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Shooting in Germany

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    #152
    Englo
    Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭Englo


    It is strange that in a thread about far right terror attacks, which have been growing and growing in Europe and the US, and largely going unreported or underreported, that we are not allowed to discuss other terror attacks of this type. This is not a comain, just an observation - though there is a certain irony there.

    Would it maybe be preferential to moderators if a separate thread was made about the startling rise of far right terrorism in recent years across so much of the western world that could cover multiple incidents?


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    #153
    SnakePlissken
    Registered Users Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭SnakePlissken


    sid waddell wrote: »
    The ideology behind last night's attack and the attack on the mosque in London today is no different from that of Kristallnacht.

    And yet we have posters here downplaying the threat of that ideology.

    There are two possibilities here. Either some lads have never opened a history book in their lives or they are actively out to protect that evil ideology.

    Or the third possibility, you're massively massively overestimating how many on the far right have violent tendencies. Just as whenever an Islamic attack occurs there are calls to acknowledge the majority of Muslims are non violent, equally it should be obvious that for every violent right extremist, there are many millions of people who, though politically are right leaning, are not at all violent fascists. Stating the far right are currently as big a threat as the Nazi party of the 1930s is absolute fantasy.


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    #154
    CinemaGuy45
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,181 ✭✭✭CinemaGuy45


    Englo wrote: »
    It is strange that in a thread about far right terror attacks, which have been growing and growing in Europe and the US, and largely going unreported or underreported, that we are not allowed to discuss other terror attacks of this type. This is not a comain, just an observation - though there is a certain irony there.

    Would it maybe be preferential to moderators if a separate thread was made about the startling rise of far right terrorism in recent years across so much of the western world that could cover multiple incidents?


    We all have different opinions and sometimes we can become a bit entrenched.
    I believe in free speech and open debate.
    I really think to win an argument and the heart and souls of the majority you have to hold the moral high ground.


    When you kill innocent people in cold blood you damage whatever values you claim to hold.

    I think the idea of so called hate speech is a nonsense I 100% believe in free speech.

    However free speech is no use if your not safe from some evil fu***r with a gun.

    What we witnessed last night was murdering bastards.


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    #155
    Melanchthon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭Melanchthon


    Englo wrote: »
    It is strange that in a thread about far right terror attacks, which have been growing and growing in Europe and the US, and largely going unreported or underreported,

    It's hard to say if it's unreported deliberately or just the nature of some of the attacks, the Charlottesville attack that killed the woman was talked about a lot for a single fatality incident of a previously unknown person, on the flipside the fact that it's pretty likely the far right/neo Nazis killed a German politician due to his political statements is rarely mentioned, on the other hand how many Irish people can even name the young Japanese guy that was murdered in Ireland.

    Basically my point is it's hard to know which incidents gain the most media attention.

    Anyway RIP to the poor victims, who since this is Germany are probably going to have been fairly secular Turks targeted by a pathetic looser


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    #156
    JP Liz V1
    Registered Users Posts: 86,778 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    Is this Isis related?
    https://forumofgames.com/




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    #157
    MakingMovies2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 199 ✭✭MakingMovies2


    JP Liz V1 wrote: »
    Is this Isis related?

    No it was some far right impotent angry white male. Murdering innocent people of colour to satiate his evil.


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    #158
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,280 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Auguste Comte wrote: »
    Vandalism, really? So the teenager scrawling I love Sandra's knickers on the back of the 77a is a terrorist now? Or is it only if he scrawled it with his left hand?

    You've lost the plot there Eric.

    clearly represents the very bottom of the scale, but a city can be terrorised by vandalism, you know well i meant it represented basically 0 on my scale but sure mental gymnastics are a great way of deflecting from the reality of my post.


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    #159
    Englo
    Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭Englo


    CinemaGuy45 wrote: »
    We all have different opinions and sometimes we can become a bit entrenched.
    I believe in free speech and open debate.
    I really think to win an argument and the heart and souls of the majority you have to hold the moral high ground.


    When you kill innocent people in cold blood you damage whatever values you claim to hold.

    I think the idea of so called hate speech is a nonsense I 100% believe in free speech.

    However free speech is no use if your not safe from some evil fu***r with a gun.

    What we witnessed last night was murdering bastards.
    I think that is a little reductivist, as it seems to be trying to write this off as "just some bastard", when it is clear that there is a wider pattern emerging, and has been for quite some time.

    I don't even know that the guy was necessarily some inherently evil person, as much as he was clearly very mentally unwell - his claims included having predicted Jurgen Klopps career (which has nothing to do with anything and suggests very scattered thoughts), and that Donald Trump stole his ideas, among numerous other frankly outrageous things.

    It has been pointed out for a long, long time that this is the type of person who both Islamic extremists and far right extremists make a concerted effort to target, and to manipulate by playing off of their depression, anxiety, mania, or other mental health issues. They are typically loners and so do not need much effort to isolate, and are extremely malleable if you know what you are doing. They so have an extremely low sense of self esteem and self worth, and can be easily made to feel like doing something like this would make them important, or make them mean something.

    I dont agree with outright, unabridged free speech with no consequences, otherwise outright lies, slander and libel would be perfectly acceptable. I do generally agree with it however, so long as there are limits to areas like that.

    But I do not agree with radicalization, and that is what we are seeing with so many if these far right attacks - Alex Jones talking points, Trumpism rhetoric (and often outright slogans, even if it is Germans talking about Making America Great which this guy was also on about), George Soros conspiracies, and so on... The same few issues and hang ups show up over and over again in these types of attacks, and pretty much always comes from the same cohort who take up the forefront of the alt right movement, from Brexit to Trumpism, to AfD in Germany and on and on. That's not a coincidence, it's intentional.

    The same goes for the likes of Abu Hamza giving hate speeches in the UK and other Muslim preachers spreading radicalization in certain mosques - I would like these shut down also, though that is far trickier of course to enact than Facebook or Twitter which are private platforms and have been doing a decent job getting rid of extremists on both sides, be it Alex Jones of the Nation of Islam leader.

    Unless we face up to the fact that there is a serious and mounting far right terror threat through Europe and the US much like with Islamist extremist terrorism and try to address it correctly, it is only going to get worse.


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    #160
    Englo
    Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭Englo


    Melanchthon wrote: »
    It's hard to say if it's unreported deliberately or just the nature of some of the attacks, the Charlottesville attack that killed the woman was talked about a lot for a single fatality incident of a previously unknown person, on the flipside the fact that it's pretty likely the far right/neo Nazis killed a German politician due to his political statements is rarely mentioned, on the other hand how many Irish people can even name the young Japanese guy that was murdered in Ireland.

    Basically my point is it's hard to know which incidents gain the most media attention.

    Anyway RIP to the poor victims, who since this is Germany are probably going to have been fairly secular Turks targeted by a pathetic looser
    It's not a media consoira y either to be clear, it's largely got to do with the fact that Muslims usually look and sound different and are from a different part of the world to us, while neo nazis are not so much. This makes the former scarier, and when people are more scared they become more invested, and when they become more invested they buy more papers, click more story links, etc etc.

    I would be really interested to know if the reverse is true in the middle east (Islamic terrorism often glossed over because it doesn't sell like terrorism from 'others').


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    #161
    sid waddell
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,664 ✭✭✭sid waddell


    SnakePlissken wrote: »
    Or the third possibility, you're massively massively overestimating how many on the far right have violent tendencies. Just as whenever an Islamic attack occurs there are calls to acknowledge the majority of Muslims are non violent, equally it should be obvious that for every violent right extremist, there are many millions of people who, though politically are right leaning, are not at all violent fascists. Stating the far right are currently as big a threat as the Nazi party of the 1930s is absolute fantasy.


    There is literally no similarity and no comparison between fascist scum and 1.8 billion who happen to be Muslims, the vast, vast, vast majority of them ordinary, decent people, as are those who happen to be brought up in every other religion.

    Far right and fascist ideology is something that is entirely chosen. Every single person who subscribes to far right ideology is a threat in their own way.

    There is no such thing as an ordinary decent Nazi or an ordinary decent fascist or ordinary decent far right ideologist, much as you might protest there is.

    Jesus Christ, talk about false equivalence.

    How many will actually follow through and commit terrorism is not the issue. Terrorism like last night's atrocity is the entirely logical end point of the ideology. The ideology is the exact same as the Nazis.

    The AfD are a fascist party. The only thing that is holding them back is lack of support. If their support rises, they will be an existential threat to Germany and especially to ethnic minorities.

    The lesson of World War II was "never again" - NOT "we must not reference the Nazis ever again, or at least until another Holocaust happens".

    The latter is the abomination of history the far right push relentlessly. They must be called out relentlessly, but the reaction to neo-fascism across the world and from the so called liberal media has been utterly lamentable.

    The far right and far right ideology has no raison d'etre except sadism and destruction of human lives. Those who partake in such ideology are scum.


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    #162
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,280 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    So back on topic, this shooting was committed by a lone wolf for non political reasons as far as were aware currently, and its one of the few thats not in any way associated with islam......continue.


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    #163
    MakingMovies2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 199 ✭✭MakingMovies2


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    So back on topic, this shooting was committed by a lone wolf for non political reasons as far as were aware currently, and its one of the few thats not in any way associated with islam......continue.

    Other than the fact the place the attack was committed is commonly associated with middle eastern and Turkish people and the police suspect he was motivated by right wing bigotry, there's not a lot to go on.


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    #164
    sid waddell
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,664 ✭✭✭sid waddell


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    So back on topic, this shooting was committed by a lone wolf for non political reasons as far as were aware currently, and its one of the few thats not in any way associated with islam......continue.
    This is literally a complete lie and an attempt to whitewash the far right motive for the atrocity.

    Complete lies being the stock in trade of the far right.


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    #165
    MakingMovies2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 199 ✭✭MakingMovies2


    Graboid wrote: »
    Sad but there has always been crazy people who murder others.

    I'm sure you'll say that the next time there's an Islamic extremist attack committed


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    #166
    CinemaGuy45
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,181 ✭✭✭CinemaGuy45


    sid waddell wrote: »
    There is literally no similarity and no comparison between fascist scum and 1.8 billion who happen to be Muslims, the vast, vast, vast majority of them ordinary, decent people, as are those who happen to be brought up in every other religion.

    Far right and fascist ideology is something that is entirely chosen. Every single person who subscribes to far right ideology is a threat in their own way.

    There is no such thing as an ordinary decent Nazi or an ordinary decent fascist or ordinary decent far right ideologist, much as you might protest there is.

    Jesus Christ, talk about false equivalence.

    How many will actually follow through and commit terrorism is not the issue. Terrorism like last night's atrocity is the entirely logical end point of the ideology. The ideology is the exact same as the Nazis.

    The AfD are a fascist party. The only thing that is holding them back is lack of support. If their support rises, they will be an existential threat to Germany and especially to ethnic minorities.

    The lesson of World War II was "never again" - NOT "we must not reference the Nazis ever again, or at least until another Holocaust happens".

    The latter is the abomination of history the far right push relentlessly. They must be called out relentlessly, but the reaction to neo-fascism across the world and from the so called liberal media has been utterly lamentable.

    The far right and far right ideology has no raison d'etre except sadism and destruction of human lives. Those who partake in such ideology are scum.


    When I left school I had a far left believe system in my head.
    I struggled to fit in and suffered horrendous bullying.
    Low on self confidence I though a society being more diverse would be more kind and accepting.
    The left and socialism sounded like a paradise on Earth to my young mind.

    Fast forward to present day and I have swapped my thinking to a right wing outlook.

    Welfare has a way of causing a cancer in society everybody only seems interested
    in what they can get for themselves.

    Regardless of who carries out these evil acts this the reality of far left living is a million miles away from the idea I had in my young head.

    Left Wing thinking has given the world Gulags Killing Fields great purges and poverty.

    I do know 20 years ago the idea of people being shot in random terror attacks on the streets would have been hard to believe.

    Whatever the EU stands for it is clearly broken.


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    #167
    sid waddell
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,664 ✭✭✭sid waddell


    CinemaGuy45 wrote: »
    When I left school I had a far left believe system in my head.
    I struggled to fit in and suffered horrendous bullying.
    Low on self confidence I though a society being more diverse would be more kind and accepting.
    The left and socialism sounded like a paradise on Earth to my young mind.

    Fast forward to present day and I have swapped my thinking to a right wing outlook.

    Welfare has a way of causing a cancer in society everybody only seems interested
    in what they can get for themselves.

    Regardless of who carries out these evil acts this the reality of far left living is a million miles away from the idea I had in my young head.

    Left Wing thinking has given the world Gulags Killing Fields great purges and poverty.

    I do know 20 years ago the idea of people being shot in random terror attacks on the streets would have been hard to believe.

    Whatever the EU stands for it is clearly broken.

    Your ideology, your mode of "thinking", led you to "like" a post that claimed that in 100 years' time historians will see the far right piece of shiit who committed last night's atrocity as a "freedom fighter".

    I think anybody who isn't face down in a far right rabbit hole can see how much "legitimacy" such an insane ideology has.

    None.


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    #168
    MakingMovies2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 199 ✭✭MakingMovies2


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    when I read your posts I read them in sids voice, it makes them more funny than conspiracy theories about a non existent far right should be.

    The non existent far right that killed 10 people last night? Get a grip


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    #169
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 76,577 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    sid waddell wrote: »
    Your ideology, your mode of "thinking", led you to "like" a post that claimed that in 100 years' time historians will see the far right piece of shiit who committed last night's atrocity as a "freedom fighter".

    I think anybody who isn't face down in a far right rabbit hole can see the "legitimacy" of such an insane ideology.
    Threadbanned for ignoring mod instruction and repeatedly attacking the poster rather than the post


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    #170
    Englo
    Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭Englo


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    So back on topic, this shooting was committed by a lone wolf for non political reasons as far as were aware currently, and its one of the few thats not in any way associated with islam......continue.
    Eric, I see you posted this immediately after it was found out that you were making up false claims about posters reporting other people's posts. The best way to deflect from that is not to be dishonest, which your post appears to be, if it is not simply wildly uninformed.

    We all know this terror attack was politically motivated - it even had a manifesto of his political aims, to name just a few - talk of the deep state (the guy has a bit of a hang up on Trumpist points like the 'deep state'), wanted to exterminate all inhabitants of over 24 countries and committing genocide against about half of Germans who are not 'purebreeds' (stop me if any of this sounds familiar). The interior minister of Hesse has also said that police believe he was motivated by far right extremism.

    What should be focused on is what drove him to such radicalization that he would do something like this, because like most Islamic or far right terrorists, it appears the man was very clearly not well in the head.


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    #171
    SnakePlissken
    Registered Users Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭SnakePlissken


    sid waddell wrote: »
    There is literally no similarity and no comparison between fascist scum and 1.8 billion who happen to be Muslims, the vast, vast, vast majority of them ordinary, decent people.

    I can understand why you feel such a way if you believe everyone who is politically right leaning is quite literally a fascist and a Nazi, most people have the good sense to know that they are not.


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    #172
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 76,577 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    SnakePlissken wrote: »
    I can understand why you feel such a way if you believe everyone who is politically right leaning is quite literally a fascist and a Nazi, most people have the good sense to know that they are not.
    They are threadbanned, so please do not respond to their posts as they cannot respond further


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    #173
    Auguste Comte
    Registered Users Posts: 1,143 ✭✭✭Auguste Comte


    CinemaGuy45 wrote: »




    I do know 20 years ago the idea of people being shot in random terror attacks on the streets would have been hard to believe.

    Really? When I was growing up this very thing was happening on a weekly basis here in Ireland. Why would it be hard to believe?


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    #174
    Sawduck
    Registered Users Posts: 2,712 ✭✭✭Sawduck


    Was it just the one guy or was another terrorist involved, its horrible to see stuff like this happening


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    #175
    SnakePlissken
    Registered Users Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭SnakePlissken


    Sawduck wrote: »
    Was it just the one guy or was another terrorist involved, its horrible to see stuff like this happening

    It looks like it was the one attacker, this is usually the case when it comes to right wing acts of terror.


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    #176
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 76,577 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    I've just deleted nearly 50 posts that ignored my prior instruction to stick to the topic

    The following posters are also now threadbanned for repeatedly ignoring the warning:

    Graboid
    MakingMovies2

    A few more will be joining them if they continue to ignore mod warnings

    Any questions PM me - do not respond to this warning in-thread


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    #177
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 40,236 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    CinemaGuy45 wrote: »
    I do know 20 years ago the idea of people being shot in random terror attacks on the streets would have been hard to believe.

    No they wouldn't. It's not a new phenomenon. Or did you sleep through "the troubles"?

    UK weren't immune either.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings

    Germany have had their fair share of mass shooting and killings.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erfurt_school_massacre

    That's 3 off the top of my head.

    They are not left or right, they are just cowards, like the shooting last night, just a cowardly scum bag.


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    #178
    Harika
    Registered Users Posts: 4,460 ✭✭✭Harika


    If you wonder why the shooter picked a Sisha bar.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/lgbeutin/status/1230496011996606464

    Some recent posters from the AFD claiming mass rapes taking place there and throwing mud in general on them.


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    #179
    Nijmegen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    Looking at the guys ramblings, this is an interesting one. He’s clearly got fascist racial ideology down. I know it’s practically a meme that when a white suprematist commits an attack like this it’s classed as “mental illness”, but the guy was also fairly clearly mentally ill - admitting to hearing voices all his life and so on.

    I don’t think that the fascist racial ideology and the mental illness are mutually exclusive. This guy was open to be radicalised, and he was likely radicalised by the normalisation of racism from people in political places of influence (the AFD in Germany, what we see in other countries particularly the US.) So he is both a terrorist and an example of how race baiting from those in leadership can seriously move to help radicalise someone who is open to radicalisation.

    The pervasive hate we now have in public discourse did not exist at the bare naked surface a decade or two ago. For most people open to listening to or spouting it, it just allows them to be d-heads in little ways. And then you have people like this guy who go down the rabbit hole and don’t emerge till it’s time to release their manifesto and murder a load of innocent people.

    And then we get threads like this arguing over whether the sky is blue and trying to score body counts.

    Troubling times we live in.


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    #180
    Englo
    Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭Englo


    Harika wrote: »
    If you wonder why the shooter picked a Sisha bar.



    Some recent posters from the AFD claiming mass rapes taking place there and throwing mud in general on them.
    It does explain why AFD were out like lightning to claim the terrorist was not right wing.

    But this also begs the question that right wing people (including I would assume, many of those in this thread) often ask after an Islamic attack, as to why everyone who considers themselves to be on the right side of the aisle, both everyday followers and public figures, hasn't come out to condemn this and to apologise in behalf of their political beliefs?

    Link to the terrorists manifesto for any interested - frask.de/bekennerschreiben-tobias-rathjen-hanau-schiesserei-hanau-midnight


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    #181
    Melanchthon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭Melanchthon


    Englo wrote: »
    It's not a media consoira y either to be clear, it's largely got to do with the fact that Muslims usually look and sound different and are from a different part of the world to us, while neo nazis are not so much. This makes the former scarier, and when people are more scared they become more invested, and when they become more invested they buy more papers, click more story links, etc etc.

    I would be really interested to know if the reverse is true in the middle east (Islamic terrorism often glossed over because it doesn't sell like terrorism from 'others').

    Maybe slightly but I think your looking too much at America where that's likely more true just look at the numbers across the water in Britain between the two sides.
    Anyway that's not meaning to downplay this attack as it was clearly extreme right inspired, I don't agree with restrictions on free peace but I do see that mentally damaged people are being used as prey for the most extreme of either side, again look at the UK and their problems with prison radicalisation.


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