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Gardaí: Provo Army Council oversees PIRA & SF

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    #1892
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    As a british person I was horrified that SF were able to dupe people into voting for them by making promises which they would probably be unable to fulfill-it shows the lengths mary Lou mcDonald will go to in her self serving drive for power-she will step on anyone in her own climb to the top and whatever SF say,they will always be linked to the PIRA.

    You must be gutted you grew up under the British Army and Tories.


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    #1893
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    jm08 wrote: »
    If you knew and understood the history of the foundation of the Irish State (War of Independence, Signing of the Treaty, Partition, Civil War) you might understand that people need to move on from the past eventually.

    That's true but you can't cherry pick what you want to move on from whilst constantly bringing up past events when it suits.


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    #1894
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    Bowie wrote: »
    You must be gutted you grew up under the British Army and Tories.

    I despise the tories ,as I despise the IRA.


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    #1895
    Mortelaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    McMurphy wrote: »
    So, Harris was asked for his opinion, on his former employers opinion, and he agreed with that opinion, of which he was part and parcel of forging the opinion?

    Man agrees with his own opinion - shock horror.

    No
    He said the Garda assessment is the same


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    #1896
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    No
    He said the Garda assessment is the same

    Who's head of this crack breathalyzer squad?


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    #1897
    Mortelaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    Bowie wrote: »
    Who's head of this crack breathalyzer squad?

    Could we keep to the topic of the thread please or is there a point in the above?


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    #1898
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    The security assessment has plenty of details of the UVF, UDA etc. The problem with the IRA is their close political involvement in SF. The assessment does not make that link between the Loyalist paramilitaries and the DUP. I think it is no coincidence that SF are by far the richest party in the North. The paramilitaries are all gangsters who should have no say in any normal party. Let them stick to their racketeering and drug dealing and leave politics to the politicians.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/469548/Paramilitary_Groups_in_Northern_Ireland_-_20_Oct_2015.pdf

    The annex at the end of the document might be of interest to those who want the security services to release their evidence.

    Thanks for the link to the actual document.

    I don't follow your point that political involvement for former paramilitaries is to be frowned on. What do you propose should be done with them - ignore them and hope they don't start up again because they don't like the direction of travel to a United Ireland? The assessment credits the leadership of the PIRA of ensuring that they remain on a peaceful/political route while the UVF etc. are still recruiting and their leadership have no control over their members. I know which route I think is best.

    An example of how not to do it.

    Sinn Fein have plenty of legitimate ways of raising money (i.e., fundraisers in New York that Trump attended for example). They also take money from their public representatives, not to mention being willed large amounts of money from disaffected British citizens. I don't think even any of the dissident republicans are involved in drug dealing (more likely to kneecap drug dealers) that seems to be the money earner for the loyalist paramiltaries.


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    #1899
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    I despise the tories ,as I despise the IRA.


    Which IRA do you despise?


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    #1900
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    Could we keep to the topic of the thread please or is there a point in the above?

    The head of the Garda said the Garda assessment of the report he helped generate is the same as his assessment. That's my point.


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    #1901
    Mortelaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    Bowie wrote: »
    The head of the Garda said the Garda assessment of the report he helped generate is the same as his assessment. That's my point.

    How do you know the assessment was done in his tenure or who leads the assessment teams in AGS ?
    It's not a point if it hasnt that information


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    #1902
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    How do you know the assessment was done in his tenure or who leads the assessment teams in AGS ?
    It's not a point if it hasnt that information

    He stated the organisation he oversees agrees with him on his assessment of a report he helped to compile. That's all I'm saying. If you see that as two unbiased unrelated entities that's fine. I wouldn't. You know why he was brought in right? I suppose he might have completely overhauled the AGS in such a manner that it's as you suggest.


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    #1903
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    jm08 wrote: »
    Which IRA do you despise?

    The one that kills people,kneecaps people and skulks in the shadows-that one


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    #1904
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    The one that kills people,kneecaps people and skulks in the shadows-that one

    They'd be very foolish not to skulk in the shadows. The IRA were an illegal organisation.
    I didn't grow up in conflict so I can't speak to the north from experience. I would suggest you keep an open mind.
    As for the south most of us recognise the troubles up north were not comparable to the scene down south, so the two cannot be compared as like with like.


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    #1905
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    No
    He said the Garda assessment is the same

    Is there an official assesment from the Gardai in 2020, or as I asked already, was drew just giving his own opinion on his earlier opinion?


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    #1906
    Mortelaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    McMurphy wrote: »
    Is there an official assesment from the Gardai in 2020, or as I asked already, was drew just giving his own opinion on his earlier opinion?

    He was saying the Garda assessment is the same
    Garda intelligence would be wide ranging and ongoing


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    #1907
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,184 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    He was saying the Garda assessment is the same
    Garda intelligence would be wide ranging and ongoing

    The previous Commissioner based her opinion in 2015 on an IMC report of 2009.

    She was of the belief BTW that all military depts and other PIRA structures had been disbanded.


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    #1908
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    He was saying the Garda assessment is the same
    Garda intelligence would be wide ranging and ongoing

    When will the public see this assessment from the Gardai, or are we to take the word of the former deputy chief constable of the psni, agreeing with a five year old report from the psni of which he was assistant chief constable at the time?

    I'm not sure if the commissioner can answer on the spot questions, and they're to be taken as the official assessment of the whole of AGS tbh, is that within his remit can anyone clarify?


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    #1909
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,668 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    He was saying the Garda assessment is the same
    Garda intelligence would be wide ranging and ongoing

    yes - evidence that says the PIRA - if you believe they still exist - have turned political. big deal - wheres your issue?

    He said he agreed with the PSNIs assessment of the army council controlling SF. That was put together by the PSNI when he was second in command, so its doubtful he wasnt involved in it.

    I wouldn't trust the PSNI personally. Too politically motivated.

    I dont think Garda intelligence have anything but the PSNIs word about this shadowy people controlling SF lark.

    But I bet they do have info that shows ex provos are now working for political ends.


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    #1910
    Sinbad_NI
    Registered Users Posts: 1,059 ✭✭✭Sinbad_NI


    maccored wrote: »
    yes - evidence that says the PIRA - if you believe they still exist - have turned political. big deal - wheres your issue?

    He said he agreed with the PSNIs assessment of the army council controlling SF. That was put together by the PSNI when he was second in command, so its doubtful he wasnt involved in it.

    I wouldn't trust the PSNI personally. Too politically motivated.

    I dont think Garda intelligence have anything but the PSNIs word about this shadowy people controlling SF lark.

    But I bet they do have info that shows ex provos are now working for political ends.

    But you do trust SF. Are they less politically motivated?


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    #1911
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Sinbad_NI wrote: »
    But you do trust SF. Are they less politically motivated?

    One is a police force the other a political party.
    One is supposed to have political views and act on those views, the other isn't.


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    #1912
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,971 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Bowie wrote: »
    One is a police force the other a political party.
    One is supposed to have political views and act on those views, the other isn't.

    Correct, so we have to give much greater weight to the independent one than to the political party.


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    #1913
    Mortelaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    maccored wrote: »
    yes - evidence that says the PIRA - if you believe they still exist - have turned political. big deal - wheres your issue?
    Lots of people have an issue with it
    Its probably what's driving their policy on the SCC for instance
    He said he agreed with the PSNIs assessment of the army council controlling SF. That was put together by the PSNI when he was second in command, so its doubtful he wasnt involved in it.

    No
    He said
    "I am also aware of the PSNI and the British security services assessment and we do not differ from that view."

    We,not I
    We as in AGS
    I wouldn't trust the PSNI personally. Too politically motivated.
    That's still understandable but will change
    I dont think Garda intelligence have anything but the PSNIs word about this shadowy people controlling SF lark.

    But I bet they do have info that shows ex provos are now working for political ends.
    Shadowy is a matter of interpretation
    But you can bet your bottom dollar,they are as aware as the PSNI of what goes on


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    #1914
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    Sinbad_NI wrote: »
    But you do trust SF. Are they less politically motivated?

    A political party being politically motivated, whatever next?

    (Btw AGS are supposed to be apolitical)

    Coming up after the break, water may be wet.


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    #1915
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Correct, so we have to give much greater weight to the independent one than to the political party.

    Only if you're terribly naive. You should read up the Garda McCabe whistle blower scandal, penalty points, Frances Fitzgerald, Callinan etc. Eye opening.
    I said 'supposed'. Never claimed it was the case.


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    #1916
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,184 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I trust the 'independent' bodies in this. The last report from the Independent Reporting Commission didn't even mention the RA, so insignificant is it.

    Simon Coveney welcomed the report along with Charlie Flanagan and despite their leader Leo's belief that the IRA is overseeing SF, they urged SF and others to get involved in government.

    Curious thing to do.
    Simon Coveney wrote:
    The IRC’s report is one more reason why the political parties must urgently reach an agreement to operate the devolved power-sharing institutions again, in the interests of all of the people of Northern Ireland.


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    #1917
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    As curious as Leo labeling party political rallies as being bullying and intimidating while...
    Taoiseach & Fine Gael to canvass and rally for Directly Elected Mayors’ Yes vote
    https://www.finegael.ie/taoiseach-fine-gael-to-canvass-and-rally-for-directly-elected-mayors-yes-vote/


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    #1918
    Mortelaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    FrancieBrady wrote: »

    Simon Coveney welcomed the report along with Charlie Flanagan and despite their leader Leo's belief that the IRA is overseeing SF, they urged SF and others to get involved in government.

    Curious thing to do.

    No
    As has been pointed out before to the script writers,NI isn't a sovereign government ,it has little revenue or taxing, economy wrecking or justice powers
    The Dublin government has all of them and more
    If you are opposed to the IRA's influence on any of those,Simon's view on a different approach in the Republic part of Ireland is spot on


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    #1919
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    No
    As has been pointed out before to the script writers,NI isn't a sovereign government ,it has little revenue or taxing, economy wrecking or justice powers
    The Dublin government has all of them and more
    If you are opposed to the IRA's influence on any of those,Simon's view on a different approach in the Republic part of Ireland is spot on

    Do you think the IRA folk shot once for yes or twice for no, or as is more likely engaged in the political process? Do you think and IRA inclined individuals who fought for and accepted the GFA just ceased to care or would you expect some of them to follow on in politics? And if they did, what's the problem?
    The issue is the suggestion that lads are hanging around polishing their firearms while telling politicians how to think. Nobody has any proof that is the case and I would not see the point. It's scaremongering plain and simple.
    The hypocrisy lies in Coveney and the gang pushing for parties to work together up north while citing some faux moral bullcrap as to why they won't even consider it down south.


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    #1920
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,184 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    No
    As has been pointed out before to the script writers,NI isn't a sovereign government ,it has little revenue or taxing, economy wrecking or justice powers
    The Dublin government has all of them and more
    If you are opposed to the IRA's influence on any of those,Simon's view on a different approach in the Republic part of Ireland is spot on

    So it's ok to endorse the influence of the IRA in one jurisdiction you have responsibilities in and not in another?

    Got ya!


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    #1921
    Mortelaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    Bowie wrote: »
    Do you think the IRA folk shot once for yes or twice for no, or as is more likely engaged in the political process? Do you think and IRA inclined individuals who fought for and accepted the GFA just ceased to care or would you expect some of them to follow on in politics? And if they did, what's the problem?
    The issue is the suggestion that lads are hanging around polishing their firearms while telling politicians how to think. Nobody has any proof that is the case and I would not see the point. It's scaremongering plain and simple.

    You dont seem to get (again) that accepting the GFA and the special position of NI and not wanting the IRA deciding government policies can be mutually held positions by voters in the Republic part of the island

    This too will change probably as the living memories of the troubles die away
    The far left ideology of the IRA's socialist Republic isnt going to get popular though at any time
    Too many people are ambitious for their pockets


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