Re standing on highway

Conmhara

Hi, so I have to rely on a lift from a co-worker some mornings to get to work. Safest and most logical place to wait is outside my housing estate across the road on the roadside in front of someone's house since that's the side my co-worker comes from and it's the way we're going. This morning the man in the house told me to move and that I can't stand there despite the fact I'm outside the front parameter wall, making no physical contact with said wall nor do I obstruct his driveway in any way.

My question is, is it public roadside and I should be allowed wait there for my required lift for at most 20 minutes OR could it be that his land extends beyond the outer wall up to the yellow road lines?

This whole thing really bothers me because he was essentially telling me to stand in mud where my co-worker can't safely pull over at all

Antares35

Conmhara wrote: »

Hi, so I have to rely on a lift from a co-worker some mornings to get to work. Safest and most logical place to wait is outside my housing estate across the road on the roadside in front of someone's house since that's the side my co-worker comes from and it's the way we're going. This morning the man in the house told me to move and that I can't stand there despite the fact I'm outside the front parameter wall, making no physical contact with said wall nor do I obstruct his driveway in any way.

My question is, is it public roadside and I should be allowed wait there for my required lift for at most 20 minutes OR could it be that his land extends beyond the outer wall up to the yellow road lines?

This whole thing really bothers me because he was essentially telling me to stand in mud where my co-worker can't safely pull over at all

He doesn't own anything beyond his own patch of land. I would have told him where to get off, but I'm a crank. You weren't doing anything wrong.

happyoutscan

Tell him to get ****ed.

GM228

Antares35 wrote: »

He doesn't own anything beyond his own patch of land.

Actually that depends, many homeowners have property rights up to the central point of the roadway (usually more applicable to older or rural property), however it is irrelevant, they can't dictate where you stand in a public place because they can't do anything with it that is inconsistent with the public right of way over it.

Agent Smith

if it's a public road, you should be able to stand there no problem.

if the man in the house doesnt like it... Go all homer on him.



Tbh Photos would make this way easier to determine

Conmhara

Agent Smith wrote: »

if it's a public road, you should be able to stand there no problem.

if the man in the house doesnt like it... Go all homer on him.



Tbh Photos would make this way easier to determine

Good point, here's the spot in question. Thanks for all the feedback everyone

Conmhara

Agent Smith wrote: »

if it's a public road, you should be able to stand there no problem.

if the man in the house doesnt like it... Go all homer on him.



Tbh Photos would make this way easier to determine

Good point! Here's the spot in question

harr

Looks very much like a public road , once you aren’t leaning against his wall or anything not much he can do about it . Explain you are waiting on a lift to work and not actually casing out his house to rob 😂
Some people have little to be giving out about ...

Antares35

GM228 wrote: »

Actually that depends, many homeowners have property rights up to the central point of the roadway (usually more applicable to older or rural property), however it is irrelevant, they can't dictate where you stand in a public place because they can't do anything with it that is inconsistent with the public right of way over it.

Having a right (of parking etc.) doesn't equate to ownership though.

sabat

Antares35 wrote: »

Having a right (of parking etc.) doesn't equate to ownership though.

If you look at the original deeds of Dublin's Georgian houses they will include the land right out to the middle of the street where the coal cellar extends.

Conmhara

sabat wrote: »

If you look at the original deeds of Dublin's Georgian houses they will include the land right out to the middle of the street where the coal cellar extends.

This house isn't that fancy. It's basically a cottage without the pleasant aesthetic. Would you say such a deed could apply in this case?

NUTLEY BOY

GM228 wrote: »

Actually that depends, many homeowners have property rights up to the central point of the roadway (usually more applicable to older or rural property), however it is irrelevant, they can't dictate where you stand in a public place because they can't do anything with it that is inconsistent with the public right of way over it.

Is that our old friend Ad Medium Filum Viae ?

Antares35

sabat wrote: »

If you look at the original deeds of Dublin's Georgian houses they will include the land right out to the middle of the street where the coal cellar extends.

ok.

NUTLEY BOY

The only other thing that occurs to me here is that OP should be careful not to give the complainer any grounds for a complaint of harassment as per S. 10 NFOATP Act 1997.

This is a remote possibility but would be unsurprising given the modern propensity towards overweening entitlement.

LINK http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/26/section/10/enacted/en/html#sec10

GM228

Antares35 wrote: »

Having a right (of parking etc.) doesn't equate to ownership though.

We are not talking about parking rights, actual ownership often extended to the centre line of the roadway especially in older or rural properties, but when taken in charge the LA effectively take on responsibility for the ad medium filum viae which Nutley Boy has mentioned.

GM228

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

Is that our old friend Ad Medium Filum Viae ?

Yes, and any resulting debate on the issue will no doubt result in a seriously sore head.

TheBoyConor

tell him to leave you alone.

Don't explain anything to him. He is not a guard, you don't owe him any explanation for anything, not least standing on a public road.

If he threatens you in any way call the Gardai.

He is probably one of these retired aul bastards with feck all better to do only complain about anything and everything to anyone who will give him a listening ear.

Conmhara

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

The only other thing that occurs to me here is that OP should be careful not to give the complainer any grounds for a complaint of harassment as per S. 10 NFOATP Act 1997.

This is a remote possibility but would be unsurprising given the modern propensity towards overweening entitlement.

LINK http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/26/section/10/enacted/en/html#sec10

That's very informative and I'm glad to be aware of it but thankfully I feel I am well within reasonable excuse to stand there for the limited amount of time that I do and I have absolutely no intention of interfering with his property in any way nor do I intend to cause any distress.

TheBoyConor

You have every bit as much right to stand there as you do to stand on O'Connell Street or any other public place.

Antares35

Conmhara wrote: »

That's very informative and I'm glad to be aware of it but thankfully I feel I am well within reasonable excuse to stand there for the limited amount of time that I do and I have absolutely no intention of interfering with his property in any way nor do I intend to cause any distress.

Your colleague would have probably arrived long before you had finished debating the legal ownership of said land anyway.

D3V!L

Next time he tells you that you can't stand there ask him "or what" ?

Watch him trip over himself or at least incriminate himself in some sort of threat.

Oh and make sure you record it on your phone.

lucalux

Would agree with the posters above who say it's not illegal or wrong to stand and wait there.

I would possibly be aware that if he is an older man, then perhaps he may be a bit worried, albeit it with no grounds in this case, about 'strange' men hanging around his house. There's a lot of fear in older people I know, and they may be fearful more than busybodies...not that busybodies are that rare either!

Could you possible affirm to him that you are no threat, you are off to work, you're not up to anything and that he has no need or no grounds to be moving you on. In a calm but assertive manner? As much as you can in the situation, depending on his reaction ofc

If he kicks off I would definitely record the conversation, but I would repeat the same as above, public highway, public right of way, not on his property etc, but stating clearly that you're not doing anything wrong, not posing any threat, no skulduggery here basically. Not giving any reason for him to suspect anything beyond the facts.

It might defuse the situation, it might not.
You would be covering yourself though.

It's not beyond the realms of possibility that he's had some bad experiences previously, with break-ins or antisocial behaviour, but if you've been clear, and not antagonistic, then any reaction is on him then.

Doop

I'm going to throw my 2c in here with a controversial opinion... I would say it is likely based on your photo that he does own that bit of land. Its not uncommon for older country houses to construct the boundary wall further back than the actually boundary to allow for sight lines/ space to pull in etc etc. The area marked with the 'x' is clearly not been given the same road surface treatment as the are outside the white line.

Either way its not the crux of the issue... I think Lucalux has a fair and reasoned response above.

Conmhara

lucalux wrote: »

Would agree with the posters above who say it's not illegal or wrong to stand and wait there.

I would possibly be aware that if he is an older man, then perhaps he may be a bit worried, albeit it with no grounds in this case, about 'strange' men hanging around his house. There's a lot of fear in older people I know, and they may be fearful more than busybodies...not that busybodies are that rare either!

Could you possible affirm to him that you are no threat, you are off to work, you're not up to anything and that he has no need or no grounds to be moving you on. In a calm but assertive manner? As much as you can in the situation, depending on his reaction ofc

If he kicks off I would definitely record the conversation, but I would repeat the same as above, public highway, public right of way, not on his property etc, but stating clearly that you're not doing anything wrong, not posing any threat, no skulduggery here basically. Not giving any reason for him to suspect anything beyond the facts.

It might defuse the situation, it might not.
You would be covering yourself though.

It's not beyond the realms of possibility that he's had some bad experiences previously, with break-ins or antisocial behaviour, but if you've been clear, and not antagonistic, then any reaction is on him then.

Honestly since Harr mentioned the whole burglary thing I figured the guy was most likely just concerned. There have been a decent handful of break-ins in the area so if that's the case, I'll be happy to clear it up and let him know I understand his concerns seeing that I have shared the same concerns for the past few months.

Anyways, I won't be trying to record anything, even if he does get a bit aggro. I'm not looking to escalate things. I'm just gonna be clear with him if he complains again and hopefully that should be the end of it

BarryD2

Assuming he knows you're just waiting for a lift, there should be no issue at all. If he's a crank, just ignore him. If you think he's vulnerable in some way, just mention that it's good to have someone else there now & then.

Conmhara

Doop wrote: »

I'm going to throw my 2c in here with a controversial opinion... I would say it is likely based on your photo that he does own that bit of land. Its not uncommon for older country houses to construct the boundary wall further back than the actually boundary to allow for sight lines/ space to pull in etc etc. The area marked with the 'x' is clearly not been given the same road surface treatment as the are outside the white line.

Either way its not the crux of the issue... I think Lucalux has a fair and reasoned response above.

Yeah I noticed that as well, hence my initial query

lucalux

Conmhara wrote: »

Honestly since Harr mentioned the whole burglary thing I figured the guy was most likely just concerned. There have been a decent handful of break-ins in the area so if that's the case, I'll be happy to clear it up and let him know I understand his concerns seeing that I have shared the same concerns for the past few months.

Anyways, I won't be trying to record anything, even if he does get a bit aggro. I'm not looking to escalate things. I'm just gonna be clear with him if he complains again and hopefully that should be the end of it

Yeah that's true alright I'd fully agree, recording would be something that can escalate a situation for sure (would only take out a phone myself if it escalated badly tbh).

An assurance to him with some empathy towards his possible fears would be the most likely thing to put his mind at rest, and leave you to get to work in peace! Hope it goes well for you

TheBoyConor

If he has fear or anxienties or any other thing, that is not the OPs problem. I wouldn't be engaging him at all. The OP is under no obligation to talk to him or explain anything to him.

So what if this guy calls the Gardai, what are the Gardai supposed to do? They will not entertain this guy because there is someone waiting for a lift on a public road.

If he gets smart with you then take out your phone and stick it in his face and warn him that, for your own safety, you are recording all further interactions - most of these neighbourhood busybodies get very shy all of a sudden when their behaviour is recorded for other to see.

Conmhara

TheBoyConor wrote: »

If he has fear or anxienties or any other thing, that is not the OPs problem. I wouldn't be engaging him at all. The OP is under no obligation to talk to him or explain anything to him.

So what if this guy calls the Gardai, what are the Gardai supposed to do? They will not entertain this guy because there is someone waiting for a lift on a public road.

If he gets smart with you then take out your phone and stick it in his face and warn him that, for your own safety, you are recording all further interactions - most of these neighbourhood busybodies get very shy all of a sudden when their behaviour is recorded for other to see.

To be clear, I will not stick my phone in his face or record anything. Either we'll talk it out and he backs down or I'll ignore him and remain as polite and non-threatening as possible so that I'm clearly the reasonable one. I don't want trouble, just want to get to work

tayto lover

That’s gas.
I’d love to see him coming out to tell me to move.

He has no right to tell you to move.

Be reasonable - he doesn't own the land but he doesn't have to own it to be concerned about it.

Ould lads reading the Sun each day might think you're a drug mule and that's become the new collection point, and someday you'll want a cup of tea whilst you wait, so you'll break in and beat him to death.

My approach would simply be to knock into him and say hello. Once he sees you're a decent person going about your work life, he likely won't care anymore. Arguing or fighting with him over it doesn't help or benefit anyone. If he's still antagonistic after you talked to him, then you can tell him to feck off, but at least try the polite approach first. Put yourself in other people's shoes

TheBoyConor

Do not approach him and most certainly do not call in and knock on the door.

He could twist it that you were intimidating him or casing the house or something like that.

Do absolutely nothing. tell him you are wating for a lift and then put in your ear phones and let him freak out if he wants to. That is his own problem.

Op is under no obligation to engage with this man at all. He is not a Guard and has no right to challenge you for any information at all.

TheBoyConor

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Do not approach him and most certainly do not call in and knock on the door.

He could twist it that you were intimidating him or casing the house or something like that.

Do absolutely nothing. tell him you are wating for a lift and then put in your ear phones and let him freak out if he wants to. That is his own problem.

Op is under no obligation to engage with this man at all. He is not a Guard and has no right to challenge you for any information at all.

It's called being polite and reasonable. Not every move you make in life has to be from a rule book.

NSAman

Could your friend not give you a call just before he arrives so that it avoids all this unpleasantness, from someone who obviously has NOTHING happening in his life except to complain about someone waiting for a lift???

The road looks like it is public right of way.....it is maintained all the way to his boundary wall and hence tell him to get lost and get laid.. someone is obviously frustrated for some reason..;)

Mr Tickle

Just tell him you're scouting locations for a new Direct Provision Centre/injection site/speed van location/green party HQ/ whatever you think will set him off best.

ooh tell him you want to put a wind turbine in his garden

TheBoyConor

That's it. Fill him full of shít that you are surveying locations for modular injecting booths. Like a phone box type setup.


Mod
NSaman,Mr Tickle and Boy Conor
Ease off there, OK?

Conmhara

Thank you all for your insight and feedback. I feel pretty good about how to handle it.

Mostly I will do nothing but if I am approached again, I will be polite and I will be clear. I will assure him and that should be the end of it. If he persists, I'll just ignore him and carry on minding my own business.

I am done with this thread.

Later days all

nuac

Title amended for clarity

NSAman

nuac wrote: »

Title amended for clarity

Why does Clarity always get these titles amended? Is she a bad at comprehension or sumting'?

Mod
As a lawyer I have always drafted documents in Faith that I will be paid, in Hope that they will work and that Clarity will be apparent to readers more erudite than I.

Agent Smith

having seen the spot, I feel the only sensible option is to start quoting Chris Rea Lyrics whenever he challenges you.

"Hey, i thought i told you not to stand there!"

OP: "We'll I'm standing by a river but the water doesn't flow It boils with every poison you can think of "
OR
OP: "the roads jam up with credit And there's nothing you can do ,It's all just bits of paper flying away from you."
OR
OP: "This ain't no upwardly mobile freeway....Oh no, this is the road...This is the road...This is the road to hell"


For added effect, Have an electric Guitar handy, to strum this out....

Dufflecoat Fanny

You should wear a grim reaper costume every morning from now on

silver2020

Be over pleasant

Let him know that it's the safest place for your colleague to stop and pick you up for work and that you are doing you bit for the environment by getting a lift instead of using an extra car.

Then say, "if you even need a hand with something, just let me know - I can alway come a few minutes early".


Watch him rethink his attitude and he may actually see a positive

Homer

Deleted User wrote: »

It's called being polite and reasonable. Not every move you make in life has to be from a rule book.

Yeah just like this cranky old a*rsehole homeowner is being

Strumms

harr wrote: »

Looks very much like a public road , once you aren’t leaning against his wall or anything not much he can do about it . Explain you are waiting on a lift to work and not actually casing out his house to rob ��
Some people have little to be giving out about ...

Personally I’d think twice about saying fûck all to him except to say you are standing in a public area and if he doesn’t fûck off and stop harassing you that you will call the Gardai. If it escalated that these types of menacing and harassing interactions become regular I’d go ahead and actually do it in front of him. With bullies you need to hit them back twice as hard, take no ****, you have the freedom to stand where you like on a public path, any public path. Because some clown has some strange paranoia about someone interfering with his prize begonias or watching him cut the grass, not your problem...

Marcusm

Conmhara wrote: »

Good point! Here's the spot in question

Is there a footpath on the other side of the road? If yes then you are committing an offence by standing on his side of the road. Pedestrians have a right to process along the road where necessary but not to stand on it per se.

Rodin

Is that an actual road, for cars, that you want to stand on rather than a footpath?

How do you get out of the way should a car want to drive along the road?

Peregrinus

Marcusm wrote: »

Is there a footpath on the other side of the road? If yes then you are committing an offence by standing on his side of the road. Pedestrians have a right to process along the road where necessary but not to stand on it per se.

Standing still in the road, or on the footpath, can be an obstruction, which is not something you are entitled to do on a public road. But the person entitled to complain about that is not the owner of land across which the road runs, or the owner of land adjacent to the road; it's the person trying to use the public road, who is being obstructed.

And simply being stationary in the road or footpath isn't, in itself, obstruction. You'd need to show some actual obstruction resulting.

Always Tired

You should be within your rights to stand there but if he continues to confront you be careful not to get aggressive, even just verbally.

The trespassing laws cover what they call the 'curtilage' of a property and forbid someone acting in a menacing way in that area. What constitutes menacing isnt defined really, basically if the person reporting it says they were scared that is enough.

So I would be sure to always stand facing away from the house (Im guessing you would be anyway) as facing the house could be seen as menacing.

If he comes out of the house again Id just stay facing out towards the road and ignore him, maybe consider taking your phone out and filming any interactions (but not any of the private property) just to cover yourself.

Peregrinus

It's not "property" that has a curtilage; it's buildings, structures, premises, etc. The curtilage of a building is an area of ground attached to the building and forming an enclosure with it; the word is related to "court", "courtyard" and so forth. "Curtilage" does not mean the immediate vicinity of a property.

So the yard, garden, etc attached to a house and bounded by a wall, fence, ditch, hedge or something of the kind is the curtilage of the house. Whatever lies on the other side of the wall, be it field, street or something else, is not.

Quantum Erasure

why not wait on 'your' side of the road, and cross over when your lift comes?

longgonesilver

Does the crime of loitering with intent still exist?