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Gardaí: Provo Army Council oversees PIRA & SF

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    #1022
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,185 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Huntergonzo wrote: »
    Point is I'm not a fan of political party rallies, again I think there's a real sheep mentality to them, I've made that point here already.

    But the Sinn Fein ones should be particularly interesting given their cloak and dagger style politics.

    Now I'm afraid I can't stay and play all afternoon, there's rugby to be watched, oops does that make me a Fine Gaeler as well? :-)

    Good afternoon folks, stay beautiful.

    Meeting your electorate face to face, informing them and allowing them to form your policy...is 'cloak and dagger politics' now??


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    #1023
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,185 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    alastair wrote: »
    Can you point me to the clause in the GFA that makes the political influence of the Army Council unlawful?

    You can’t, because there isn’t one. The GFA covers demilitarisation obligations, but that’s it.

    I didn't say there was a clause. I said it was contrary to the GFA.

    If Leo believes that another party leader should be 'disbanding the IRA', when they have said themselves they have disbanded and the IMC say they have, then we are in quite a serious place, that for once requires clarity.

    But we won't get that, because Leo needs the taunt for political purposes.


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    #1024
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I didn't say there was a clause. I said it was contrary to the GFA.

    If Leo believes that another party leader should be 'disbanding the IRA', when they have said themselves they have disbanded and the IMC say they have, then we are in quite a serious place, that for once requires clarity.

    But we won't get that, because Leo needs the taunt for political purposes.

    If it’s not referenced in the GFA it’s not contrary to it. How do you imagine it is?
    The IMC said that the military structure was disbanded. It also made clear the the political involvement was ongoing. That’s the political involvement of the PIRA, in their terms, not SF.


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    #1025
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,185 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    alastair wrote: »
    If it’s not referenced in the GFA it’s not contrary to it. How do you imagine it is?
    The IMC said that the military structure was disbanded. It also made clear the the political involvement was ongoing.

    So why the problem then? Was the purpose of the GFA not to bring people into the political process?


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    #1026
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 21,100 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    So why the problem then? Was the purpose of the GFA not to bring people into the political process?

    A possible security problem. If there are security force spies in the Army Council, a future SF Minister for Justice could have access to that information. They would then have to decide whether party loyalty comes before their obligation to the State. If they passed the information to the Army Council, there could be serious consequences for the spies.

    The Army Council could let the information slip to their former colleagues in some other version of the IRA. And Sinn Fein could deny responsibility if some of those dissidents killed the spies.

    A lot of coulds there I know, but this is no more fantastical than the conspiracy theories I see from SF supporters.


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    #1027
    Fann Linn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,800 ✭✭✭Fann Linn


    There is a lot of desperation being shown by MSM and the Establishment since SF got the popular vote. The main parties should either form a govt or go back for another election.

    Raking up the dirt or the past is pointless if they're not prepared to do anything about it. As it currently stands SF will still have the same amount of seats as FF regardless of tweets, up da ra, Drew Harris and MI5.


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    #1028
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 21,100 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Fann Linn wrote: »
    There is a lot of desperation being shown by MSM and the Establishment since SF got the popular vote. The main parties should either form a govt or go back for another election.

    Raking up the dirt or the past is pointless if they're not prepared to do anything about it. As it currently stands SF will still have the same amount of seats as FF regardless of tweets, up da ra, Drew Harris and MI5.

    Sinn Fein are part of the establishment, if they have no private army.


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    #1029
    Fann Linn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,800 ✭✭✭Fann Linn


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    Sinn Fein are part of the establishment, if they have no private army.

    We're agreed so.


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    #1030
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    So why the problem then? Was the purpose of the GFA not to bring people into the political process?

    Sure, and it’s also appropriate for the electorate to question if a group of unaccountable IRA figures asserting influence over a governing party is a good or a bad thing. If you’ve got issues with Dominic Cummings why wouldn’t you have as much concern about a number of faceless influencers?


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    #1031
    Fann Linn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,800 ✭✭✭Fann Linn


    alastair wrote: »
    Sure, and it’s also appropriate for the electorate to question if a group of unaccountable IRA figures asserting influence over a governing party is a good or a bad thing. If you’ve got issues with Dominic Cummings why wouldn’t you have as much concern about a number of faceless influencers?

    Like Dinny for instance.


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    #1032
    1641
    Registered Users Posts: 1,270 ✭✭✭1641


    Any more word on the MIGA rallies?
    Some quick acting entrepreneur is going to make a fortune on the baseball hats. Probably an in-house franchise.
    It would make a good front for laundering some dirty diesel money.


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    #1033
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,185 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    alastair wrote: »
    Sure, and it’s also appropriate for the electorate to question if a group of unaccountable IRA figures asserting influence over a governing party is a good or a bad thing. If you’ve got issues with Dominic Cummings why wouldn’t you have as much concern about a number of faceless influencers?

    Are they politically involved representatives or not? You seem, like Leo, to want to have it every way.


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    #1034
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Are they politically involved representatives or not? You seem, like Leo, to want to have it every way.

    They’re not representing anyone through a democratic mechanism. Who elects the Army Council? Who elected Cummings?


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    #1035
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 21,100 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Are they politically involved representatives or not? You seem, like Leo, to want to have it every way.

    This thread only exists because the security forces say they are politically involved.


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    #1036
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,971 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Again alastair:

    The IRA operating at an organisational level is totally contrary to the GFA.

    Leo calling on MLMD to 'disband the IRA' means he believes the IRA are still operating.


    Except it isn’t. The IRA operating at a criminal and operational level is against the GFA. Planning and directing the political activity of Sinn Fein is not against the GFA.


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    #1037
    Fann Linn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,800 ✭✭✭Fann Linn


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    This thread only exists because the security forces say they are politically involved.

    Is that the report which Dr Karen Davies, impartial professor, stated yesterday, was based on 'hearsay'.


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    #1038
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,185 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    alastair wrote: »
    They’re not representing anyone through a democratic mechanism. Who elects the Army Council? Who elected Cummings?

    So only elected reps have input into other political parties?

    Do you realise how absurd you are sounding?


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    #1039
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 21,100 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Fann Linn wrote: »
    Is that the report which Dr Karen Davies, impartial professor, stated yesterday, was based on 'hearsay'.

    Who is she? Would she have the same access to security information that the Garda Commissioner has?


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    #1040
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    This thread only exists because the security forces say they are politically involved.

    Listen, no sane individual ever believed the IRA had gone away and that SF was self governing.

    Anything contrary is the subject of fairies and banshees.


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    #1041
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,185 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Planning and directing the political activity of Sinn Fein is not against the GFA.

    Why are the Gardai interested in that if it isn't illegal?


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    #1042
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Except it isn’t. The IRA operating at a criminal and operational level is against the GFA. Planning and directing the political activity of Sinn Fein is not against the GFA.

    There’s no crime in the Army Council’s involvement in SF policy. There’s nothing unlawful about the non-military activities of the same group. the GFA proscribes military activity. Nothing more.

    The IMC were clear that PIRA political activity was ongoing. That was a welcomed outcome in decommissioning terms. The question is if that activity is now to be whitewashed in democratic terms.


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    #1043
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    So only elected reps have input into other political parties?

    Do you realise how absurd you are sounding?

    What’s absurd is putting words in my mouth that are at a complete 180 to the point you’re actually quoting.


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    #1044
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,185 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    alastair wrote: »
    There’s no crime in the Army Council’s involvement in SF policy. There’s nothing unlawful about the non-military activities of the same group. the GFA proscribes military activity. Nothing more.

    The IMC were clear that PIRA political activity was ongoing. That was a welcomed outcome in decommissioning terms. The question is if that activity is now to be whitewashed in democratic terms.

    So if there is NO crime, why is the Gardai involved?


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    #1045
    Fann Linn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,800 ✭✭✭Fann Linn


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    Who is she? Would she have the same access to security information that the Garda Commissioner has?

    No. But she read the report. Which Drew Harris, as Deputy Chief of the PSNi wrote up in 2015. Listen to yesterday's broadcast on RTE for the full transcript. Btw Cowen or Harris didn't disagree with her either.


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    #1046
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 21,100 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Why are the Gardai interested in that if it isn't illegal?

    It was reporters that asked whether the assessment had changed since 2015. It is clear to me that they asked because there could be a Sinn Fein government soon. It is not some big conspiracy against Sinn Fein.


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    #1047
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,185 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Fann Linn wrote: »
    No. But she read the report. Which Drew Harris, as Deputy Chief of the PSNi wrote up in 2015. Listen to yesterday's broadcast on RTE for the full transcript. Btw Cowen or Harris didn't disagree with her either.

    Harris did his level best to shut her up.


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    #1048
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Why are the Gardai interested in that if it isn't illegal?

    You’re surprised that the cops keep an eye on former paramilitary activities?


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    #1049
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,971 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    McMurphy wrote: »
    How large a rally can you get into a hotel, or the likes of liberty hall?


    This is not a rerun of one of the Irish Water marches in Dublin, some people are losing the run of themselves.


    You are correct, it is much more sinister than that, and something we have seen before, around 90 years ago.


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    #1050
    1641
    Registered Users Posts: 1,270 ✭✭✭1641


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    So only elected reps have input into other political parties?

    Do you realise how absurd you are sounding?


    No other political party, that I know of, has people controlling it who belong to an "Army Council" that claims , via the IRA constitution, to be the legitimate government of the Irish Republic (32 county). This Irish Republic was, according to them, established in 1916 and subsequently betrayed by politicians.


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    #1051
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 21,100 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Fann Linn wrote: »
    No. But she read the report. Which Drew Harris, as Deputy Chief of the PSNi wrote up in 2015. Listen to yesterday's broadcast on RTE for the full transcript. Btw Cowen or Harris didn't disagree with her either.

    I never heard of her before yesterday. Maybe you have been following her opinions on the subject for a while. Or maybe you only heard of her yesterday. How would I know if she is impartial?


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