How to fix antisocial areas

Clashmore

vriesmays wrote: »

Not all social housing, Waterford has an estate full of students renting. Was a nightmare a few years back.

Still is an absolute nightmare and only getting worse. Friends of ours (a young family) live there and hate it

BanditLuke

saabsaab wrote: »

How about evicting those families don't pay their rent that are repeat criminals in their area. I know some here will say you can't be doing that but the 99% of ordinary people in these estates would be delighted. What would happen to them you may ask. They can sign up for housing provision somewhere else in the country and a law abiding family can be taken off the homeless list.

I don't think there is a single person in the country who would disagree with that besides the scummers themselves. Anti social families should not be allowed to avail of social housing like hard working families do. We have circa 50/50 mix of social and affordable in my area and it work brilliantly but there are two families in particular who need shooting into space.

handlemaster

Graces7 wrote: »

Ah Big Brother?

Nothing to hide nothing to fear . This is about catching and stopping crime.

creditcarder

Graces7 wrote: »

An excellent idea often mooted but never implemented

There is a scheme in the UK where repeat offenders are sent to a tough army camp to learn discipline and respect from really tough sergeants .. Give the army something to do.

Let's be careful and not use it as punishment. These lads need masculinity outside of some thug who was badly raised himself. Give them structure, healthy food and a good male to learn from, and they could be okay.



Or, htey could still use the skills to have steady income for themselves and earn more money through crime than they would elsewhere.

L1011

Graces7 wrote: »

An excellent idea often mooted but never implemented

There is a scheme in the UK where repeat offenders are sent to a tough army camp to learn discipline and respect from really tough sergeants .. Give the army something to do.

Because tough military training never psychologically damaged anyone (who wasn't already potentially problematic at that), of course...

listermint

Some of the answers so far on the thread are ......Prison time and sentences.... I mean
.

The only way to stop antisocial is to get kids at a young age to have pride in their area. Like the age of 5 through to 10.

Watched a program on channel 4 recently one of those home renovation ones and they guy doing the house was doing it all himself. He was a local guy and very much involved in the area.

One thing that struck me was he was showing the camera crew around the locality it was a heavily social housing area in the UK and he showed them a roundabout and it's roads leading off it . That he had built some 17 years previously. But there was blocks on it with the names of all the school kids on the roundabout. He had the kids help him in conjunction with the school.

The roundabout was immaculate and the roads off it. He also bumped into a your twenty something walking by pushing a pram and randomly said oh my name's on that roundabout . She was on the way to the shop and said she has great respect for the local guy.


You need to change mindsets. It's hearts and minds. Oppression never works.

Graces7

creditcarder wrote: »

Let's be careful and not use it as punishment. These lads need masculinity outside of some thug who was badly raised himself. Give them structure, healthy food and a good male to learn from, and they could be okay.

Or, htey could still use the skills to have steady income for themselves and earn more money through crime than they would elsewhere.

Maybe you could find the series? I came across it via the World's Strictest Parents series. Which is in itself excellent

It was well handled and nothing of the thug????? about the Sergeant in charge. The discipline is what will help them find their own discipline and self respect. These men are professionals. training men to a high standard.

I have no idea if it is still going on?

Graces7

listermint wrote: »

Some of the answers so far on the thread are ......Prison time and sentences.... I mean
.

The only way to stop antisocial is to get kids at a young age to have pride in their area. Like the age of 5 through to 10.

Watched a program on channel 4 recently one of those home renovation ones and they guy doing the house was doing it all himself. He was a local guy and very much involved in the area.

One thing that struck me was he was showing the camera crew around the locality it was a heavily social housing area in the UK and he showed them a roundabout and it's roads leading off it . That he had built some 17 years previously. But there was blocks on it with the names of all the school kids on the roundabout. He had the kids help him in conjunction with the school.

The roundabout was immaculate and the roads off it. He also bumped into a your twenty something walking by pushing a pram and randomly said oh my name's on that roundabout . She was on the way to the shop and said she has great respect for the local guy.


You need to change mindsets. It's hearts and minds. Oppression never works.

It is better handled in the UK; social housing there started after the massive bombing in the war when there were whole fields of prefabs and the cities were in ruins,

It was a different kind of need. We were recovering from the war

I went to school with children from estates; there was no stigma etc. When they started building inner city tower blocks eg in Sheffield, it went wrong ; created ghettos

Not sure of the situation there now? More high rise these days .

KGLady

So many kids out there are falling through the cracks and while its ****ty or plain absence of parenting in many cases, its not always the parents fault (ie illness and other complex circumstances). Either way the lack of community and the support of a 'One Good Adult' to inspire and motivate the kids is a huge factor.

This might sound awful to some perspectives, but I always thing how different it might be if some of the at risk kids and their parents had a supported living setup while the children are dependent, instead of HAP cash out. Somewhere with a breakfast club and homework club equivalent with healthy food (tackle both obesity and hunger issues) and help with keeping the kids focused on the value of their education. A place where the kids and their future is the focus. In theory the single parents there who are struggling to finish education or work themselves have support for childcare and less stress juggling their tight budgets. HSE could centrally do regular visits for baby nurse, dental health and vaccines, mental health etc. also free contraception access >.>

On the other end of the scale, the daytime TV gang there could be tolerated as long as their kids are getting the opportunity to break that cycle of welfare living, given the support and option to choose something different. Not a forevah home, but something to make life better for the kids who need it for the duration of their childhood and lift them out of that ****ty cycle.

saabsaab

listermint wrote: »

Some of the answers so far on the thread are ......Prison time and sentences.... I mean
.

The only way to stop antisocial is to get kids at a young age to have pride in their area. Like the age of 5 through to 10.

Watched a program on channel 4 recently one of those home renovation ones and they guy doing the house was doing it all himself. He was a local guy and very much involved in the area.

One thing that struck me was he was showing the camera crew around the locality it was a heavily social housing area in the UK and he showed them a roundabout and it's roads leading off it . That he had built some 17 years previously. But there was blocks on it with the names of all the school kids on the roundabout. He had the kids help him in conjunction with the school.

The roundabout was immaculate and the roads off it. He also bumped into a your twenty something walking by pushing a pram and randomly said oh my name's on that roundabout . She was on the way to the shop and said she has great respect for the local guy.


You need to change mindsets. It's hearts and minds. Oppression never works.

Yep, you need more involvement and incentive in those areas in other words carrot and stick. My view is that a very small number can ruin it for everyone else they have to be dealt with.

Graces7

handlemaster wrote: »

Nothing to hide nothing to fear . This is about catching and stopping crime.

Personal privacy and respect matter. No one is accountable to anyone but the proper authorities.

Graces7

KGLady wrote: »

So many kids out there are falling through the cracks and while its ****ty or plain absence of parenting in many cases, its not always the parents fault (ie illness and other complex circumstances). Either way the lack of community and the support of a 'One Good Adult' to inspire and motivate the kids is a huge factor.

This might sound awful to some perspectives, but I always thing how different it might be if some of the at risk kids and their parents had a supported living setup while the children are dependent, instead of HAP cash out. Somewhere with a breakfast club and homework club equivalent with healthy food (tackle both obesity and hunger issues) and help with keeping the kids focused on the value of their education. A place where the kids and their future is the focus. In theory the single parents there who are struggling to finish education or work themselves have support for childcare and less stress juggling their tight budgets. HSE could centrally do regular visits for baby nurse, dental health and vaccines, mental health etc. also free contraception access >.>

On the other end of the scale, the daytime TV gang there could be tolerated as long as their kids are getting the opportunity to break that cycle of welfare living, given the support and option to choose something different. Not a forevah home, but something to make life better for the kids who need it for the duration of their childhood and lift them out of that ****ty cycle.

Many schools already have breakfast clubs and after school homework clubs.

Titclamp

Impossible. Its like knotweed.

Ray Palmer

Graces7 wrote: »

Many schools already have breakfast clubs and after school homework clubs.

Not really schools in deprived areas tend to have them not other schools. It was set up specifically to deal with kids not getting food. Some parents will not feed their kids even though that is precisely why child benefits exist.

There is a reason why pubs had specials on the day the payment came out. That is the sad reality.

Ray Palmer

Graces7 wrote: »

Personal privacy and respect matter. No one is accountable to anyone but the proper authorities.

I cannot get behind that. Everyone is accountable for their action and it is not all about policing.You are accountable to your family, friends and society in general.

Graces7

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I cannot get behind that. Everyone is accountable for their action and it is not all about policing.You are accountable to your family, friends and society in general.

I see your viewpoint but it is a narrow line between accountability and an inappropriate invasion of privacy And very few will see it as you do thankfully.

If someone on benefits acquires eg a car we can have no idea where the funding came from. Could be a gift? Similarly if by careful management of limited resources a person on benefits manages a holiday? Well done, and not our concern.

If you have real concerns there are the correct authorities to report the person to. That is what I mean by accountability.

Graces7

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Not really schools in deprived areas tend to have them not other schools. It was set up specifically to deal with kids not getting food. Some parents will not feed their kids even though that is precisely why child benefits exist.

There is a reason why pubs had specials on the day the payment came out. That is the sad reality.

Not going to argue but you are incorrect. I know schools in very good areas who have breakfast clubs etc.

And what matters is that the children are fed. Whoever does the feeding. Without judging.

saabsaab

L1011 wrote: »

Because tough military training never psychologically damaged anyone (who wasn't already potentially problematic at that), of course...

Proper military discipline has rarely damaged anyone and is a massive bonus for society. Much better than the lack of any care or attention that lead to modern mental issues.

Jim_Hodge

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Not really schools in deprived areas tend to have them not other schools. It was set up specifically to deal with kids not getting food. Some parents will not feed their kids even though that is precisely why child benefits exist.

You're right. Some better off schools gave them but they are fully paid for by the parents.

Free or subsidised Breakfast Clubs must fulfil very strict criteria laid down by the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection -

Projects must be targeted at areas of disadvantage or at children with special needs. Priority for funding is currently given to schools which are part of the Department of Education and Skills’ initiative for disadvantaged schools, ‘Delivering Equality of Opportunity in Schools’ (DEIS).

It's another example of subsidies going to one section of the population that doesn't get measured as part of their income.

Samuel T. Cogley

Without massive interference from a state body, you'll only ever fix antisocial areas - over decades - with private ownership and that's just moving the problem on in many cases.

tastyt

All these plans to be inclusive and getting young people involved in the community are all good, well meaning and would definitely have a positive effect.

In fact there is plenty of it going on around the estates now between youth clubs, sports and after school clubs. Volunteers and parents giving up their time to give the kids in the areas some focus.

But thats not the problem, theres also the minority that run amok and frighten the life out of people in these places and nothing is being done about them. They should be punished and ****ed out of there because they have had all the same chances and opportunities as the rest but have chosen to go against their communities.

What really pisses me off is the powers that be treating these rats with leniency and thinking they are doing their bit for a disadvantaged area are doing the exact opposite. The good people of the areas want these scum dealt with ten times more than anyone else because they have to live with them. We are letting the good people down .

There are many many people who will do and are doing the things above that benefit kids in these communities but its a waste of time if our judicial and policing system haven't got the backbone to help them out by doing their Job, weeding out the scum, protect the community and give it a chance to help itself.

handlemaster

handlemaster wrote: »

There are lots of antisocial estates in Ireland. How can this be fixed realistically. Jobs are of no interest to some people. But what can be done when crime is being committed ? Perhaps a simple idea like every house have a Ring door bell installed and the subsequent footage pulled by the gardai when an instant happens. Perhaps support from the local council with cost could be raised.

We have CCTV systems. Until crime stops paying and the social stops topping up crime, it won't be stopped.

You know that there was a payment in this country for 'prisoners wives'? That was a thing. What does that tell you?

You know that you can still claim welfare if your jail sentence is less than 2 weeks? Or that the social isn't automatically tied to the courts and prisons? So in reality, unless your sentence is in years, you can get away with still claiming for a while.

But how to stop it:

A, build more prisons. People say more prisons doesn't reduce crime. Well it stops the ****er from attacking innocent people while he's in there.

B, take fines from source. Why this hasn't been done yet despite the law for it being passed is beyond me. And no stupid low maximum amount. You keep committing crime and getting fines? We will continue to take more out each week.

C, make compensation in property crime mandatory. Why does a pickpocket care about being caught after the act? The court will fine them less than they stole and they won't pay the fine anyway.

D, adopt a strike system. Not 3, that's too low but maybe 10 is reasonable. 10th conviction? Mandatory sentence with a minimum. So for example if it's theft for example. Convictions:
1. Probation act
2 - 9 fine / prison at judges discretion
10 - 19 minimum jail time. Say, starting at 10% and rising so that's 1 year for every additional conviction.
20+ sorry but at this stage its time to throw away the key for the sake of society.

E, remove concurrent sentences. The system now, once the Criminal knows jail is on the horizon they essentially have a free pass because the next dozen crimes even if caught won't add any time to the sentence unless they are more serious.

F, remove dole for life. Sorry but no. You want free money? You can still get up and do something. Clean the local park, volunteer in the community, use a skill if you have one for the community. There's plenty that can be done.

G, remove houses for life. Keep acting up? You will be moved and downscaled.

So, I have removed a lot so let's say that hours worked in the community can be used against the fines? That's an incentive. The decent people out there already do good in the community and earn their keep. There's plenty of good people volunteering their skills and time. In fact they should be rewarded more. Old age pension should be based on tax paid. The minimum being that, the minimum needed to live. Not to have paid TV, smokes, beer and a holiday. You want those things in retirement? Work and don't steal!

I would also make volunteering mandatory. You know how countries had mandatory service in the army? Well why can't people be required to volunteer for a year? Not saying the military but it could be in a hospital, civil defence, mountain resvue, rnli, youth services and so on. It would teach a bit of humility and possible empathy

Eric Cartman

^^ +1 , We need thousands more prison spaces and to reduce standards in prisons.

L1011

saabsaab wrote: »

Proper military discipline has rarely damaged anyone and is a massive bonus for society. Much better than the lack of any care or attention that lead to modern mental issues.

Go talk to the charities working with former soldiers.

saabsaab

saabsaab wrote: »

Proper military discipline has rarely damaged anyone and is a massive bonus for society. Much better than the lack of any care or attention that lead to modern mental issues.

Yep, it's great when you have an entire crime element fully trained in military weapons and tactics on top of the drilled in killer instinct.

Just ask the countries that had conscripted citizens.

Couldn't ask that effort be put into charities and volunteer groups like civil defence?

Titclamp

Cut dole and put the money into education and push the incentives to not live such a hellish way will see the ghettos leave the country and the ones who take up the education route get qualified and contribute more positively in Irish society.

Samuel T. Cogley

Eric Cartman wrote: »

^^ +1 , We need thousands more prison spaces and to reduce standards in prisons.

No we don't. We need the prison spaces but we need to vastly increase the standards in prison to give people an education and rehabilitate. We need massive investment in youth offenders institutions and more custodial sentences to give the poor bastards a chance - leaving them with their waster parents isn't helping.

Mad_maxx

tastyt wrote: »

More Guards everywhere, more prison places, judges that give serious sentences, parents that give a **** where their little rats are.

Basically they have to have something to fear and respect like all the above.

Pie in the sky in this country though

All of the above plus social welfare penalties if kids - teenagers get into trouble

Mad_maxx

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

The option that has worked so far has been to mix social housing with private. And not put huge amounts of them in isolated estates.

There is no proof that works.

It's just something liberals happen to like

Cyrus

bubblypop wrote: »

Anti social behavior doesn't just happen in social housing estates.
It happens everywhere
& it is entirely personal, some people think young people sitting in a group together listening to music & messing is anti social behavior, some people think that kids kicking footballs off their side walls which are on a green area is anti social.
Some people think that drug dealing in open areas is anti social.
Others think that their neighbors having drinks & music in their garden is anti social.
It can happen everywhere because everyone has different definitions for anti social behavior based on what they accept as acceptable!

You are confusing criminal acts with socialising , people’s definitions are entirely irrelevant in that context