Gardaí: Provo Army Council oversees PIRA & SF

JohnnyFlash

KWAG2019 wrote: »

Please read article very carefully.

Evidence of the belief of a Garda chief superintendent that an accused is a member of the IRA is routinely used in membership trials. Privilege can be claimed on the material underlying the belief, usually on the grounds of the protection of life and property, the protection of ongoing and future investigations and the security of the State.

Although judges in past trials ruled that the Special Criminal Court itself should view any underlying files relevant to belief evidence, this is the first case in which the court ruled that such material should be viewed by the prosecution.

Pal, putting stuff in bold and asking people to read things very slowly smacks of ego to be honest. You’re a Shinner. You have a different moral compass to the rest of us. You think they’re fine, lots of people think SF are a shower of shady scumbags. No amount of debate here is going to change a single opinion.

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

The thread is obviously moving too fast for you as I have answered this already.

SF in parliament - YES
SF in government in Northern Ireland because of special provisions to protect others from them - YES
SF in power in a local authority where the damage they can do is minimal - YES
SF in government anywhere else in a normal democracy - NO

Nuanced approach demanding different answers to different situations. I admit it is a bit more complicated than "up the 'ra" but there you go.

My understanding is that once people vote for a certain individual/party, they have a democratic mandate. This is the principle that Mary Robinson (a Lawyer) took when she met and shook the hand of Gerry Adams because he was an elected representative of the people of West Belfast. The IRA were not even on ceasefire at the time.


I'm not sure you actually understand what democracy is. Being elected representatives legitimises Sinn Fein (and even its former gun men in a peaceful, political way, not as paramilitaries though). Everyone knows Sinn Fein's history, but yet they continue to vote for them.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.lawyer.ie/defamation/defamation-act-2009/

"As previously, defamatory statements (note the very broad definition of same) are automatically deemed to be false."

So the statement by the Garda Commissioner is automatically deemed to be false, and if Sinn Fein or Mary-Lou sue, he has to prove on the basis of probabilities that his statement is true.

The Garda Commissioner did not 'defame' SF. Some members of PIRA have. That is how careful the orchestration is here and the language being used, in effect, SF would have to sue members of PIRA.

That you and others have 'filled in the blanks' or 'read between the lines' was what was meant to happen here and you have acquitted yourselves well. The 'already convinced, re-convinced' so to speak.

It seems as a strategy it is working on ever decreasing numbers.

FrancieBrady

jm08 wrote: »

My understanding is that once people vote for a certain individual/party, they have a democratic mandate. This is the principle that Mary Robinson (a Lawyer) took when she met and shook the hand of Gerry Adams because he was an elected representative of the people of West Belfast. The IRA were not even on ceasefire at the time.


I'm not sure you actually understand what democracy is. Being elected representatives legitimises Sinn Fein (and even its former gun men in a peaceful, political way, not as paramilitaries though). Everyone knows Sinn Fein's history, but yet they continue to vote for them.

Blanch is fond of 'ceilings' to protect the status quo.

KWAG2019

KWAG2019 wrote: »

If CAGS believes army council is still operative he can bring those involved before Special Criminal Court and have them jailed on the word of a Chief Super. Why hadn’t this happened?

do you understand how laws work?
the army council is in Northern ireland.
An Garda Siochana is the police force in the republic of Ireland.
maybe you can work out the rest........

McMurphy

McMurphy wrote: »

You presumably voted no to the GFA (assuming you're old enough to have had a vote) or if not, are you just cherry picking what parts you agreed to?

it didn't state anywhere that I had to agree to a political party being in Government here, in the Republic of Ireland, being ran by the army council of the IRA

McMurphy

bubblypop wrote: »

it didn't state anywhere that I had to agree to a political party being in Government here, in the Republic of Ireland, being ran by the army council of the IRA

You stated earlier about the price of peace - so we can now assume you voted against the GFA, (or feel free to correct me) or you think you and all sides involved get to cherry pick the parts of it you deem palatable to your own mind.

Doesn't work like that.

I'm chalking you down as hypocritical.

Titclamp

https://twitter.com/inkblotistan/status/1233254321367764994?s=20

McMurphy

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

A lot of Shinnerbots love the old IRA connection thing, and are pissed off because people are making a big deal about it. They love Dessie Ellis and Gerry Kelly and the lads. Cult hero’s.

The shinnerbots get angry when they realise the vast majority of Free Staters aren’t that keen on the shady lads from West Belfast.

As do a lot of FG lads.






But ssssshhhhhh...... don't tell anyone.

holyhead

Let’s say there was a SF minister for justice. Under his/her reign the person behind the assassination of Denis Donaldson is captured by AGS or the PSNI. If that person falls under the SF/IRA umbrella that opens up a can of worms politically.

Bishop of hope

KWAG2019 wrote: »

Please read article very carefully.

Evidence of the belief of a Garda chief superintendent that an accused is a member of the IRA is routinely used in membership trials. Privilege can be claimed on the material underlying the belief, usually on the grounds of the protection of life and property, the protection of ongoing and future investigations and the security of the State.

Although judges in past trials ruled that the Special Criminal Court itself should view any underlying files relevant to belief evidence, this is the first case in which the court ruled that such material should be viewed by the prosecution.

The prosecution doesent judge the case.
And how did these men manage to get off if the Garda's word was enough?

jm08

holyhead wrote: »

Let’s say there was a SF minister for justice. Under his/her reign the person behind the assassination of Denis Donaldson is captured by AGS or the PSNI. If that person falls under the SF/IRA umbrella that opens up a can of worms politically.

Unlikely, since the Real IRA say they did it. Anyway, there is a separation between the judiciary and the state in this part of the island. The Min. for Justice could not do anything about it.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Why do posters keep asking silly questions that have been answered comprehensively already.

Not really though. A series of ifs and buts on 'why not'. I recall similar discussions where folk are 'entitled to due process'.

I guess 'The pitchfork brigade and the excuse-makers' gonna pitchfork.

blanch152 wrote: »

Are those journalists concerned about whether the IRA are a threat or whether they exercise undue control over a political party in the South?

I would say no, they are not. There were many issues then and still today concerning the well-being of the Irish public they chose not to cover during the entire election. It was disgusting to see. Imagine you have a relative several hours on a hospital trolley, or you had to move back home with your parents, or you became homeless and on and on and all that's getting coverage in the national media is shinner stories you couldn't care less about?

blanch152 wrote: »

Because the people they are talking about were involved in organising and directing terrorism. Any right-minded person would be concerned about what those people get up to afterwards.

I would be more concerned if they remained as was. 'Oh nos, they've gone peacefully into politics!' :eek:

It was scaremongering to drum up anti-SF sentiment. Harris knew this and so did the journos. This is not a random question that comes over a journalist allegedly sent to do a puff piece on the new Garda recruits graduation.

Ex-'RA heads are involved in politics after signing up to peace agreement many years earlier shocker.

dxhound2005

jm08 wrote: »

Unlikely, since the Real IRA say they did it. Anyway, there is a separation between the judiciary and the state in this part of the island. The Min. for Justice could not do anything about it.

Still to be proved, whenever the suspect comes back from jail in Scotland to face trial. Could be ten years. Gerry Adams was accused by another Republican of ordering the murder but he denies it. One oddity is the fact that the RIRA waited for three years to claim it.

You understand the separation of powers, unlike some earlier posters who think that the Gardai are the same branch of the State as the judiciary.

James Brown

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Still to be proved, whenever the suspect comes back from jail in Scotland to face trial. Could be ten years. Gerry Adams was accused by another Republican of ordering the murder but he denies it. One oddity is the fact that the RIRA waited for three years to claim it.

You understand the separation of powers, unlike some earlier posters who think that the Gardai are the same branch of the State as the judiciary.

Tell that to Clare Daly, Paul Murphy or Maurice McCabe. Blurred lines between the Garda, State and Judiciary IMO.

McMurphy

Bowie wrote: »

Tell that to Clare Daly, Paul Murphy or Maurice McCabe. Blurred lines between the Garda, State and Judiciary IMO.

Or Catherine Kelly

dxhound2005

Bowie wrote: »

It was scaremongering to drum up anti-SF sentiment. Harris knew this and so did the journos. This is not a random question that comes over a journalist allegedly sent to do a puff piece on the new Garda recruits graduation.

Ex-'RA heads are involved in politics after signing up to peace agreement many years earlier shocker.

Those who think that the separation of powers means that he should have refused to answer, or said No Comment, do not understand the concept of the separation of powers.

The conspiracy theory is still going on. The truth is more prosaic, it was a scheduled event in Templemore, which just happened to coincide with Mary Lou putting herself forward to be Taoiseach. Any self respecting journalist would ask the question. If there was an actual conspiracy between the Commissioner and others, then heads should roll.

I see another area where journalists could do us a service. Find out if SF politicians are actually paying massive donations to the party out of their salaries, and living on small money.

jm08

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Still to be proved, whenever the suspect comes back from jail in Scotland to face trial. Could be ten years. Gerry Adams was accused by another Republican of ordering the murder but he denies it. One oddity is the fact that the RIRA waited for three years to claim it.

You understand the separation of powers, unlike some earlier posters who think that the Gardai are the same branch of the State as the judiciary.

The newspaper report that I read said that the person wanted from Scotland was a dissident republican. Do you understand the difference between PIRA and dissident republicans? In case you don't, dissidents are made up of former PIRA members, real IRA, etc. who do not support the Peace Process. They hate Sinn Fein just as much as you do.

edit: and I dare say Sinn Fein are not too happy with them either since they have issued death threats to most of its leaders.

Addition: With regard to separation of powers - I can't recall any instance where the Government/Oireachtas had any due influence over the judiciary whereas there have been difficulties in the past between the Gardai and the State.

James Brown

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Those who think that the separation of powers means that he should have refused to answer, or said No Comment, do not understand the concept of the separation of powers.

The conspiracy theory is still going on. The truth is more prosaic, it was a scheduled event in Templemore, which just happened to coincide with Mary Lou putting herself forward to be Taoiseach. Any self respecting journalist would ask the question. If there was an actual conspiracy between the Commissioner and others, then heads should roll.

I see another area where journalists could do us a service. Find out if SF politicians are actually paying massive donations to the party out of their salaries, and living on small money.

Not what I said. I said he, IMO, knew why he was being asked.
That's the only claim here, that it was asked because of the political climate and Harris, unless a buffoon, was aware of that, regardless of why he answered.
It was designed to damage SF and all parties involved would have been aware of that. We can judge them as we may.
I'd like if journalists covered other issues arguably of more public importance in equal measure.

dxhound2005

Bowie wrote: »

Not what I said. I said he, IMO, knew why he was being asked.
That's the only claim here, that it was asked because of the political climate and Harris, unless a buffoon, was aware of that, regardless of why he answered.
It was designed to damage SF and all parties involved would have been aware of that. We can judge them as we may.
I'd like if journalists covered other issues arguably of more public importance in equal measure.

Do you want the media to self censor when it comes to SF, or would you like the party to impose it if they get into power? In the past whenever there were issues of public importance, the media did not hold back on Garda scandals. Politicians like Daly and Wallace got a fair hearing, arguably to the detriment of government parties.

I see nothing wrong with them asking about the connection between SF and the IRA, if there is a possibility of a SF Taoiseach.

FrancieBrady

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Do you want the media to self censor when it comes to SF, or would you like the party to impose it if they get into power? In the past whenever there were issues of public importance, the media did not hold back on Garda scandals. Politicians like Daly and Wallace got a fair hearing, arguably to the detriment of government parties.

I see nothing wrong with them asking about the connection between SF and the IRA, if there is a possibility of a SF Taoiseach.

There is a family just now getting some media traction finally after campaigning for years (the Sean O'Fearghaill case).
When Mairia Cahill made her as yet unproven allegations about SF's part in her rape/abuse, the media were all over it, at once and for months.

Have you heard Michael Martin being doorstepped about it yet? Do you think he should be?
Was there a single mention of it when Sean was being anointed as Ceann Comhairle?

Most of the media know how to stay on side in this country. Hugh O'Connell or Fionnan Sheehan, all showing their bias unashamedly on Twitter this last while. There is also a photo doing the rounds of a long list of IT headlines showing how many negative headlines they printed about SF.

It's unrelenting and so far, fruitless for them, but they persist.

James Brown

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Do you want the media to self censor when it comes to SF, or would you like the party to impose it if they get into power? In the past whenever there were issues of public importance, the media did not hold back on Garda scandals. Politicians like Daly and Wallace got a fair hearing, arguably to the detriment of government parties.

I see nothing wrong with them asking about the connection between SF and the IRA, if there is a possibility of a SF Taoiseach.

No. I covered my view quite well.
Me neither. It's about being impartial. They need cover other items of public interest with the same vigor. There was a media bias towards SF only eclipsed currently by the corona virus.

dxhound2005

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There is a family just now getting some media traction finally after campaigning for years (the Sean O'Fearghaill case).
When Mairia Cahill made her as yet unproven allegations about SF's part in her rape/abuse, the media were all over it, at once and for months.

Have you heard Michael Martin being doorstepped about it yet? Do you think he should be?
Was there a single mention of it when Sean was being anointed as Ceann Comhairle?

Most of the media know how to stay on side in this country. Hugh O'Connell or Fionnan Sheehan, all showing their bias unashamedly on Twitter this last while. There is also a photo doing the rounds of a long list of IT headlines showing how many negative headlines they printed about SF.

It's unrelenting and so far, fruitless for them, but they persist.

None of which proves the conspiracy theory that the Commissioner colluded with others who wanted him to damage SF.

I don't like doing the Whatabout thing, but would you give the media any credit for their relentless pursuit of the Aidan McAnespie case? There are a lot more where the media were friendly to the SF cause, and unfriendly to other parties.

FrancieBrady

dxhound2005 wrote: »

None of which proves the conspiracy theory that the Commissioner colluded with others who wanted him to damage SF.

I don't like doing the Whatabout thing, but would you give the media any credit for their relentless pursuit of the Aidan McAnespie case? There are a lot more where the media were friendly to the SF cause, and unfriendly to other parties.

I know Aidan's brother since before Aidan died. He would contend that they had an almighty struggle to interest both the media and southern politicians. He would have no love for a few TD's, I can tell you that for nothing.

And seriously, the unlawful shooting of a young man is not an exclusively 'Sinn Fein' thing, nor should it be. That is just being nasty about it to link it to a SF campaign.

Sinbad_NI

TBH I don't really get the scandal of this headline.

Jerry and Martin were the heads of SF and the PIRA for many many years. The link was there and glaringly obvious to all but those who didn't want to see it, or maybe never read a book, or watched a tv documentary.
To think it's any different now is just simply bizzare.

Anyone can run for parliament, look anywhere in the world and you'll find crazies. We've our fair share up here FFS :-(
People get what they vote for at the end of the day. They'll be judged them by their achievements going forward like all the rest.

James Brown

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

TBH I don't really get the scandal of this headline.

Jerry and Martin were the heads of SF and the PIRA for many many years. The link was there and glaringly obvious to all but those who didn't want to see it, or maybe never read a book, or watched a tv documentary.
To think it's any different now is just simply bizzare.

Anyone can run for parliament, look anywhere in the world and you'll find crazies. We've our fair share up here FFS :-(
People get what they vote for at the end of the day. They'll be judged them by their achievements going forward like all the rest.

That's it really.
It's the difference between back in the fifties or sixties saying Fine Gael have former Blueshirts in the party and a group of fascist blueshirts control Fine Gael, (Oliver J. Flanagan's "rout the Jews out of this country" views aside).
Or Fianna Fail have former terrorists in the party and a group of terrorists control Fianna Fail, (Haughey's arms smuggling aside).

maccored

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Pal, putting stuff in bold and asking people to read things very slowly smacks of ego to be honest. You’re a Shinner. You have a different moral compass to the rest of us. You think they’re fine, lots of people think SF are a shower of shady scumbags. No amount of debate here is going to change a single opinion.

Oh no - all the 'shady scumbag' shinner supporters (like myself) must be quaking in their boots reading that. Keyboard warrior much (if I added 'pal', would that make me sound tough too?)

James Brown

maccored wrote: »

Oh no - all the 'shady scumbag' shinner supporters (like myself) must be quaking in their boots reading that. Keyboard warrior much (if I added 'pal', would that make me sound tough too?)

I think he means non-FG'ers are less arrogant. I assume by 'rest of us' he means FG folk.
Not that I agree with generalising about people in the manner he seems to.

Acosta

Bowie wrote: »

That's it really.
It's the difference between back in the fifties or sixties saying Fine Gael have former Blueshirts in the party and a group of fascist blueshirts control Fine Gael, (Oliver J. Flanagan's "rout the Jews out of this country" views aside).
Or Fianna Fail have former terrorists in the party and a group of terrorists control Fianna Fail, (Haughey's arms smuggling aside).

As you mentioned the arms trial its reminded me that FF left a lot of Nazis into Ireland after the war. Some high ranking ones too. Albert Luykx who was in the SS worked for FF and was involved in arms smuggling.

James Brown

Acosta wrote: »

As you mentioned the arms trial its reminded me that FF left a lot of Nazis into Ireland after the war. Some high ranking ones too. Albert Luykx who was in the SS worked for FF and was involved in arms smuggling.

I think people need to give any ex-IRA affiliates/members in SF the same kind of opportunity FF/FG got 20 odd years after they moved to politics.