Domestic Solar PV Quotes 2020

Geeyfds53573

Deagol wrote: »

You'd want to get clarification of what they are quoting as it's not clear which type of inverter they are offering.

Wouldn't recommend the Alpha battery either. They have the same issue as the Pylontech's I see frequently offered. That '5.7kw' model has a maximum output current of only 56A - this means the maximum power output from it is around 2.4kw. Between base load and a cooker ring that's as much as it will do.

If you have multiple Pylontechs I assume a higher output is higher?

graememk

Geeyfds53573 wrote: »

If you have multiple Pylontechs I assume a higher output is higher?

Yep, they are wired in parallel When you have more than one unit, They are 15S (15 cells, 3.2v) 48V nominal Voltage

So with 2 you can pull 112A which is about 5.3kw, if the inverter supports it.

Tarant

graememk wrote: »

Yep, they are wired in parallel When you have more than one unit, They are 15S (15 cells, 3.2v) 48V nominal Voltage

So with 2 you can pull 112A which is about 5.3kw, if the inverter supports it.

Be aware for the Pylontech, if the temp is below 13c it only charges at 10 amp x 52volt = 500 watt (discharge is still 25 amp = 1.25kw)
Was thinking of designing a heater for it (oneday)

Geeyfds53573

graememk wrote: »

Yep, they are wired in parallel When you have more than one unit, They are 15S (15 cells, 3.2v) 48V nominal Voltage

So with 2 you can pull 112A which is about 5.3kw, if the inverter supports it.

Thanks a mill glad I asked so Max AC 5000v may not cut it but an inverter Max AC @5500v will

slave1

Lleyn elec wrote: »

Where is the best site to purchase panels and inverters from?
I’m a registered electrical contractor and have a 63x40 shed with a south facing roof on one.
Looking at a 6kW system, is there any model of inverter that is popular and type tested? Just looking at the NC6 form here at the moment.

If you’re a registered electrician why not purchase up North, if properly invoiced/delivered to a ROI business address you should get exclusive of VAT as the gear was immediately exported from NI.

Deagol

Geeyfds53573 wrote: »

Thanks a mill glad I asked so Max AC 5000v may not cut it but an inverter Max AC @5500v will

It's to do with maximum output current from the battery. It's not quoted in the quotes - you need to go to manufacturer site and look at specifications.

To get maximum output power (watts) you multiply the maximum sustained current (be careful, lots of them quote a peak value which is only for 10sec) by the battery voltage (usually 48volts).

So for the Alpha 5.7kw - it's a 48v x 56amps (sustained max)=2688watts or ~2.7kw. Note that there are other things that feed in like ambient temperature etc but the max is the best to look at as it gives best scenario.

If you want to see the difference - look at Pylontech 5kw vs Puredrive 5kw max current...both 5kw but one is ~50A output and other is ~100A.

Geeyfds53573

Deagol wrote: »

It's to do with maximum output current from the battery. It's not quoted in the quotes - you need to go to manufacturer site and look at specifications.

To get maximum output power (watts) you multiply the maximum sustained current (be careful, lots of them quote a peak value which is only for 10sec) by the battery voltage (usually 48volts).

So for the Alpha 5.7kw - it's a 48v x 56amps (sustained max)=2688watts or ~2.7kw. Note that there are other things that feed in like ambient temperature etc but the max is the best to look at as it gives best scenario.

If you want to see the difference - look at Pylontech 5kw vs Puredrive 5kw max current...both 5kw but one is ~50A output and other is ~100A.

Thanks think I understand ... well so so ...but what are you looking for on the inverter size to see if the inverter supports it?

Deagol

Geeyfds53573 wrote: »

Thanks think I understand ... well so so ...but what are you looking for on the inverter size to see if the inverter supports it?

Technically - inverter changes DC to AC, the solar panels produce DC power, our grid is AC. So the convention is that inverter refers to solar panel to grid power.

For battery systems the convention is that you use a 'Hybrid' inverter.

A hybrid inverter has effectively two subsystems:

1) A standard DC-AC converter (the inverter).
2) A battery charging circuit (DC-DC)

And because of that it gets a wee bit complicated.

Lets take a 5kw inverter : generally, the 5kw part refers to the maximum DC-AC conversion rate. But, for the battery side - you need to be sure the battery can output at x rate of current. AND, what can the inverter do from the battery. That's because the batteries are 48V x max current (current * volts=watts/kilowatts). Whereas the panels voltage is summed (the panels are wired in series so each one you add makes voltage higher NOT current higher) so the voltage from the panels is much higher (and hence lower current).

So: golden rule I guess. The max current output of the inverter is much more important than the Kw output value.

Reading this back I'm not sure it's coherrent... sorry...

Best I can say is ask people here about specific models and we can probably better answer!

graememk

Deagol wrote: »

Technically - inverter changes DC to AC, the solar panels produce DC power, our grid is AC. So the convention is that inverter refers to solar panel to grid power.

For battery systems the convention is that you use a 'Hybrid' inverter.

A hybrid inverter has effectively two subsystems:

1) A standard DC-AC converter (the inverter).
2) A battery charging circuit (DC-DC)

And because of that it gets a wee bit complicated.

Lets take a 5kw inverter : generally, the 5kw part refers to the maximum DC-AC conversion rate. But, for the battery side - you need to be sure the battery can output at x rate of current. AND, what can the inverter do from the battery. That's because the batteries are 48V x max current (current * volts=watts/kilowatts). Whereas the panels voltage is summed (the panels are wired in series so each one you add makes voltage higher NOT current higher) so the voltage from the panels is much higher (and hence lower current).

So: golden rule I guess. The max current output of the inverter is much more important than the Kw output value.

Reading this back I'm not sure it's coherrent... sorry...

Best I can say is ask people here about specific models and we can probably better answer!

Havent looked into hybrid inverter much.

I am wondering is there even a DC-DC converter in it. Solar is 200-300V DC

And they all can charge from the grid.

It would be easier to put it all to AC and then just use a transformer and rectifier to charge the batteries - It would also need to have an inverter that can run in parallel with the Solar inverter. (and also on 48v) It cant use the same inverter that it uses for the solar.

So basically its a AC storage inverter and normal Solar inverter all in one box.

Which also means that if you crack it open, you might be able to stick a CT on the battery side of the hybrid inverter (although... warranty is out the window)

Deagol

graememk wrote: »

Havent looked into hybrid inverter much.

I am wondering is there even a DC-DC converter in it. Solar is 200-300V DC

And they all can charge from the grid.

It would be easier to put it all to AC and then just use a transformer and rectifier to charge the batteries - It would also need to have an inverter that can run in parallel with the Solar inverter. (and also on 48v) It cant use the same inverter that it uses for the solar.

So basically its a AC storage inverter and normal Solar inverter all in one box.

Which also means that if you crack it open, you might be able to stick a CT on the battery side of the hybrid inverter (although... warranty is out the window)

I would guess there's a DC-DC converter - doing it via an AC xfmr and bridge rectifier or similar would be very inefficient and more expensive. But without looking at the specs carefully and maybe opening one up it's not something I know for sure.

EDIT: Yes, checked it: MPPT is a DC-DC converter and that seems to be the common denominator with Hybrid.

Geeyfds53573

Deagol wrote: »

Technically - inverter changes DC to AC, the solar panels produce DC power, our grid is AC. So the convention is that inverter refers to solar panel to grid power.

For battery systems the convention is that you use a 'Hybrid' inverter.

A hybrid inverter has effectively two subsystems:

1) A standard DC-AC converter (the inverter).
2) A battery charging circuit (DC-DC)

And because of that it gets a wee bit complicated.

Lets take a 5kw inverter : generally, the 5kw part refers to the maximum DC-AC conversion rate. But, for the battery side - you need to be sure the battery can output at x rate of current. AND, what can the inverter do from the battery. That's because the batteries are 48V x max current (current * volts=watts/kilowatts). Whereas the panels voltage is summed (the panels are wired in series so each one you add makes voltage higher NOT current higher) so the voltage from the panels is much higher (and hence lower current).

So: golden rule I guess. The max current output of the inverter is much more important than the Kw output value.

Reading this back I'm not sure it's coherrent... sorry...

Best I can say is ask people here about specific models and we can probably better answer!

Thanks Deagol

graememk

Deagol wrote: »

I would guess there's a DC-DC converter - doing it via an AC xfmr and bridge rectifier or similar would be very inefficient and more expensive. But without looking at the specs carefully and maybe opening one up it's not something I know for sure.

EDIT: Yes, checked it: MPPT is a DC-DC converter and that seems to be the common denominator with Hybrid.

Mppt is the tracking hardware to get the most out of the panels, is nearly on all inverters (basically all grid tied ones)
All we need is bigclive.com to do a tear down on one and see how it really works.

phester28

Does anyone know if a hybrid inverter will supplement the solar on high demands. I.E When you want to boil your kettle

Deagol

phester28 wrote: »

Does anyone know if a hybrid inverter will supplement the solar on high demands. I.E When you want to boil your kettle

Not sure what you mean? Do you mean if the battery is charged and you go from being net producing to consuming will the battery make up the shortfall? If so, yes - inverter constantly monitors and balances to use battery in case were load is higher than solar is supplying.

There are settings in the inverters were you can adjust the behaviour as well - but I've left mine well alone

championc

phester28 wrote: »

Does anyone know if a hybrid inverter will supplement the solar on high demands. I.E When you want to boil your kettle

I assume you are looking to clarify as to whether the kettle can draw a COMBINATION of both Solar and Battery sourced energy simultaneously. If so, then yes.

Anyone use solarpvs.ie, just looking for reviews as I am looking at getting them to do mine. Its gilroys?

Would you count it normal to ask for a deposit?

Deagol

Deleted User wrote: »

Anyone use solarpvs.ie, just looking for reviews as I am looking at getting them to do mine. Its gilroys?

Would you count it normal to ask for a deposit?

Don't know anything about them but the website is very amateur - spelling and grammar errors in abundance. If that's the care and attention they take doing their work then I'd be questioning the care and attention they might take doing the solar install. Could be that they just hired a cheap web designer of course but you'd expect someone would take a good look at their own 'shop window' .....

I'd recommend to make sure you get some recommendations from other clients first... :cool:

BryanF

Deleted User wrote: »

Anyone use solarpvs.ie, just looking for reviews as I am looking at getting them to do mine. Its gilroys?

Would you count it normal to ask for a deposit?

recommendation /comments on specific companies by PM thanks

samdeluxjones

Got a quote from one of the wholesalers mentioned in this thread.

Longi 360w @ €93.29 X 16

Solis 5Kw Hybrid €1029.30

Pylon2.4Kwh battery €680 X 2

16 panel tree system ground mount €1500

€160 delivery.

Is there much difference or advantages going for the modular lithium ion batteries or the ones that look like car batteries apart from cost?

What are main reasons for choosing between 12, 24 & 48v batteries?

Thanks.

Deagol

samdeluxjones wrote: »

What are main reasons for choosing between 12, 24 & 48v batteries?

Thanks.

Inverter is current limited - so for example assuming inverter has max output of 100amps:: 12v X 100Amps= 1.2kw / 24v X 100amps=2.4kw etc.

graememk

samdeluxjones wrote: »

Got a quote from one of the wholesalers mentioned in this thread.

Longi 360w @ €93.29 X 16

Solis 5Kw Hybrid €1029.30

Pylon2.4Kwh battery €680 X 2

16 panel tree system ground mount €1500

€160 delivery.

Is there much difference or advantages going for the modular lithium ion batteries or the ones that look like car batteries apart from cost?

What are main reasons for choosing between 12, 24 & 48v batteries?

Thanks.

Bear in mind that price is most likely +VAT i assume?

All the hybrid inverters run off 48V systems.

Lead acid, can only be discharged to 50% to prevent damage, Lithium can go to 80-90%

Also its Lithium Iron Phosphate them batteries are not lithium ion.

Can homebrew your own batteries, Buy bare cells from China, but the configuration is a lot more hands on, Also the buck stops with you! - I'm still tweaking mine. I did luck out and end up with 215-220ah cells!

If its the company I think your thinking of, It will be in your street nearly the next day after payment.

samdeluxjones

Yes all prices ex VAT

So add €750 odd at 13%

Correct Graememk they are lithium iron.

Some of the ground mounted quotes including install of similar sizes on here are up around the €13-15k mark.

Can do most of the work myself just to get it mains connected and signed off.

No grant as post 2011

Deagol

samdeluxjones wrote: »

Correct Graememk they are lithium iron.

You understand that using Lithium Ion as opposed to what everyone else uses (Lithium Iron Phosphate - LiFePo) you are running a much, much higher risk of them going up in an uncontrollable fire? And I mean uncontrollable - look up youtube's of people's laptop batteries going up - and then imagine that times 100.

Your house insurance would be invalid I would think besides the fact that if you have them in your house.... I think you get the idea. If you want to use Li-ion you will have to house them outside your main house in a fireproof or otherwise 'I don't give a crap it burns down' structure.

graememk

samdeluxjones wrote: »

Yes all prices ex VAT

So add €750 odd at 13%

Correct Graememk they are lithium iron.

Some of the ground mounted quotes including install of similar sizes on here are up around the €13-15k mark.

Can do most of the work myself just to get it mains connected and signed off.

No grant as post 2011

If buying direct vat is 21% don't get caught out.

@deagol, priced the plyontech lifepo4, iron not ion!


Batteries are nice to have but if you went for a standalone inverter and no batteries, you'd save about 500 on the inverter and also 1200 on the batteries.

With a feed in tariff on the horizon. It's hard to make batteries pay for themselves.

slave1

...unless he has a trade account.......then 13%

graememk

slave1 wrote: »

...unless he has a trade account.......then 13%

No? Unless I'm mistaken, it's still 21, but if your a trade, VAT Registered, you buy it, claim the 21% VAT back, then charge your customer for install and charge 13.5% on the whole thing.

samdeluxjones

Got trade account and few quid off listed online price.

21% means luxury item then not just electrical?

According to revenue.ie solar panels carry 21% but to supply and install is only 13%

graememk

samdeluxjones wrote: »

Got trade account and few quid off listed online price.

21% means luxury item then not just electrical?

Generally 21% - thing
13.5% - Service

unkel

graememk wrote: »

No? Unless I'm mistaken, it's still 21, but if your a trade, VAT Registered, you buy it, claim the 21% VAT back, then charge your customer for install and charge 13.5% on the whole thing.

That's correct, graememk

samdeluxjones

PV panels only 5% VAT in the UK


Anyone buy from the continent?

Looks like delivery between €300-400.

unkel

Cheaper to buy here. The two main wholesale providers (who also supply retail) are solartricity (Irish owned) and midsummer (British owned), you take your pick

samdeluxjones

In the event of a power cut which is frequent where I live will a 5-6 kw array keep the basics running during the day like wifi/internet/computer & fridge if the sun is not shining?

How long approx would a 4.8 Kwh battery power the same in the evening?

Lleyn elec

samdeluxjones wrote: »

In the event of a power cut which is frequent where I live will a 5-6 kw array keep the basics running during the day like wifi/internet/computer & fridge if the sun is not shining?

How long approx would a 4.8 Kwh battery power the same in the evening?

A grid tied inverter won’t output anything if there is no mains.

Others will know more on here but I think some may possibly have the option connecting one output such as a socket for use in a power cut this wouldn’t be part of your normal consumer unit.

samdeluxjones

According to the sales guy the batteries will power the house once isolated from the mains during a power cut so I assume that's DC from batteries/panels going back through the invertor to supply the house AC.

Is this possible with a hybrid invertor or is there more kit needed?

Thanks.

graememk

samdeluxjones wrote: »

How long approx would a 4.8 Kwh battery power the same in the evening?

All depends on how much power you use!

slave1

samdeluxjones wrote: »

According to the sales guy the batteries will power the house once isolated from the mains during a power cut so I assume that's DC from batteries/panels going back through the invertor to supply the house AC.

Is this possible with a hybrid invertor or is there more kit needed?

Thanks.

Therein lies your issue, get that in writing, also remember the amps/voltage from the batteries will be limited so e.g. you won't boil a kettle.
A typical 2 battery Pylontech 2.4kWh battery setup (so 4.8kWh) will max out at 2.2kW consumption

samdeluxjones

I will double check Slave1


With everything tripped out bar bare essentials, TV/WiFi few lights & fridge say even 500W a 4.8 Kwh battery should last 8 hours.

I would be happy with 6 hours.

slave1

samdeluxjones wrote: »

I will double check Slave1


With everything tripped out bar bare essentials, TV/WiFi few lights & fridge say even 500W a 4.8 Kwh battery should last 8 hours.

I would be happy with 6 hours.

4.8kWh is the rating of the battery, you will not have access to 100% of it, it is typically only 80%-90% accessible.
That gives you 3.9kWh to 4.3kWh accessible so would reduce your 8 hours

Deagol

samdeluxjones wrote: »

According to the sales guy the batteries will power the house once isolated from the mains during a power cut so I assume that's DC from batteries/panels going back through the invertor to supply the house AC.

Is this possible with a hybrid invertor or is there more kit needed?

Thanks.

Standard setup won't power the house when grid power goes off. There is a switch that isolates the solar panels / batteries from the inverter once the grid power is lost. This is because otherwise the grid upstream of your house could be live when the power workers would expect it to be offline.

The inverters have a seperate off-grid connection that allows you to take power
from the panels and battery but you cannot use this to power the normal mains circuit in your house. Simplest you could do would be to have an extension lead from the inverter to what ever you wanted to power. A previous poster did show more complex arrangement that isolates the house wiring from the grid via a large switch and that brings the inverter back in.

That salesman sounds like someone you should be very wary of if he's spouting things like that... it's a big warning sign - as another post said, make sure you get all the promises in writing..

idc

samdeluxjones wrote: »

According to the sales guy the batteries will power the house once isolated from the mains during a power cut so I assume that's DC from batteries/panels going back through the invertor to supply the house AC.

Is this possible with a hybrid invertor or is there more kit needed?

Thanks.

I'm guessing a lot hybrid inverters with battery backup mode but how you use is key, so for instance some installers offered to just have a dedicated set of sockets off that. in power outage plug what you need into that (as other posters mentioned as long as output from battery will cover it - maybe you can't even run a kettle!)

The next option I got was a sub board. I'm not exactly sure how this is wired up but my understanding is a small board is installed with a couple of circuits from your main board - eg lights. (where i'm lost is how this is powered when you don't have a power cut! as I would assume the backup sockets only work when the power goes off and not all the time ???)

This option is more complicated and basically you get an isolating switch put in before your existing fuse board. In normal operation its set to grid mode thus you get power from grid and/or panels/battery. In case of power cut i switch that over to backup mode which disconnects me from the grid and instead all power then is coming from the backup supply of the inverter. (as far as i recall when i enable this mode the connection between panels and hybrid inverter is also reestablished hence i can use both battery and solar power -- plan to test that but not when wife is around to complain about all the time clocks needing to be reset!!!!)

samdeluxjones

idc wrote: »

IThis option is more complicated and basically you get an isolating switch put in before your existing fuse board. In normal operation its set to grid mode thus you get power from grid and/or panels/battery. In case of power cut i switch that over to backup mode which disconnects me from the grid and instead all power then is coming from the backup supply of the inverter. (as far as i recall when i enable this mode the connection between panels and hybrid inverter is also reestablished hence i can use both battery and solar power -- plan to test that but not when wife is around to complain about all the time clocks needing to be reset!!!!)

That's interesting idc.

Have you tested your setup in a power cut or just out of curiosity to see how it would perform independently?

idc

samdeluxjones wrote: »

That's interesting idc.

Have you tested your setup in a power cut or just out of curiosity to see how it would perform independently?

I want to test that to be sure. When installed they showed me backup working but can't remember if I also saw panels still feeding battery/inverter. I'm 99% sure that's what installer told me as he explained another customer had power cut during summer but his battery didn't have much charge, so he turned off pretty much everything to reduce his consumption as much as possible and then let panels fill up the battery for him to use later in the day while powercut was still in effect.

mp3guy

Deagol wrote: »

The inverters have a seperate off-grid connection that allows you to take power
from the panels and battery but you cannot use this to power the normal mains circuit in your house.

Not true.

You can put a changeover switch ahead of your consumer unit that has grid and solar inverter backup power as options.

Deagol

mp3guy wrote: »

Not true.

You can put a changeover switch ahead of your consumer unit that has grid and solar inverter backup power as options.

Sorry, I worded it badly.

Typically, you can't do it I guess might have been better - always ways to do things though!

mp3guy

Deagol wrote: »

Good grief - how crude could you be? Pretty much would rule me out of ever using your company if this is how you behave and as another post has said... if you have four grammar errors (including not capitalizing your own name) and a spelling error in a single sentence post I'd dubious how much effort you'd put into doing work correctly.

There are people on here (not me) who had systems installed by this person. And are quite happy with them.

cubix

I didn't listen to the radio interview posted a number of pages back regarding Eamon Ryan and supposedly FIT only be available to certain BER rated properties. Anyone know what the thought process behind this would be.

graememk

cubix wrote: »

I didn't listen to the radio interview posted a number of pages back regarding Eamon Ryan and supposedly FIT only be available to certain BER rated properties. Anyone know what the thought process behind this would be.

Covered quite thoroughly in this thread : https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058149744

TLDR 2 tariffs proposed - both are to run, a subsidised one and a standard one
Subsidised - Limits on export (prevent cash for ash kind of thing), BER ratings, installs after 30th june 2021

Standard one that goes on the wholesale rate.

cubix

:cool:

KCross

cubix wrote: »

... and supposedly FIT only be available to certain BER rated properties. Anyone know what the thought process behind this would be.

The thought process is that you spend your money on other more beneficial things before you spend it on Solar PV. e.g. insulation, heating controls etc.

And its not a new requirement as such, since the existing Solar PV grant has a BER C (post-works) minimum requirement in place already.

cubix

;)Yeah had seen the previous C rating. The house was built in 2000 and would expect it to reach a C after PV install as boiler/ controls were upgraded along with with some wall & attic insulation but not sure if it would get a B