Greatest League in the World 2024 [new thread available]

The_Kew_Tour

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

Didn't Sligo have a fairly similar fall from grace? Going from winning numerous cups, the league, having a blazing start to the title defence in 2013 to relegation candidates a couple of seasons later.

With the improved money in Europe I think ours is worse. We are at the races for 5 or 6 seasons and now bang.

Oat23

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

Didn't Sligo have a fairly similar fall from grace? Going from winning numerous cups, the league, having a blazing start to the title defence in 2013 to relegation candidates a couple of seasons later.

Check the difference in European prize money between 2012 - 2014 when we were in Europe and 2015 - 2019 when you were. Our successful era came just a tad early. Euro money exploded right after we dropped out of Europe.

Ferris_Bueller

As great as the watchLOI is, any of the games I have tuned into have been fairly terrible. Dundalk do not look like a team who are going to make an impact in Europe which is worrying, obviously they got the win tonight and a few fringe players got a run out but something is not clicking for them that has been in previous years.

Cork have been atrocious as well, nice goal to win it for them tonight, but agree with those who are in disbelief about their fall from grace. They are in serious trouble this season.

MD1990

Dundalk's recruitment reminds me of the mistakes Cork made,

Kept getting in players but none making an impact. What Dundalk signing in the last 2 years has made any sort of impact? Quantity of players rather than quality.

They wont get as bad as Cork but the owners will probably look to sell.
Dundalk's financial loss this year could be huge,

Paz-CCFC

Oat23 wrote: »

Check the difference in European prize money between 2012 - 2014 when we were in Europe and 2015 - 2019 when you were. Our successful era came just a tad early. Euro money exploded right after we dropped out of Europe.

Can't find the figures, but from memory the CL in 2013 was €440k between the second round (as LoI teams entered at the time) and solidarity payment. Not as much as it is now, but still big money in LoI terms, for playing just one match. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the EL figures were about €60k per round in the first few years following the Europa League restructure, but rose to about €150k in the following years when Sligo were still qualifying Europe. Again, not as much as when we were in it, but as long as you avoided some bad, long-distance draws, you were still making a decent profit from that (was Pats' prize money entirely wiped out the year they played the team from Kazakhstan?).

Back when Sligo were qualifying, the level of opposition in the qualifiers wasn't as tough as it is now. Far fewer group stage places were closed off to teams from bigger leagues automatically qualifying, meaning that a lot of the bigger teams weren't pushed back to rounds as early as they are now. Just look at the first couple of rounds of the Europa League in 2009-2012 compared to this season and the last few years. In 2009, Sligo managed to be seeded in the first round just off the national coefficient, without having played in Europe for a long while. The first time we were seeded was last year, which took consistently qualifying and getting through a round a year on average for four years running. Irish teams often started in the 2nd round of the Europa, as well, and one season, Sligo went straight into the 3rd round, so they had a much better chance of qualifying for the group stages. Now, the only realistic chance of qualifying is by dropping down from the CL, it's nearly impossible for LoI clubs starting in the first round of the EL.

joeysoap

joeysoap wrote: »

e

Twardek looks great.


Dundalk missing Hoare, Darragh Kelly and McEleney .
I’d have sloggett on too

All 4 on tonight, thought sloggett and Kelly needed the match. Change again on Friday.

wadacrack

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

As great as the watchLOI is, any of the games I have tuned into have been fairly terrible. Dundalk do not look like a team who are going to make an impact in Europe which is worrying, obviously they got the win tonight and a few fringe players got a run out but something is not clicking for them that has been in previous years.

Cork have been atrocious as well, nice goal to win it for them tonight, but agree with those who are in disbelief about their fall from grace. They are in serious trouble this season.

WatchLoi is a great product butas a few have already stated the technical ability is a big drop from other leagues that are available to watch on TV. The SPL have been a tough watch too tbf outside of Celtic and Rangers.

the heathen

[QUOTE=MD1990;114281681
Kept getting in players but none making an impact. What Dundalk signing in the last 2 years has made any sort of impact? Quantity of players rather than quality.
[/QUOTE]

I think there's a lot of truth in that. Midfield in particular has deteriorated badly. No energy, imagination or goal threat in there at all when McEleney doesn't play and that's all too often. Compare the impacts of Sloggett, Flores and Murray to those of Watts, McAneff and Byrne - probably says a lot.

MD1990

Yeah Dundalk missing out on McEneff was a big blow.

irish_goat

FAI Cup draw just finished

UCD v Sligo
Bray v Finn Harps
Drogheda v Derry
Cobh Ramblers v Dundalk
Shamrock Rovers v Cork City
Bohs v Cabinteely
Athlone v Wexford
Galway v Shelbourne

ShamoBuc

Handy draw for City. Rovers will be putting out their second team.

Oat23

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

Can't find the figures, but from memory the CL in 2013 was €440k between the second round (as LoI teams entered at the time) and solidarity payment. Not as much as it is now, but still big money in LoI terms, for playing just one match. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the EL figures were about €60k per round in the first few years following the Europa League restructure, but rose to about €150k in the following years when Sligo were still qualifying Europe. Again, not as much as when we were in it, but as long as you avoided some bad, long-distance draws, you were still making a decent profit from that (was Pats' prize money entirely wiped out the year they played the team from Kazakhstan?).

Back when Sligo were qualifying, the level of opposition in the qualifiers wasn't as tough as it is now. Far fewer group stage places were closed off to teams from bigger leagues automatically qualifying, meaning that a lot of the bigger teams weren't pushed back to rounds as early as they are now. Just look at the first couple of rounds of the Europa League in 2009-2012 compared to this season and the last few years. In 2009, Sligo managed to be seeded in the first round just off the national coefficient, without having played in Europe for a long while. The first time we were seeded was last year, which took consistently qualifying and getting through a round a year on average for four years running. Irish teams often started in the 2nd round of the Europa, as well, and one season, Sligo went straight into the 3rd round, so they had a much better chance of qualifying for the group stages. Now, the only realistic chance of qualifying is by dropping down from the CL, it's nearly impossible for LoI clubs starting in the first round of the EL.

Since I'm sad and have nothing better to do I spent the last hour going through old UEFA PDFs to see how much money teams got each year. Here is a breakdown. I can't remember which year but one of the figures for Rovers is based on an old Independent article as I couldn't find a PDF.


Rovers:

11/12 [EL] - €180k
12/13 [EL] - €210k
13/14 [CL] - €460k
14/15 [EL] - €250k


Total: €1,100,000


City:

15/16 [EL] - €400k
16/17 [EL] - €675k
17/18 [EL] - €440k
18/19 [CL & EL] - €800k
19/20 [EL] - €240k


Total: €2,555,000


As you can see from the figures, prize money increased massively the year after we went out of Europe and you entered.

As for your point about it being tougher now, it's not really relevant how tough the games were since we are just looking at earnings. However, Rovers had some really tough draws. We were very unlucky and drew Poltava from the Ukrainian PL in 2011. Spartak Trnava from Slovakia in 2012 and then Molde in 2013. We were massive underdogs in all of those games, so it's not like you were guaranteed some pub side before UEFA changed the rules.

I'm not going to estimate travel costs and just assume they even out or come close to evening out. Neither of us had long treks to Russia or Kazakhstan. Those are reserved for whenever Pats qualify.

There are other areas where Cork have an obvious advantage to capitalise on a successful period. Attendances being one. In our best season of 2012 we averaged 3000 fans. Cork averaged 4500 in their best season of 2017.

I was able to find that against Poltava in 2011, we earned €72,000 in gate receipts for that game with an attendance of 3700 (€25 for an adult ticket). Compare that with your first foray in Europe against KR and you had 1000 more fans at that. I'm sure the numbers are similar for all of your European games compared with ours and it adds up to a healthy gate receipt total.

And yes, I know Cork have to pay rent at Turners Cross, but we also pay for maintenance and improvements at the Showgrounds. In 2011 we spent a massive chunk of our UEFA money, €120k in total, on the ground. In 2013 another €200k was spent building the new stand, although it was part-sponsored so I'm not sure how much Rovers spent exactly.

Zebra3

One of Cork's European aways was against Linfield.

Big money saver.

Guffy

Has to be some JD level **** going on at the cross.

Zebra3

Guffy wrote: »

Has to be some JD level **** going on at the cross.

You think somebody is pocketing ~€400k a year in salary and expenses in a democratically run club?

I don't think so.

Oat23

Guffy wrote: »

Has to be some JD level **** going on at the cross.

Cork are a co-op like ourselves so I think their books are open and can be viewed by members, so there wouldn't be any funny business going on or it'd be right there in the accounts.


Just wasteful. I think they paid us €50k for Sadlier and then he left on a free 18 months later. I would love to see the accounts to figure out where all the money was wasted though.

Cape Clear

Oat23 wrote: »

Since I'm sad and have nothing better to do I spent the last hour going through old UEFA PDFs to see how much money teams got each year. Here is a breakdown. I can't remember which year but one of the figures for Rovers is based on an old Independent article as I couldn't find a PDF.


Rovers:

11/12 [EL] - €180k
12/13 [EL] - €210k
13/14 [CL] - €460k
14/15 [EL] - €250k


Total: €1,100,000


City:

15/16 [EL] - €400k
16/17 [EL] - €675k
17/18 [EL] - €440k
18/19 [CL & EL] - €800k
19/20 [EL] - €240k


Total: €2,555,000


As you can see from the figures, prize money increased massively the year after we went out of Europe and you entered.

As for your point about it being tougher now, it's not really relevant how tough the games were since we are just looking at earnings. However, Rovers had some really tough draws. We were very unlucky and drew Poltava from the Ukrainian PL in 2011. Spartak Trnava from Slovakia in 2012 and then Molde in 2013. We were massive underdogs in all of those games, so it's not like you were guaranteed some pub side before UEFA changed the rules.

I'm not going to estimate travel costs and just assume they even out or come close to evening out. Neither of us had long treks to Russia or Kazakhstan. Those are reserved for whenever Pats qualify.

There are other areas where Cork have an obvious advantage to capitalise on a successful period. Attendances being one. In our best season of 2012 we averaged 3000 fans. Cork averaged 4500 in their best season of 2017.

I was able to find that against Poltava in 2011, we earned €72,000 in gate receipts for that game with an attendance of 3700 (€25 for an adult ticket). Compare that with your first foray in Europe against KR and you had 1000 more fans at that. I'm sure the numbers are similar for all of your European games compared with ours and it adds up to a healthy gate receipt total.

And yes, I know Cork have to pay rent at Turners Cross, but we also pay for maintenance and improvements at the Showgrounds. In 2011 we spent a massive chunk of our UEFA money, €120k in total, on the ground. In 2013 another €200k was spent building the new stand, although it was part-sponsored so I'm not sure how much Rovers spent exactly.

Great analysis with increased money comes increased wages and costs. How much did Shams make out of Europe in the couple of years they gave it a rattle? One of the noticeable things in 2016 when City played 3 rounds of Europe was the opportunity cost associated with it. Games that might attract 3 or 4k attendance on a Friday night get moved to mid week and the attendance falls dramatically. The LOI must be the worst league in the world for planning fixtures around European competitions. None of this takes away from the high level of European earnings by City at the time and questions remain in how it was spent.

LOI clubs seem always able to find a way to squander the boom.

irishmanmick

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2020/0811/1158666-dundalk-preparing-as-normal-as-covid-claims-celje-games/

The Slovenian league's start had been suspended for 10 days after a coronavirus scare.

Given that Linfield got a bye through their pre-lim round, I wonder if Dundalk could end in similar circumstances if Celje can't fulfil the fixture.

Lyle Lanley

While I'm not at all happy that we went from league winners in 2012 to relegation battlers just a couple of years later you need only walk into the Showgrounds to see the money we did make was not squandered.

Some poor signings left us out of Europe one year and other teams took advantage, making it very hard to get back in.

Oat23

Oat23 wrote: »

Cork are a co-op like ourselves so I think their books are open and can be viewed by members, so there wouldn't be any funny business going on or it'd be right there in the accounts.


Just wasteful. I think they paid us €50k for Sadlier and then he left on a free 18 months later. I would love to see the accounts to figure out where all the money was wasted though.

Caulfield in his last 2 years had bloated squads of 26-30 players which was ludicrous - Tobi Rowling was left go on a free few months after paying for him iirc...he wasted a lot of funds on players

doncarlos

the heathen wrote: »

I think there's a lot of truth in that. Midfield in particular has deteriorated badly. No energy, imagination or goal threat in there at all when McEleney doesn't play and that's all too often. Compare the impacts of Sloggett, Flores and Murray to those of Watts, McAneff and Byrne - probably says a lot.

Have been saying for a few seasons, we haven't replaced Finn and he is our biggest loss outside of Towell since 2012.

Guffy

irishmanmick wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2020/0811/1158666-dundalk-preparing-as-normal-as-covid-claims-celje-games/

The Slovenian league's start had been suspended for 10 days after a coronavirus scare.

Given that Linfield got a bye through their pre-lim round, I wonder if Dundalk could end in similar circumstances if Celje can't fulfil the fixture.

Would this allow them to bubble in Hungary until the game?

Ohmeha

Laura White Jockey wrote: »

Caulfield in his last 2 years had bloated squads of 26-30 players which was ludicrous - Tobi Rowling was left go on a free few months after paying for him iirc...he wasted a lot of funds on players

Cork had won 21/drawn 1/lost 0 out of the first 22 league games of the 2017 season. Then that same day of that 21st win out of 22 Caulfield bizarrely signed Robbie Williams and Cork's results started to go downhill with the exception of the FAI Cup shootout win, while all not Williams fault that signing really did set the tone for the horrifying recruitment for 2018, 2019 and looking likely in 2020 aswell

joeysoap

doncarlos wrote: »

Have been saying for a few seasons, we haven't replaced Finn and he is our biggest loss outside of Towell since 2012.

Nor O’Donnell ( captain for a reason) or Horgan. Hoban , McElaney and Boyle haven’t performed as well since returning ( no doubt the same goes for McMillan)
But the biggest loss was Finn. And that includes Benson who comes close)

Zebra3

Ohmeha wrote: »

Cork had won 21/drawn 1/lost 0 out of the first 22 league games of the 2017 season. Then that same day of that 21st win out of 22 Caulfield bizarrely signed Robbie Williams and Cork's results started to go downhill with the exception of the FAI Cup shootout win, while all not Williams fault that signing really did set the tone for the horrifying recruitment for 2018, 2019 and looking likely in 2020 aswell

Probably more to do with Maguire leaving.

joeysoap

City’s ‘best’ signing by far was............ Damien Delaney.

If we lost the 2017 title because of Seanie, Damien Delaney was their gift to us


No forgetting those Twitter (or was it Facebook?) posts. Priceless.

the heathen

joeysoap wrote:

Nor O’Donnell ( captain for a reason) or Horgan. Hoban , McElaney and Boyle haven’t performed as well since returning ( no doubt the same goes for McMillan) But the biggest loss was Finn. And that includes Benson who comes close)

Harsh on Hoban! 42 League goals in the two years since he's returned compared to 34 in the two years before he left.

Another 6 goals in 7 already this season too.

(Although I'd agree that his general play was poor last season but arguably there were mitigating circumstances)

Oat23

the heathen wrote: »

Harsh on Hoban! 42 League goals in the two years since he's returned compared to 34 in the two years before he left.

Another 6 goals in 7 already this season too.

(Although I'd agree that his general play was poor last season but arguably there were mitigating circumstances)

All well and good scoring in the league but Dundalk have bigger ambitions than winning the league and cup. If you want to progress through rounds in Europe you need to be scoring goals and he has managed 3 goals in 14 games. Not good.

the heathen

Oat23 wrote:

All well and good scoring in the league but Dundalk have bigger ambitions than winning the league and cup. If you want to progress through rounds in Europe you need to be scoring goals and he has managed 3 goals in 14 games. Not good.

I agree. I'm only disputing the suggestion that his second term at Dundalk has been less effective than his first. He's pretty much a chocolate fireguard in Europe.

deisedude

joeysoap wrote: »

City’s ‘best’ signing by far was............ Damien Delaney.

If we lost the 2017 title because of Seanie, Damien Delaney was their gift to us


No forgetting those Twitter (or was it Facebook?) posts. Priceless.

To be fair to Delaney he as good as admits his legs were gone now looking back and jokes about it

On Off the ball last night they were talking about this venture Mike Tyson is trying to get going of a champions circuit of retired washed up athletes from different sports boxing, gymnastics etc. Delaney said he already did it during his time at Waterford :pac:

Omackeral

deisedude wrote: »

To be fair to Delaney he as good as admits his legs were gone now looking back and jokes about it

Also scored a cracker in Dalymount a couple of years ago. First ten seconds of this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktoQxo416sI

Cape Clear

the heathen wrote: »

I agree. I'm only disputing the suggestion that his second term at Dundalk has been less effective than his first. He's pretty much a chocolate fireguard in Europe.

Or a three pin plug.

MD1990

https://twitter.com/SSEAirtricityLg/status/1294321801284268034

Dundalk 1 down at ht. Huge half ahead for them

Omackeral

“Dundalk are 5 points behind Shamrock Rovers as things stand”.

No mention of Bohs though!

MD1990

2-0 Waterford. Kurtis Byrne.

Dundalk so poor on the ball. losing it all the time.

Dillonb3

MD1990 wrote: »

2-0 Waterford. Kurtis Byrne.

Dundalk so poor on the ball. losing it all the time.

It's a shocking performance and doesn't bode well next week in Europe. Midfield is completely non existent especially Shields who was very poor before the lockdown

artanevilla

Omackeral wrote: »

“Dundalk are 5 points behind Shamrock Rovers as things stand”.

No mention of Bohs though!

Good, we are better off that way. Sneak up.

deisedude

Is the stream for this game really dark for anyone else?

MD1990

No its working well.
Dundalk have created no clear cut chances so far. appalling stuff. Perth's job must be under threat.

MD1990

2-2

2 goals from Corners from Dundalk. Ryan is a very poor goalkeeper

Oat23

That was a great finish. Very entertaining.

MD1990

Insane last 10 mins.
Dundalk had about 5 great chances to win it. Ryan the keeper too small stuck to his line.

Oduwa done great to stop a waterford counter too he looks a good player

ShamoBuc

Super finish to the game. Very entertaining.

Ohmeha

Barmy last 10 minutes enjoyed that

First 80 mins another confirmation Dundalk are in a big decline, they're lucky the league is poor

prodsc

Any stream from Cork on watchloi?

Oat23

MD1990 wrote: »

Oduwa done great to stop a waterford counter too he looks a good player

Mad pace for someone his size.

dfx-

Two points dropped by Waterford there which is a mad thing to say but the red card and the awful keeper had a huge impact on the last ten minutes

Omackeral wrote: »

“Dundalk are 5 points behind Shamrock Rovers as things stand”.

No mention of Bohs though!

plus it was eight (now seven). Seven points ahead even after Pats and Derry away is a good place to be.

Oat23

Cork v Rovers stream isn't working on WatchLOI. Hopefully it can be sorted.

Ohmeha

prodsc wrote: »

Any stream from Cork on watchloi?

Not working for me either, stuck on Light Up Your Nights

Sure everyone will be watching Barca now

Oat23

Cabinteely v Cobh is being streamed here in case anyone is interested. Seems a good setup. I assume Cabo are doing it themselves.

https://sportscastr.com/stream/86840659

Ocean FM commentary for Cork/Rovers until they sort the stream - https://www.oceanfm.ie/2020/08/14/cork-city-v-sligo-rovers-live-tonight/