Picard 1x05 - "Stardust City Rag" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

tromtipp

Captain Picard is still in there - we saw a few glimpses of him, notably in that exchange with Seven - he'll be back soon. Recovery from (or survival of) PTSD seems to be one of the themes of this 10-parter, explored through a range of individuals and societies each with its own trauma. I'm okay with that.

Bobtheman

I Must read the Picard book but at the moment it's about 15 euro.
It's a shame that other novels where he is married to Beverly with a kid just get tossed aside??
I don't read many of them. Perhaps one every two years but still.
As for Picard now compared to TNG or the movies- he is considerably older and has been tossed aside by Starfleet. Thus I expect him to be mellower but he is still Jean luc at heart.
It's a shame that at least one other member of the TNG cast can't be a regular. TNG was an ensemble cast.

JayRoc

Stark wrote: »

Well that opening scene should give the sensitive souls who complained about the decapitation scene last week something to talk about.

I'm definitely not one of those sensitive souls, but I found it hard to give the first few minutes after the "eye" scene my full attention, I found it quite jarring. Gratuitous even.

pah

JayRoc wrote: »

I'm definitely not one of those sensitive souls, but I found it hard to give the first few minutes after the "eye" scene my full attention, I found it quite jarring. Gratuitous even.

Yes it's unnecessary and untrek-like but are we not blessed with this streaming format where we can get a fuçking R rated Star Trek. Fuçk you Tarantino

Blazer

Enjoying it ...definitely better than the trash called Discovery but I wish it happened 10 years earlier.
Like someone said Stewart is 80 years old now. I feel like he's just dialing it in. Jeri Ryan on the other hand.
When I saw Seven come into it last week I was thinking another half assed cameo but she blew me away.
Maybe they should have done a 7 of 9 series rather than Picard and having him do a cameo instead.

AllForIt

Rawr wrote: »

Bizzare standoff and Seven's revenge: Seven getting revenge made perfect sense. Seven killing the evil Freecloud lady made sense. But setting herself up to die in the casino (off screen, so not for certain) didn't make sense. She had plenty of a chance to kill her before their escape. Also, I was never a fan of that shot where she brandishing two phaser rifles as if the were smaller hand weapons. They were going for bad-ass action hero moment, but it just looked silly. Could they at least pretend that those props had some weight to them?

Why would they (phaser rifels) have weight to them. How can you say weapons of that futuristic nature necessarily have to be heavy. Do you know something about phaser technology we don't know : )

Kirby

Evade wrote: »

Going to try this without googling.

Jeri Ryan was married to a republican Chicago assemblyman. While he was running for election (and was supposedly a sure thing) against Obama, who was a newcomer at the time, Ryan and the assemblyman were going through a divorce. Ssome insight into their personal lives, I want to say it was a fetish but I'm not sure, was revealed through the divorce proceedings and tarnished his reputation. Obama won kickstarting his his political career.

He took her to sex/swingers clubs and kept asking her to participate. She wasn't into it and is the primary reason why they divorced according to her.

You have to wonder why a career politician would risk something like that. Stuff like that never stays secret especially as you climb the ladder.

Stark

AllForIt wrote: »

Why would they (phaser rifels) have weight to them. How can you say weapons of that futuristic nature necessarily have to be heavy. Do you know something about phaser technology we don't know : )

In the previous series, people were always shown using two hands to hold them. Though probably more an accurate aim thing.

In any case, implausible it may seem from the barrage of weapons fire aimed in her direction, I don't think we've seen the last of Seven. They would have shown in if they were actually killing her off.

muckwarrior

AllForIt wrote: »

What stood out for me was the performance of Jeri Ryan. How ironic. I always thought she was a bit too stiff in Voyager, and you could put that down to Borg implants, but my golly she out acted everyone else on the series so far.

Her character was a bit stiff, but there were a handful scenes and episodes where she was allowed break from her normal character and proved that she was actually an excellent actress. A bit ironic that someone clearly hired for their looks turned out to be one of the best actors on the show.

seamus

Sad Professor wrote: »

I'm on the verge of giving up on this show. The thing i can't get past is that Picard is almost totally unrecognisable as the Picard from TNG. Not only do the writers not seem to have any grasp of the character, but Stewart seems to have forgotten how to play him.

I can appreciate this, but I have mentioned before that like 15-18 years have passed in-universe.

If you were to encounter someone from that long ago, I'm sure they'd say you'd changed. They'd still see the essence of the person you were, but you'd be very different.

There was a relatively long discussion about this; could have been here; about how TNG finished with Picard lamenting his stiff-collared approach to the captain's chair and sitting down to play cards with his crew/friends. Stewart had remarked that in many ways Picard's transformation mirrored his own - when he started TNG he was a stuffy by-the-book actor who had no time for dossing. But by the end he had discovered a more open and playful side of himself.
Even between TNG and the films, we saw Picard progress into a more sentimental person.

The series itself is hinting at this with its flashbacks to be fair. Showing us why Picard is the man is he now and not the man at the end of TNG/Nemesis.

On the bad French acting thing, one has to remember that Picard (not Stewart) has form for ham acting on the Holodeck. I always hated the Dixon Hill episodes and Picard's bad acting, and while the French pirate part did make me cringe, it's not out of character.

Goodshape

I enjoyed Picard's hammy acting. Was played for a bit of a laugh on the telly but that was fine, it was amusing, and it seemed to suit the scene and setting perfectly well.

Also, as well as the Dixon Hill stuff, he's also got form for this sort of thing from playing Galen in Gambit. That performance always annoyed me as being too OTT.

Greyjoy

This was a big improvement on last week's episode. However the overuse of flashbacks is getting to be annoying at this stage.
I think the Icheb dissection scene would have worked better if they kept it for when 7 of 9 confronts the crime boss rather than the opening scene. It would have made that scene land with more 'weight'.

H3llR4iser

All in all, I've enjoyed episode 5 - the ill-thought "heist" added that bit of goofy humor ST had in the past and that's been sorely missing in Discovery. Turns out Legol...ehrm...Elnor can handle firearms.

JayRoc wrote: »

I'm definitely not one of those sensitive souls, but I found it hard to give the first few minutes after the "eye" scene my full attention, I found it quite jarring. Gratuitous even.

pah wrote: »

Yes it's unnecessary and untrek-like but are we not blessed with this streaming format where we can get a fuçking R rated Star Trek. Fuçk you Tarantino

I'm not sure I'm getting what you're talking about - the "eye extraction" scene? That's "mild" at worst by current standards - and Star Trek had its fair share of "gore" in the past, just it wasn't rendered as well for technological reasons. Yet, we had crew fused into bulkheads, surgery scenes, transporter incidents, assassinations, a Klingon ship filled to the brim with floating blood, ribcage chewing parasites and THAT famous kill scene.

Stark wrote: »

In the previous series, people were always shown using two hands to hold them. Though probably more an accurate aim thing.

In any case, implausible it may seem from the barrage of weapons fire aimed in her direction, I don't think we've seen the last of Seven. They would have shown in if they were actually killing her off.

Eh...putting the super-nerd hat on here, but she IS still physiologically Borg; She was shown tossing people around in Voyager...even assuming a phaser rifle weighs in the same region of a current ballistic rifle, she doesn't have the expected strength for a woman her size. As for her survival in the situation...she was also shown as still being capable to adapt to weapon fire like a drone...just saying.

sutty

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Eh...putting the super-nerd hat on here, but she IS still physiologically Borg; She was shown tossing people around in Voyager...even assuming a phaser rifle weighs in the same region of a current ballistic rifle, she doesn't have the expected strength for a woman her size. As for her survival in the situation...she was also shown as still being capable to adapt to weapon fire like a drone...just saying.

Have to agree but then it leads to some other questions from established character arcs. Two of which kind of annoyed my or at least made me notice straight away.

1) Its pointed out in Voyager that due to her borg physiology that she cant hold her dink at all. She got wasted off one glass of Champagne. Yet in this she downs a glass of Bourbon
2) In the episode that established her maternal instinct over Icheb, the she had a fail-safe to shutdown her cortical node if she experiences to much human emotion/Individuality. But its not even mentioned if she undergoes a procedure to get this fixed with the Dr. Would have been nice to reference this as to how she is now completely human.


I'm finding this show to be very lacking of hope and the feel of Star Trek. Its grand but just seems to be missing that feeling of the best of humanity that its meant to embody.

I also dont like how everyone seems to dump on Picard. I mean he has only shown a bit of the real Picard once and that was because Elnor decapitated someone in front of him. At no point does he just stop people who are dumping on him. He just seems to sit there and take it like a dithering old man. Kinda disappointed in that.


Also longtime since I have been on here. Good to see someone from the old days still around

ilovesmybrick

sutty wrote: »

But its not even mentioned if she undergoes a procedure to get this fixed with the Dr. Would have been nice to reference this as to how she is now completely human.

As far as I remember she has it removed somewhere in season 7 to follow her relationship with Chakotay. I can't remember the exact episode, somewhere later in the season. (the finale, Endgame!)

Evade

AllForIt wrote: »

1) Its pointed out in Voyager that due to her borg physiology that she cant hold her dink at all. She got wasted off one glass of Champagne. Yet in this she downs a glass of Bourbon

That was a bad reaction to synthohol it's possible she has a better tolerance for real alcohol.

seamus

I believe the canon is that synthehol for humans is a bit like cigarettes; there's a brief euphoria and general good feeling, but it doesn't last long and can be easily nullified by a hypospray if necessary.

It would make sense in Seven's case if her hybrid physiology could still handle alcohol like a human, but not synthehol.

There have been so many little nuggets of canon in this series, that I'd be surprised if the bourbon bit wasn't an intentional nod to Seven's problem with synthehol.

Stark

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

As far as I remember she has it removed somewhere in season 7 to follow her relationship with Chakotay. I can't remember the exact episode, somewhere later in the season. (the finale, Endgame!)

Or she picked a relationship with the dullest guy on the ship to avoid being over stimulated :pac:

ilovesmybrick

Stark wrote: »

Or she picked a relationship with the dullest guy on the ship to avoid being over stimulated :pac:

Maybe that's what happened to their relationship.

1. Starts weird relationship with Chakotay
2. Has her cortical implant adjusted so she can feel the full range of emotions in her new relationship
3. Realises Chakotay is dull as f**k
4. Leaves Chakotay because he's dull as f**k
5. Pursues a wild life of adventure on the frontiers

odyssey06

Stark wrote: »

Or she picked a relationship with the dullest guy on the ship to avoid being over stimulated :pac:

And on Voyager there was some competition for that title

pah

seamus wrote: »

I believe the canon is that synthehol for humans is a bit like cigarettes; there's a brief euphoria and general good feeling, but it doesn't last long and can be easily nullified by a hypospray if necessary.

It would make sense in Seven's case if her hybrid physiology could still handle alcohol like a human, but not synthehol.

There have been so many little nuggets of canon in this series, that I'd be surprised if the bourbon bit wasn't an intentional nod to Seven's problem with synthehol.

Do you honestly believe the writers on this show give 2 sh1ts about canon?

Bobtheman

Unfortunately I think you are right about some disregard for Canon but obviously they can't disregard it all.

silverharp

Bobtheman wrote: »

Unfortunately I think you are right about some disregard for Canon but obviously they can't disregard it all.

Canon is now the Netflix episode guide :pac:

FGR

pah wrote: »

Do you honestly believe the writers on this show give 2 sh1ts about canon?

The writers have to print their scripts on something afterall :pac: !

I know there's a lot of research that has to be done as regards canon but why not get a group of pure Trek-lovers in to do that job? Many would do it for very little money for the experience alone!

I do enjoy the nod to canon - but it's disappointing when it's blatantly ignored on other occasions.

Vulcans are meant to be significantly stronger than humans, Klingons the same yet humans often overpower them, the colour of blood on some species, the whole 'can't go to warp in a solar system' thing in DS9, the whole Warp 10 evolution thing (don't get me started..) etc..

silverharp

Did they do 7’s character a bit of a disservice , why would be relegated to schlepping around the outer rim of the Federation, she would have had fairly unique knowledge of the Borg , wouldn’t she naturally have ended up working for Star Fleet or some research area?

Evade

Was she a ranger before Icheb was killed? Moving to the fringes and engaging in a self destructive occupation isn't unheard of when you lose a family member.

pah

silverharp wrote: »

Did they do 7’s character a bit of a disservice

Yes. But hey, it's edgy and dark.

Picard is the one being done a disservice here IMO.

His character as we knew him and as we left him after TNG and the movies would never have walked away from something that he truly believed in. No matter what small impact he could have made by himself outside of Starfleet and the federation he would have continued the evacuation in some shape or form.

If he had truly changed then it should be explained better as that type of core values shift has not been earned by this show through the mere passage of time. It's lazy as fuçk.

The world has changed the federation has changed, Picard has changed. FINE Show us how and why and I'll probably buy into it. If you tell me it's "just because" then fuçk off writers.

Very confusing having Dana troy come back as a different character. I only copped they were different characters when Picard didn't recognise her.

Rawr

FGR wrote: »

I know there's a lot of research that has to be done as regards canon but why not get a group of pure Trek-lovers in to do that job? Many would do it for very little money for the experience alone!

I can't remember when, or too many details, but apparently the Discovery staff brought on some kind of Canon Expert, or essentially some kind of super-fan who knew a lot about the canon of Star Trek.

I'm not sure if that was just some kind of lie designed to win over canon purists to Discovery, or that they had actually brought on such an expert...and then ignored them....

Rawr

Rawr wrote: »

I can't remember when, or too many details, but apparently the Discovery staff brought on some kind of Canon Expert, or essentially some kind of super-fan who knew a lot about the canon of Star Trek.

I'm not sure if that was just some kind of lie designed to win over canon purists to Discovery, or that they had actually brought on such an expert...and then ignored them....

I find that difficult to believe.

Goodshape

At the risk of opening the can-o-worms, has there really been that much canon violation? Like, much more than what we should be used to form the TNG->DS9->Voy->Movies run?

Also things can just change over the course of nearly 20 years.

And the money/no-money thing has always been wishy-washy.

Goodshape

Goodshape wrote: »

At the risk of opening the can-o-worms, has there really been that much canon violation? Like, much more than what we should be used to form the TNG->DS9->Voy->Movies run?

Also things can just change over the course of nearly 20 years.

And the money/no-money thing has always been wishy-washy.

Picard acting out of character is my biggest criticism.

Evade

Picard, so far, is better than STD on the canon front. There are some instances of what seems laziness or not caring like Romulan disruptors not being green, at least the newer ones. Some instances of just weird like having a super secret secret police on top of the Tal Shiar. I'm not sure if the story would have been any different if the Tal Shiar were the anti AI group (this attitude is canon bending too) and Bean Uí Romuláin was a former member of the Romulan fleet with some inside knowledge of the Tal Shiar. In fact they could have made her Dizzy Flores from Nemesis. Other things like Federation Xenophobia are plausible, just badly executed.

Goodshape

Deleted User wrote: »

Picard acting out of character is my biggest criticism.

It does seem like Patick Stewart has taken over to a large extent. Not sure that counts as breaking canon though. Again, it's been 20 years. People can change.

I find it difficult because 20 years ago, I "knew" Picard much more than I knew P.Stew. Now that's kinda been flipped. It's difficult to see this older Picard and not be reminded of friendly old Patrick Stewart having a laugh on Graham Norton, or posting Twitter selfies with his BFF Ian McKellen.

But again, not really a canon issue. And Picard changed plenty between the series and the movies too. Arguably he changed a lot from Encounter at Farpoint to All Good Things..., only we got to see it happening that time.


Could you imagine if you met a character like Worf, Riker, or Data just once in Encounter at Farpoint, then they popped up again in Season 7? Huge difference in how those characters were portrayed. And it's not even like TNG cared much about character progression.

pixelburp

Picard is a different man, I think it's a fair observation & it's hard to ignore as the series has unfolded, but for me the simple reduction I've made to get around that difference has boiled down to "he's old, and riddled with regret of friendships unnourished, or decisions made".

When you think about it, TNG ended with a bittersweet moment really: of a man realising he spent years ignoring friends right there in front of him; then only a few years later from that, he watched one of those friends - whom he admired a great deal anyway - die in a moment of sacrifice. If there's such a thing as Survivor's Guilt, then surely there's an equivalent breakdown had over someone living due to the sacrifice of another. And a friend at that. As a memorial, I can see someone living in the past, indulging in remembering a friendship stronger than it was, if only for yourself.

Sure, none of this is on-screen and there's definitely minus points towards the writers for not (yet?) putting these subtleties forward as a motivating factor in the personality change, but to my mind, we're watching a nonagenarian grasping at some sense of closure for years wasted. What's the OAP equivalent of a mid-life crisis? End-Of-Life crisis?

pah

pixelburp wrote: »

.

Sure, none of this is on-screen and there's definitely minus points towards the writers for not (yet?) putting these subtleties forward as a motivating factor in the personality change, but to my mind, we're watching a nonagenarian grasping at some sense of closure for years wasted. What's the OAP equivalent of a mid-life crisis? End-Of-Life crisis?

They spend enough time writing pointless exposition, they could easily develop this a bit more.

Greyjoy

pah wrote: »

They spend enough time writing pointless exposition, they could easily develop this a bit more.

From what I've heard on Trek podcasts seems like a lot of the explanation for Picard's change of character in the intervening years has been contained in the tie-in novel "Last Best Hope". But for my money that's a huge cop-out on the part of the tv show writers.

Bobtheman

pixelburp wrote: »

Picard is a different man, I think it's a fair observation & it's hard to ignore as the series has unfolded, but for me the simple reduction I've made to get around that difference has boiled down to "he's old, and riddled with regret of friendships unnourished, or decisions made".

When you think about it, TNG ended with a bittersweet moment really: of a man realising he spent years ignoring friends right there in front of him; then only a few years later from that, he watched one of those friends - whom he admired a great deal anyway - die in a moment of sacrifice. If there's such a thing as Survivor's Guilt, then surely there's an equivalent breakdown had over someone living due to the sacrifice of another. And a friend at that. As a memorial, I can see someone living in the past, indulging in remembering a friendship stronger than it was, if only for yourself.

Sure, none of this is on-screen and there's definitely minus points towards the writers for not (yet?) putting these subtleties forward as a motivating factor in the personality change, but to my mind, we're watching a nonagenarian grasping at some sense of closure for years wasted. What's the OAP equivalent of a mid-life crisis? End-Of-Life crisis?

Really brilliant post. Picard in TNG was in his 40s. This guy is 79. He has moved on. They can't spend forever on exposition. It's a short enough aeries. Plus they had the comics for those who didn't want to Wade through the book. No matter what you put out people will knock it

Evade

Bobtheman wrote: »

Really brilliant post. Picard in TNG was in his 40s. This guy is 79. He has moved on. They can't spend forever on exposition. It's a short enough aeries. Plus they had the comics for those who didn't want to Wade through the book. No matter what you put out people will knock it

Picard was 59 in Encounter at Farpoint and is 94 in Picard.

Demonique

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/112608642#Comment_112608642

Manu wasnt approached to play Icheb, he had no idea Icheb was going to be killed off and flipped out on twitter when the episode aired

As soon as Picard was announced he started campaigning for Icheb to be on the show

The reason Icheb was killed off was because when Discovery's Anthony Rapp (who plays Paul Stamets) came forward about being molested by Kevin Spacey as a teen Manu attacked him on twitter, he called him a whiner and said he would have fcuked Spacey if he'd been in Rapp's position

He's also been creepy about Jeri Ryan on stage at conventions

The general consensus is that Icheb wouldnt have been in Picard at all if Manu hadnt been begging to be on the show

He was still whining about Icheb being killed off 2 years later and started campaigning to be on Prodigy instead