I'm not sure you have thought this through fully.

4068ac1elhodqr

GreeBo wrote: »

Everyone doing 35 hour week?
What will we do when all the emerging markets pass us by?

35hr would be the ideal, of course if someone really wanted to juggle multiple gigs to buy shinny things, and the biggest TV on the block, so be it.

Will the pass by a state, that has 'actual' true zero-unemplyment and thus productvity boosts? Not the fudged numbers, that currently exist to make it sound like zero on paper.

kippy

Kamila Panicky Pentagon wrote: »

35hr would be the ideal, of course if someone really wanted to juggle multiple gigs to buy shinny things, and the biggest TV on the block, so be it.

Will the pass by a state, that has 'actual' true zero-unemplyment and thus productvity boosts? Not the fudged numbers, that currently exist to make it sound like zero on paper.

Have you any thoughts on what the UBI should be as I believe this to be by far the biggest issue outside of how to fund it.

GreeBo

Kamila Panicky Pentagon wrote: »

Here's one of many studies, now where's yours?
https://www.pwc.co.uk/services/economics-policy/insights/the-impact-of-automation-on-jobs.html


The autobot glass collector, an elementary conveyer system.


The autobot dish collector, have you ever been to Japan?

Shops are closing, but the The autobot shelve stacker will do that in 2030s


Did you hear about the autoburger flipper in the US, it got sacked, as was too fast, and the fast(slow)-food staff complained to their Union, boohoo.


"Item in the wrong baggage area", you've heard this voice before, right?

The 3DP machine has no requirement for labour.

China and the uk are rolling out FRS, look (face) the wrong way at any of their tracking cameras, that processes 200faces a second, and it's trouble.

I'm not sure you have thought this through fully.

So your answer is "the autobots"?

How many shops exclusively have cashier free tills? How many newsagents have them? How many garages? How many pubs? How many chippers?
How many unskilled people do they employ to support those tills?
You have been watching far too much Beyond 2000 mate.

How does your security camera stop me causing trouble in your petrol statuon or building site or bank or hotel lobby?

GreeBo

Kamila Panicky Pentagon wrote: »

35hr would be the ideal, of course if someone really wanted to juggle multiple gigs to buy shinny things, and the biggest TV on the block, so be it.

Will the pass by a state, that has 'actual' true zero-unemplyment and thus productvity boosts? Not the fudged numbers, that currently exist to make it sound like zero on paper.

It's nothing to do with people wanting to earn more, it's to do with the U.S. Millionaire wanting someone to answer the phone in the financial institution he is ringing.

You thin Brazil or India will let the phone ring at 4pm because everyone had gone home? They'd eat your gdp alive.

Unless you reckon private industry will employ more people to cover this shortfall and thus massively increase their expenses?

This is hippie commune stuff.

ted1

Always Tired wrote: »

Thats complete BS. Try finding work in Donegal without a car. I have a bachelors degree, experience in several different fields, excellent skills on Mac and PC/typing, which should be enough to gain at least some entry level min wage job, and I'm halfway through on my 2nd stint of Jobpath. They havent referred me to a single job in the 18 months.

Because there arent any around here and there's no public transport that will get you home and back to the main towns as they start too late in the morn and finish too early in the evening.

Don't believe everything you read. The numbers are skewed by schemes like the one I'm on, and emigration. And 5% (the reported unemployment rate) isnt really that close to the zero you claim.

You just want to believe that nonsense to suit your bias against the unemployed.

So why not relocate ?
If you are choosing to live an remote area with no transport. Sounds like you are not available for work
And not suitable for jobs seekers


You say they haven’t put you forward in 18 months gives me the impression you are happy to sit down and wait for a job to come to you. You need to be proactive and put yourself forward

GreeBo

GreeBo wrote: »

So your answer is "the autobots"?

How many shops exclusively have cashier free tills? How many newsagents have them? How many garages? How many pubs? How many chippers?
How many unskilled people do they employ to support those tills?
You have been watching far too much Beyond 2000 mate.

How does your security camera stop me causing trouble in your petrol statuon or building site or bank or hotel lobby?

Pretty much every super market has automated check outs now.

Newsagents are a dying breed.

Some garages you can pay for petrol at the pump without have to ever going in.

The likes of McDonald's have automated ordering. Some things like restaurants won't be automated for some time, if ever. Although it didn't take long to remove cash from the equation.

You'd need one person to manage a fleet of automated tills.

If you can't see where this trend is going, I don't know what to say to you. Self driving cars are going to be here very soon disrupting a ton of markets.

ted1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Pretty much every super market has automated check outs now.

Newsagents are a dying breed.

Some garages you can pay for petrol at the pump without have to ever going in.

The likes of McDonald's have automated ordering. Some things like restaurants won't be automated for some time, if ever. Although it didn't take long to remove cash from the equation.

You'd need one person to manage a fleet of automated tills.

If you can't see where this trend is going, I don't know what to say to you. Self driving cars are going to be here very soon disrupting a ton of markets.

And all those machines need engineers , maintenance, services , parts. So a large amount of back ground staff.

GreeBo

Deleted User wrote: »

Pretty much every super market has automated check outs now.

Newsagents are a dying breed.

Some garages you can pay for petrol at the pump without have to ever going in.

The likes of McDonald's have automated ordering. Some things like restaurants won't be automated for some time, if ever. Although it didn't take long to remove cash from the equation.

You'd need one person to manage a fleet of automated tills.

If you can't see where this trend is going, I don't know what to say to you. Self driving cars are going to be here very soon disrupting a ton of markets.

There are dozens of people doing unskilled work at every one of those examples.
You buy far more than but fuel at a garage.

Your answers all focus on the point of payment, there is a lot more involved. How do your dishes get to/from your table?
How are they cleaned?
Who cleans and lays the table?

What supermarket have you been in with 1 person managing the tills?
If they have some automated tills, why not all?

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

And all those machines need engineers , maintenance, services , parts. So a large amount of back ground staff.

Which is skilled labour. I imagine a one time installation along with maintenance using technologies which can scale exponentially would require less human intervention.

GreeBo

GreeBo wrote: »

There are dozens of people doing unskilled work at every one of those examples.
You buy far more than but fuel at a garage.

Your answers all focus on the point of payment, there is a lot more involved. How do your dishes get to/from your table?
How are they cleaned?
Who cleans and lays the table?

What supermarket have you been in with 1 person managing the tills?
If they have some automated tills, why not all?

I never claimed there would no unskilled humans required, I even conceded the restaurant industry won't change much. I'm arguing that there would be rapidly far less people required in a ton of industries and its predicted to get worse/better. The most obvious one on the horizon is self driving cars.

Ubbquittious

Eventually the universal basic income will be pared back to the point where it will only get you a room in a rotten little apartment, some basic food and some virtual goods in some virtual reality you practically live in to numb your mind from the fact that you don''t actually have a life. At this point all the billionaires will have whole countries to themselves and a lot of the will fcuk off into space looking for new planets to colonise

be careful what you wish for

feelthepower

Always Tired wrote: »

Thats complete BS. Try finding work in Donegal without a car. I have a bachelors degree, experience in several different fields, excellent skills on Mac and PC/typing, which should be enough to gain at least some entry level min wage job, and I'm halfway through on my 2nd stint of Jobpath. They havent referred me to a single job in the 18 months.

Because there arent any around here and there's no public transport that will get you home and back to the main towns as they start too late in the morn and finish too early in the evening.

Don't believe everything you read. The numbers are skewed by schemes like the one I'm on, and emigration. And 5% (the reported unemployment rate) isnt really that close to the zero you claim.


You just want to believe that nonsense to suit your bias against the unemployed.

Jaysus there's some excuses there. Do you think everyone that works their job is next door to them and they walk to work? Some people are commuting three hours in and then three hours out of Dublin every day for work or longer.

Sorry but the excuse I don't have a car is just BS. Its just an absolute cop out and I absolutly hate this attitude.

If I offered you an interview in Waterford and say the job was 25K my guess is you wouldn't bother turn up for the interview? Am I right?

We have people from rural counties all over Ireland that have moved away so they can get work.

Why not save the Dole. Even if you get a job in Kilklenny, Waterford, Cork, Galway stay in a hostel until you have enough for a deposit and rent . Even with the dole live frugally until you have 2000 saved and credit unions are excellent at giving small loans for someone who is getting back on their feat.

There are brilleant for it.

Jesus this attitude infuriates me. Poor me, I don't have a car so I can't work.

My god this really annoys me.

Poor me I don't have a car

4068ac1elhodqr

kippy wrote: »

Have you any thoughts on what the UBI should be as I believe this to be by far the biggest issue outside of how to fund it.

That's the tricky part, and would likely need regular reviews. €2-300 minimum pwk. In the US Yang proposed $1k pm. Importantly it would also need rolled out en masse. Many countries have already ran small trials, however you can't measure small trails of hundreds, as an indicator of massive new state policy upon millions.

GreeBo wrote: »

So your answer is "the autobots"?

Not my answer, it's industry's.

GreeBo wrote: »

How many shops exclusively have cashier free tills? How many newsagents have them? How many garages? How many pubs? How many chippers?
How many unskilled people do they employ to support those tills?

Compared to 5yrs ago for supermarkets it's multi-fold. Even the new tap n' pay method, saves maybe 20% of staff interaction time. Newsagents don't exist anymore, they've morphed into convenience stores, usually with a (self-serve) automated coffee machine on one side and an ATM for anyone still using cash.

GreeBo wrote: »

Btw I suggest you actually read the article you linked.
"We identify three waves of automation that might unfold over this period"
Might is the salient word.

Suggest you get to know the default 'progressive' nature of technology.
Still waiting to read your report on how no unskilled jobs will be lost....

GreeBo wrote: »

It's nothing to do with people wanting to earn more, it's to do with the U.S. Millionaire wanting someone to answer the phone in the financial institution he is ringing.

If you've never heard of a multi-choice automated telephony gateway or web support chatbox by now, you've really missed the bus.

GreeBo

Deleted User wrote: »

Which is skilled labour. I imagine a one time installation along with maintenance using technologies which can scale exponentially would require less human intervention.

so in 10 years time we will have autobots and exponentially scaling technology to serve you in McDonalds?

Seriously, this is pie in the sky stuff.

GreeBo

Kamila Panicky Pentagon wrote: »

Not my answer, it's industry's.

In very niche areas.
Unless your expectations are that all SMEs are replaced by large corporations, your mom and pop, bricks and mortar shops are going to have people in them serving other people. It will take many decades before automated everything is at a price point where its available to all.

Kamila Panicky Pentagon wrote: »

Compared to 5yrs ago for supermarkets it's multi-fold. Even the new tap n' pay method, saves maybe 20% of staff interaction time. Newsagents don't exist anymore, they've morphed into convenience stores, usually with a (self-serve) automated coffee machine on one side and an ATM for anyone still using cash.

Usually with a couple of self serve areas and a couple of people behind a counter. Those with a deli have more people again.

Kamila Panicky Pentagon wrote: »

Suggest you get to know the default 'progressive' nature of technology.
Still waiting to read your report on how no unskilled jobs will be lost....

I know all about technology having worked in the industry for 2 decades thanks.

Kamila Panicky Pentagon wrote: »

If you've never heard of a multi-choice automated telephony gateway or web support chatbox by now, you've really missed the bus.

Ok, that just proves how deluded you are.
You seriously think people will stake millions on talking to a chatbot about financial advice?
Automation is basically triage, ity gets people talking to the right person and in minimal cases answers some basic FAQs
It doesn't and can't replace skilled humans who have pissed off home at 4pm due to your 35 hour week utopia.
Think about it rationally, why would FDI come to Ireland with a workforce that works significantly fewer hours than the rest of the world (other than France)?

Andrewf20

Finland tried this idea, here's the result. Sounds mixed tbh.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47169549

Andrewf20

Another interesting link that goes through the different countries that tried this idea:

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2020/2/19/21112570/universal-basic-income-ubi-map

GreeBo

GreeBo wrote: »

so in 10 years time we will have autobots and exponentially scaling technology to serve you in McDonalds?

Seriously, this is pie in the sky stuff.

Yes... What don't you understand?

GreeBo

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes... What don't you understand?

Can you describe how "exponentially auto scaling technology" will serve me my burger & chips? Even at a 10,000ft level would be fine.

Feel free to throw in some "cloud", "serverless" and "bitcoin" references.

GreeBo

GreeBo wrote: »

Can you describe how "exponentially auto scaling technology" will serve me my burger & chips? Even at a 10,000ft level would be fine.

Feel free to throw in some "cloud", "serverless" and "bitcoin" references.

Right I meant scaling in the sense that you can develop a single piece of technology and deploy it in thousands of places. Maybe I shouldn't have used the word exponential. Unskilled human labour like childcare isn't scalable. Developing an app and reaching a million people is. So we as a society should consider using something like UBI to boost important jobs like childcare/teachers/elderly-care while all the money is sucked up by Amazon's robots.



McDonald's is a perfect example of a company who could adopt such a thing. In fact their already doing it. We already let a computer land planes. How hard could running a fast-food restaurant be. People already know their getting **** food for a low cost so what difference does it make if there is no human interaction in the process.


If you had argued fine dining, sure, I don't think that will be going out of fashion anytime soon. The smaller the company, the less likely they are to standardise everything and attempt to cut all these corners.


Shops are being trialed where you go in and take whatever you want off the shelves and walk out. A series of cameras determine who you are and what you took and bill you accordingly. The likes of Tesco could use a bitcoin-like ledger to track each customer's bill, hosted on AWS Cloud so their local stores could be serverless

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GreeBo wrote: »

so in 10 years time we will have autobots and exponentially scaling technology to serve you in McDonalds?
Seriously, this is pie in the sky stuff.

Lol, are you having a McLaugh? Not 10yrs, it's 'slightly' sooner

The aim was for the end of 2019, to integrate Dynamic Yield’s technology into almost all (US and Australian) drive-thrus.

Last year McD made it's 3rd tech-automaiton aquisition - Apprente, which uses artificial intelligence to understand speech. Combined with the previously bought ($300m) Dynamic Yield {personalization and machine learning decision logic technology} & Plexure {mobile app ordering} it will make autobot serving very down to earth indeed.

The latest technology mix will be used in its drive-thrus and could be used in its self-order kiosks and mobile apps. It has already evaluated it's use in test restaurants (McD Tech Lab) and deemed it ready for roll out.

The CEO confirmed (in-store) kiosks have been generating higher average checks in the U.S.



Stocks are up 22% at last quater, sure you'd imagine so, when x4 kiosks (that don't take breaks, sickdays or holidays) replace x4 staff members.