Gardaí: Provo Army Council oversees PIRA & SF

timhenn

bubblypop wrote: »

Apart from the fact that I actually worked at commemmerations for 1916, I wouldn't have gone. Neither did thousands of people across the country!
I'm not sure who you are calling a hypocrite but I am definitely not one.
No IRA, be it pira, cira, nira, old ira, I don't care. Nothing excuses murdering innocent civilians.
Also, nothing excuses murdering the policemen of the state.

That's lies. People turned out in huge numbers to commemorate 1916 and they'll turn out in huge numbers to celebrate upcoming commemorations and they'll voice their concern over any attempt to commemorate the black and tans. They do this because they know that although they killed many people, the armed rebellions of the past were just and right and they don't have any issues with celebrating those who killed policemen of the state.

timhenn

threeball wrote: »

It would be highly unlikely, improbable even that a person that holds the opinions you do would not support Sinn Fein.

Why? The facts are there, the PIRA were the good guys in a horrible war. Sinn Féin are irrelevant to that.

Hurrache

timhenn wrote: »

There's no whataboutery, I'm just pointing out your hypocrisy.

You haven't pointed out a bit of hypocrisy, not quite sure you understand the meaning, as I haven't argued for another side. How old are you?

1641

timhenn wrote: »

There's no whataboutery, I'm just pointing out your hypocrisy. Individual events don't take away from the overall virtue of a campaign. Armed rebellions in the past committed horrible acts, same as the PIRA, these horrible acts are a shameful part of it all but again, it doesn't take away from the fact that all these armed campaigs were fighting against a murderous oppressor and they were the good guys in the fight.

The "good guys in the fight"? What is this - the Troubles as a 1950s matinee movie?

There were no "good guys in the fight" - it was insane violence from both sides that tore communities apart and left a legacy way beyond the deaths - and way beyond the injured and maimed as well. And after 1973 (at latest) the Provos were not fighting to protect the nationalist community, they were fighting for a united 32 county socialist republic, as per their Constitution. In fairness they did not deny this at the time, it is only since the Peace Process that they have changed the narrative to one about it having been about "rights", "parity if esteem", etc. The re-writing of history.

And who were they killing, maiming and terrorising for? It was only after the Belfast Agreement and the abandonment of the armed campaign that Sinn Fein began to grow towards majority nationalist support in NI. In the 70s, at the height of their campaign, their support was relatively tiny but this didn't matter to them because they didn't need a mandate from the people - their mandate was the 1916 Proclamation, they said.

It was Thatcher's ham-fisted response to the hunger strikes that began to bring them any semblance of mass support and it was still from a minority of nationalists. It was then that the "armalite in one hand and ballot paper in the other" strategy was developed. Before that they did not give a hoot for democracy - after that it became a just matter of strategic convenience. Particularly when they became riddled with informers and the military campaign had reached stalemate.

timhenn

timhenn wrote: »

That's lies. People turned out in huge numbers to commemorate 1916 and they'll turn out in huge numbers to celebrate upcoming commemorations and they'll voice their concern over any attempt to commemorate the black and tans. They do this because they know that although they killed many people, the armed rebellions of the past were just and right and they don't have any issues with celebrating those who killed policemen of the state.

Wrong. Plenty of decent people do not condemn murder. & u don't believe anyone celebrates anyone who killed Gardai.
Do you celebrate the killers of Jerry mccabe?

threeball

timhenn wrote: »

Why? The facts are there, the PIRA were the good guys in a horrible war. Sinn Féin are irrelevant to that.

Jesus, talk about living in fantasy land. The IRA were good guys regardless of deliberately targeting children and innocent civilians, killing the police force of the state they proposed to want to join and using the "cause" to mask their criminal activities. And their political wing are irrelevant to them. It's amazing you could pack that much bullsh1t into a two line post.

Hurrache

threeball wrote: »

Collateral damage but he's not a Sinn Fein supporter as he's at pains to point out.

Ah sure they weren't targetted. They were obviously garrison towns but the military were moved out and replaced, at gun point, by civilians so the Britishers could sacrifice them for propaganda purposes.

Mortelaro

timhenn wrote: »

Another one runs away when the facts are pointed out to them.

A very important fact bypassed on this thread is that throughout the troubles,there was no equivocation made between the 1916 Rebels and the Provisional IRA of the troubles in the minds of the Irish people
Sinn Féin support only grew slowly when their campaign stopped
Their support hasnt grown either because people suddenly thought that the troubles were a good idea after all
It was organic for different reasons mainly as a result of community work done on the ground

Support was a pittance during the campaign because only a tiny percentage agreed with it maybe 5 or 6% at most

When it grew,and even up to the council elections last year it was prone to competition from other left wing parties

dxhound2005

Brady Attractive Superscript wrote: »

So the men women and children of Omagh and Warrington were guilty of what ???
Not to mention Enniskillen.

Sinn Fein hold an annual commemoration for five men who blew themselves up on the way to do a Rememberance Day massacre in 1957. A failed mission which gives them the title of martyrs. Oddly enough they do not celebrate the Enniskillen bombers in public. Even though they achieved their mission of mass murder, and should be heroes of the movement.

I see our new SF TD for Louth in this picture.

http://www.louthsinnfein.ie/news/4388/edentubber-commemoration-told-case-for-united-ireland-has-never-been-more-obvious-and-more-necessary

timhenn

timhenn wrote: »

Why? The facts are there, the PIRA were the good guys in a horrible war. Sinn Féin are irrelevant to that.

Pretty sure the good guys were those who committed to peaceful protest and civil rights.

The bad guys were the ones killing kids.

timhenn

Hurrache wrote: »

You haven't pointed out a bit of hypocrisy, not quite sure you understand the meaning, as I haven't argued for another side. How old are you?

You avoided it and can't argue the points I raised. If you can't offer an argument then maybe you should consider not posting?

Hurrache

timhenn wrote: »

You avoided it and can't argue the points I raised. If you can't offer an argument then maybe you should consider not posting?

You haven't raised one single point, not one.

It's obvious you're either young and have no idea to the reality of the period other than propaganda you've read, or believing you're doing the good work in whitewashing history on behalf of SF.

Which is it? You've been asked your age previously? At least if you admit to it we'd be closer to understanding your detached reasoning.

FrancieBrady

Mortelaro wrote: »

A very important fact bypassed on this thread is that throughout the troubles,there was no equivocation made between the 1916 Rebels and the Provisional IRA of the troubles in the minds of the Irish people
Sinn Féin support only grew slowly when their campaign stopped
Their support hasnt grown either because people suddenly thought that the troubles were a good idea after all
It was organic for different reasons mainly as a result of community work done on the ground

Support was a pittance during the campaign because only a tiny percentage agreed with it maybe 5 or 6% at most

When it grew,and even up to the council elections last year it was prone to competition from other left wing parties

SF support was affected by intimidation, censorship and the killing of their representatives during the conflict/war.

It was dangerous, sometimes lethally dangerous, to be a member or supporter.

Be fair when consider these things.

Mortelaro

FrancieBrady wrote: »

SF support was affected by intimidation, censorship and the killing of their representatives during the conflict/war.

It was dangerous, sometimes lethally dangerous, to be a member or supporter.

Be fair when consider these things.

Ah come on now
The ballot box contained none of these things north or south

timhenn

1641 wrote: »

The "good guys in the fight"? What is this - the Troubles as a 1950s matinee movie?

There were no "good guys in the fight" - it was insane violence from both sides that tore communities apart and left a legacy way beyond the deaths - and way beyond the injured and maimed as well. And after 1973 (at latest) the Provos were not fighting to protect the nationalist community, they were fighting for a united 32 county socialist republic, as per their Constitution. In fairness they did not deny this at the time, it is only since the Peace Process that they have changed the narrative to one about it having been about "rights", "parity if esteem", etc. The re-writing of history.

And who were they killing, maiming and terrorising for? It was only after the Belfast Agreement and the abandonment of the armed campaign that Sinn Fein began to grow towards majority nationalist support in NI. In the 70s, at the height of their campaign, their support was relatively tiny but this didn't matter to them because they didn't need a mandate from the people - their mandate was the 1916 Proclamation, they said.

It was Thatcher's ham-fisted response to the hunger strikes that began to bring them any semblance of mass support and it was still from a minority of nationalists. It was then that the "armalite in one hand and ballot box in the other" strategy was developed. Before that they did not give a hoot for democracy - after that it became a just matter of strategic convenience. Particularly when they became riddled with informers and the military campaign had reached stalemate.

More nonsense. They would not have been able to operate as they did without the support of their communities. If you and your family members and friends were getting regular beatings and harassment from the armed forces of another country, along with the mass slaughter committed by these forces, you would change your tune. The IRA in the 6 counties was practically non-existent up to 1969, lads didn't create and join the PIRA for the craic. Their communities were under attack, without them, there would have been an ethnic cleansing of nationalists in the 6 counties.

FrancieBrady

Mortelaro wrote: »

Ah come on now
The ballot box contained none of these things north or south

I wonder how any party here would do in similar circumstances.

timhenn

bubblypop wrote: »

Wrong. Plenty of decent people do not condemn murder. & u don't believe anyone celebrates anyone who killed Gardai.
Do you celebrate the killers of Jerry mccabe?

THe black and tans were a section of the state police!

The Rape of Lucretia

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Sinn Fein hold an annual commemoration for five men who blew themselves up on the way to do a Rememberance Day massacre in 1957. A failed mission which gives them the title of martyrs.

No, no. That SF site is nothing to do with the IRA or (incompetent) murderous terrorists who got their comuppance. Its all about SF....Oh, sorry - SF and the IRA are the same thing ? Really ? Well roger me rigid with a raddish !

timhenn

threeball wrote: »

Jesus, talk about living in fantasy land. The IRA were good guys regardless of deliberately targeting children and innocent civilians, killing the police force of the state they proposed to want to join and using the "cause" to mask their criminal activities. And their political wing are irrelevant to them. It's amazing you could pack that much bullsh1t into a two line post.

Horrible acts committed does not negate the fact that their fight was just.

1641

FrancieBrady wrote: »

SF support was affected by intimidation, censorship and the killing of their representatives during the conflict/war.

It was dangerous, sometimes lethally dangerous, to be a member or supporter.

Be fair when consider these things.

What absolute balderdash. It was dangerous to be a member of the nationalist community and not show some level of token support towards Sinn Fein.


Shops and businesses in towns where a republican funeral was to take place were "visited" and "reminded" of what time they should close to show a mark of respect. Flags were "handed out" for parades.They were also told who they could, and could not, trade with. No one would dare question IRA carry on unless they were sure of their circumstances - ie, within a safe circle. People had to show comformity.

timhenn

Mortelaro wrote: »

A very important fact bypassed on this thread is that throughout the troubles,there was no equivocation made between the 1916 Rebels and the Provisional IRA of the troubles in the minds of the Irish people
Sinn Féin support only grew slowly when their campaign stopped
Their support hasnt grown either because people suddenly thought that the troubles were a good idea after all
It was organic for different reasons mainly as a result of community work done on the ground

Support was a pittance during the campaign because only a tiny percentage agreed with it maybe 5 or 6% at most

When it grew,and even up to the council elections last year it was prone to competition from other left wing parties

Sinn Féin is not the PIRA! I couldn't give a sh1t about what Sinn Féin do. I'm telling you, the commuties who suffered under british terror supported the PIRA and in huge numbers.

timhenn

Deleted User wrote: »

Pretty sure the good guys were those who committed to peaceful protest and civil rights.

The bad guys were the ones killing kids.

Surely the bad guys were the ones who just targetted civilians? The british side killed over 1,000 innocents.

dxhound2005

timhenn wrote: »

Their communities were under attack, without them, there would have been an ethnic cleansing of nationalists in the 6 counties.

And those who took it upon themselves to defend the community weren't above doing a little bit of ethnic cleansing themselves.

Douglas Deering was the last Protestant shopkeeper in Rosslea, in south-east Fermanagh. He was not and never had been a member of the security forces. Married with three children he attended a Gospel hall in Clones. He was shot dead in his shop on May 12, 1978. His shop had been bombed four times by the time of his murder.

timhenn

Hurrache wrote: »

You haven't raised one single point, not one.

It's obvious you're either young and have no idea to the reality of the period other than propaganda you've read, or believing you're doing the good work in whitewashing history on behalf of SF.

Which is it? You've been asked your age previously? At least if you admit to it we'd be closer to understanding your detached reasoning.

Why can't you argue the points? Like I said, if you can't it's ok to just exit the thread gracefully. Nobody will think bad of you.

timhenn

timhenn wrote: »

THe black and tans were a section of the state police!

An what about AGS?

timhenn

dxhound2005 wrote: »

And those who took it upon themselves to defend the community weren't above doing a little bit of ethnic cleansing themselves.

Douglas Deering was the last Protestant shopkeeper in Rosslea, in south-east Fermanagh. He was not and never had been a member of the security forces. Married with three children he attended a Gospel hall in Clones. He was shot dead in his shop on May 12, 1978. His shop had been bombed four times by the time of his murder.

Your point? I haven't denied that horrible acts were committed, yet again, this doesn't take away from the fact that their fight was just!

FrancieBrady

dxhound2005 wrote: »

And those who took it upon themselves to defend the community weren't above doing a little bit of ethnic cleansing themselves.

Douglas Deering was the last Protestant shopkeeper in Rosslea, in south-east Fermanagh. He was not and never had been a member of the security forces. Married with three children he attended a Gospel hall in Clones. He was shot dead in his shop on May 12, 1978. His shop had been bombed four times by the time of his murder.

I'm a few miles away from Roslea. He was warned about supplying the army and RUC several times.

There are many protestants living happily in and around Roslea, they go to church with my partner and my children.

timhenn

bubblypop wrote: »

An what about AGS?

What about them?

JamesM

timhenn wrote: »

Your point? I haven't denied that horrible acts were committed, yet again, this doesn't take away from the fact that their fight was just!

They were gangsters, bank robbers and murderers

1641

timhenn wrote: »

More nonsense. They would not have been able to operate as they did without the support of their communities. If you and your family members and friends were getting regular beatings and harassment from the armed forces of another country, along with the mass slaughter committed by these forces, you would change your tune. The IRA in the 6 counties was practically non-existent up to 1969, lads didn't create and join the PIRA for the craic. Their communities were under attack, without them, there would have been an ethnic cleansing of nationalists in the 6 counties.

No they didn't create it for the craic. 1969 was a desperate time. But in no time at all they had morphed into an offensive military operation. Don't forget the Civil Rights movement didn't want them. They destroyed the peaceful movement and anyway they did not share its objectives. It was never about civil rights for the Provos. Kingsmill was not about "protecting nationalist communities". Their bombing campaign was not about protecting nationalist communities. They were clear what they were about - Brits Out and a 32 republic - by force.