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Gardaí: Provo Army Council oversees PIRA & SF

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    #2312
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Runaways wrote: »
    If in his time as head of the PSNI Drew Harris knew there was a secret IRA army council, in Belfast, surely he lapsed in his duty to ruin them up and arrest and charge them with membership of an illegal orginisation, no?

    Why didn’t he?

    Oh yeah. They don’t exist.

    Or!!

    He was tried to say they do by Leo and co for convenient political interference to tarnish SFs romp up the polls

    Which could it be

    you obviously have a serious comprehension problem :rolleyes:


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    #2313
    Runaways
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭Runaways


    blanch152 wrote: »
    The rules of evidence and the threshold needed to obtain a conviction beyond a reasonable doubt have been explained on this thread.

    Maintaining a fiction that it is the easiest thing in the world to arrest and convict these horrible people is a disingenuous argument.

    There’s only one side ‘maintaining a fiction’ here blanch and it’s yourself and a few others here and FGFF


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    #2314
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,668 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Runaways wrote: »
    There’s only one side ‘maintaining a fiction’ here blanch and it’s yourself and a few others here and FGFF

    blanch152 and co have painted themselves into a corner. Im loving the freaking out that they're doing.


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    #2315
    Bishop of hope
    Registered Users Posts: 2,928 ✭✭✭Bishop of hope


    Runaways wrote: »
    There’s only one side ‘maintaining a fiction’ here blanch and it’s yourself and a few others here and FGFF

    A former SF TD isn't too happy with the way SF is run.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/election-2020/sinn-fein-tds-have-zero-influence-and-policies-are-handed-down-says-toibin-38901964.html


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    #2316
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,179 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Bishop of hope wrote: »
    A former SF TD isn't too happy with the way SF is run.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/election-2020/sinn-fein-tds-have-zero-influence-and-policies-are-handed-down-says-toibin-38901964.html

    Peadar 'I need to take the SF vote with me, if I am to survive' Toibin?

    Of course he is going to exploit that narrative. He was happy enough with it until he came up against a policy issue he couldn't live with.

    I wouldn't let some of you naive people loose on your own in the real world if you buy into that without a great deal of caution and skepticism.


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    #2317
    Bishop of hope
    Registered Users Posts: 2,928 ✭✭✭Bishop of hope


    Runaways wrote: »
    There’s only one side ‘maintaining a fiction’ here blanch and it’s yourself and a few others here and FGFF

    Desperation has many forms.
    I was listening to MaryLou on my local radio earlier, she was lambasting Leo for his behaviour, giving out about FF and FG, but still prepared to negotiate a Govt formation with either one or the other, where does truth start and fiction end?


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    #2318
    Bishop of hope
    Registered Users Posts: 2,928 ✭✭✭Bishop of hope


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Peadar 'I need to take the SF vote with me, if I am to survive' Toibin?

    Of course he is going to exploit that narrative. He was happy enough with it until he came up against a policy issue he couldn't live with.

    I wouldn't let some of you naive people loose on your own in the real world if you buy into that without a great deal of caution and skepticism.

    I always do Tbh. I was reading a bit on him in 2015 when he denying the very thing he espoused prior to the election, I'm just trying to sort out if he was more honest while in SF or if he became more honest after he left? :)


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    #2319
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,211 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    There isn't any evidence Gerry was in the IRA, he'd have been charged.


    Darkie Hughes?
    He not alone said he was in the provos but named Adams as having ordered the abduction and murder of Jean McConville . These are simply facts that are out there in the public domain.


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    #2320
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,372 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Bishop of hope wrote: »
    I always do Tbh. I was reading a bit on him in 2015 when he denying the very thing he espoused prior to the election, I'm just trying to sort out if he was more honest while in SF or if he became more honest after he left? :)

    Doesn’t matter, his politics on wanting to control women’s ovaries aren’t compatible with the party and he’s gone. It’s as simple as that really.


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    #2321
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,179 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    Darkie Hughes?
    He not alone said he was in the provos but named Adams as having ordered the abduction and murder of Jean McConville . These are simply facts that are out there in the public domain.

    Why wasn't Adams charged then if Hughes is telling the truth? If it is 'evidence'?

    Do you accept all of what Hughes says or just some of it, because it suits?


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    #2322
    tipptom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,219 ✭✭✭tipptom


    bubblypop wrote: »
    You can believe whatever you like.
    I tend to believe reports that have been put together by police & security services.

    Oh,so you do believe Bertie Ahearn as Taoisigh when he said police and security services briefed him saying Paul Quinn was involved in criminality?


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    #2323
    tipptom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,219 ✭✭✭tipptom


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Why wasn't Adams charged then if Hughes is telling the truth? If it is 'evidence'?

    Do you accept all of what Hughes says or just some of it, because it suits?

    Realdanbreen loves Darkie Hughes because Darkie was a big supporter of Michael Lowry and wanted to kill Gerry Adams.


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    #2324
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,211 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Why wasn't Adams charged then if Hughes is telling the truth? If it is 'evidence'?

    Do you accept all of what Hughes says or just some of it, because it suits?


    When Adams was brought in for questioning McGuinness went on the airwaves straight away threatening to wreck the peace process( so much for them having gone away)if he wasn't released.
    It's actually sickening the way good( and brave, in other words those who went and fought themselves rather than ordering young fellas out) republicans like Hughes, the Toners, Sands and Cahills etc have had their names blackened by gangsters and touts.


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    #2325
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,211 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    tipptom wrote: »
    Realdanbreen loves Darkie Hughes because Darkie was a big supporter of Michael Lowry and wanted to kill Gerry Adams.


    Michael Lowry buried his brother yesterday so anyone with an ounce of class would leave him out of any social media drivel today.


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    #2326
    Bishop of hope
    Registered Users Posts: 2,928 ✭✭✭Bishop of hope


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Doesn’t matter, his politics on wanting to control women’s ovaries aren’t compatible with the party and he’s gone. It’s as simple as that really.

    OK.
    In case you can't get the article if you're not a subscriber, I quote

    "We don’t want a parliamentary party running the organisation,” the senior party officer said. “We want to stay a party of activists. It’s a totally different model. There’s nothing mysterious about it.”

    Mackin has been the party’s director of finance for years and, prior to that, was joint party treasurer with the veteran republican, the late Joe Cahill. Mackin was convicted of IRA membership in the 1970s.

    Three former Sinn Féin elected representatives also told The Irish Times that Martin was correct when he said the party is not controlled by its politicians.

    Speaking off the record, the three politicians all said separately that Sinn Féin was a tightly controlled organisation where unelected officials sought to tell elected representatives what to do.

    One of them said IRA veterans have the greatest influence within the party. “There are no paper walls hiding people,” the politician said. “It’s not a case of IRA figures in a smoky room in Belfast. They are on the ardchomhairle.”

    THE COISTE SEASTA
    The three former Sinn Féin politicians said separately that the party’s standing committee, the Coiste Seasta, is a key body in the running of the party. There are currently eight people on the committee, only one of whom is an elected representative. Five of the eight are from Belfast".

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/inside-sinn-f%C3%A9in-where-power-lies-and-how-decisions-are-made-1.4193138


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    #2327
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,179 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    When Adams was brought in for questioning McGuinness went on the airwaves straight away threatening to wreck the peace process( so much for them having gone away)if he wasn't released.

    Or McGuinness just called the actions of the police as 'political' when there was an election campaign in progress.

    All the allegations against Adams were there for a year and more. Yet they chose to arrest him at that time. Co-incidental?
    About as co-incidental as a journalist co-incidentally asking a leading question of the Garda Commissioner at co-incidentally the right time for some.

    Now if only that Garda Commissioner could be attached to the arrest of Gerry Adams at a similarly c0-incidentially right time for some. If only....

    It's actually sickening the way good( and brave, in other words those who went and fought themselves rather than ordering young fellas out) republicans like Hughes, the Toners, Sands and Cahills etc have had their names blackened by gangsters and touts.

    Ah let's play the 'good 'terrorist' bad 'terrorist'' game so beloved of our high moral grounders!


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    #2328
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,179 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Bishop of hope wrote: »
    OK.
    In case you can't get the article if you're not a subscriber, I quote

    "We don’t want a parliamentary party running the organisation,” the senior party officer said. “We want to stay a party of activists. It’s a totally different model. There’s nothing mysterious about it.”

    Mackin has been the party’s director of finance for years and, prior to that, was joint party treasurer with the veteran republican, the late Joe Cahill. Mackin was convicted of IRA membership in the 1970s.

    Three former Sinn Féin elected representatives also told The Irish Times that Martin was correct when he said the party is not controlled by its politicians.

    Speaking off the record, the three politicians all said separately that Sinn Féin was a tightly controlled organisation where unelected officials sought to tell elected representatives what to do.

    One of them said IRA veterans have the greatest influence within the party. “There are no paper walls hiding people,” the politician said. “It’s not a case of IRA figures in a smoky room in Belfast. They are on the ardchomhairle.”

    THE COISTE SEASTA
    The three former Sinn Féin politicians said separately that the party’s standing committee, the Coiste Seasta, is a key body in the running of the party. There are currently eight people on the committee, only one of whom is an elected representative. Five of the eight are from Belfast".

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/inside-sinn-f%C3%A9in-where-power-lies-and-how-decisions-are-made-1.4193138

    What did you make of a 'current' member of Fianna Fail saying that FF were run exactly the same way, with non elected members directing some policy?


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    #2329
    Bishop of hope
    Registered Users Posts: 2,928 ✭✭✭Bishop of hope


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    What did you make of a 'current' member of Fianna Fail saying that FF were run exactly the same way, with non elected members directing some policy?


    What about what about.........…

    We can't have parliamentarians making decisions can we, SF say so. And claim themselves they aren't run like FF.


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    #2330
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,211 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    FrancieBrady wrote: »

    All the allegations against Adams were there for a year and more. Yet they chose to arrest him at that time. Co-incidental?!


    It's pathetic really that ye don't seem to have a problem with Adams being questioned about the abduction and murder of a woman(BTW how many other party leaders are under suspicion of murder) it's just that the timing of his arrest was wrong.


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    #2331
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    tipptom wrote: »
    Oh,so you do believe Bertie Ahearn as Taoisigh when he said police and security services briefed him saying Paul Quinn was involved in criminality?


    And it doesn't matter one jot. If you think for one minute that it is in anyway an excuse for the horrendous death he got, then there is something wrong with you.
    It's irrelevant.


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    #2332
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Bishop of hope wrote: »
    Fair enough.
    Crucially despite the criticism of his statement and its timing, and the Irish times also takes responsibility for its reporter asking the question, the commissioner didn't state that the garda opinion was fact either, just opinion.
    If it became provable fact I'm sure there would be legal repercussions.

    Just as an aside, in my locality, close to the border, word on the ground was that if brexit had went the way of crossborder checks and customs posts, the disbanded army and council were preparing a campaign of harassment and maybe bombings of custom posts if that had gone ahead.
    I'm sure it was just gossip, but common knowledge isn't always fact is it.

    He has a responsibility as Garda Commissioner not to engage in such things, IMO, but he's free to.

    I'm pretty sure if the GFA was defiled we'd see some form of a return from some quarters.


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    #2333
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,179 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Bishop of hope wrote: »
    What about what about.........…

    We can't have parliamentarians making decisions can we, SF say so. And claim themselves they aren't run like FF.

    That's the point though. SF have a different way of doing things. Nobody has shown how it is any less democratic.
    As soon as this silly 'dark shadowy figures' directive went out, anyone with a brain knew that all party's are influenced and beholden to unelected figures.


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    #2334
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    bubblypop wrote: »
    The report states that the structures of all paramilitary organisations operational during the troubles, remain in place.
    Albeit, no longer active.

    So if the structures remain, why would the army council not remain?

    As for the rant about gardai....... I'm still going to believe they know more than you do about these organisations

    Because they are not active. What's the point? And if it's not active....it's not directing SF obviously.
    It would have been more honest for all involved to say the people from the former IRA army council are still about and engaged with SF regarding policy issues. It's been sold as if they meet, balaclavas on, rifles in the corner and decide what SF does.
    Every party has unelected people in giving guidance or advice on policy. The party decides and the electorate choose. FF/FG need get over it and the media need cover it, but other things too.

    I don't care. Doesn't change my points either way just your perception of the intent behind them, which is an irrelevance. I'll not let FF/FG have a dishonest inch in blocking a change in Irish politics be it SF, the SD's or PBP.


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    #2335
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,179 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    It's pathetic really that ye don't seem to have a problem with Adams being questioned about the abduction and murder of a woman(BTW how many other party leaders are under suspicion of murder) it's just that the timing of his arrest was wrong.

    How many other party leaders were directly involved in a conflict/war?

    The previous generation of party leaders locked away the information about what they were involved in until all parties were dead.


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    #2336
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    blanch152 wrote: »
    I see nothing contradictory in that.

    One is a statement of fact about Sinn Fein being under the control of the Army Council. The other is a statement of fact about the outcome of the election and the Sinn Fein claim of having won the election.

    Nothing contradictory in it. In the same way anyone can acknowledge that Boris Johnson is a thoroughly disgusting racist and misogynist yet at the same time recognise that he has won the mandate to be Prime Minister and that people have voted for him. Ditto Trump, ditto Sinn Fein, in slightly different ways.

    Sinn Fein got the most votes and claimed to have won the election. It is incumbent on them therefore to get on with the process of forming a government, something that they have abysmally failed to do. The Taoiseach is calling on them to get on with what they said they would do. Sinn Fein's inability to find a compromise with any other party says an awful lot about them.

    They are also controlled by the IRA Army Council. That means he can say he won't form a government with them. It would seem by their actions that others like FF, the Greens, Labour and the Soc Dems share this analysis of Sinn Fein. That is all.

    That's not a fact.
    bubblypop wrote: »
    The report states that the structures of all paramilitary organisations operational during the troubles, remain in place.
    Albeit, no longer active.
    ....

    So FF are good enough to partner with despite having the economy melt down and helping FG put us in generational debt and Johnson the racist homophobic ignorant bigot is okay to do business with too and it's okay to call Clare CoCo to do a solid for Trump and it's okay to tell other parties they should go into power sharing with Sinn Fein.....but...ex-IRA are in SF so no? Not credible. Sour grapes and a whinge using innuendo and rumour to hide it.


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    #2337
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,211 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    How many other party leaders were directly involved in a conflict/war?


    conflict/war ?


    We're talking about Adams being arrested and questioned about ordering the abduction and murder of a widow! Don't be painting him to be some sort of Rambo figure running around with a hunting knife clenched between his teeth and a rifle slung across his back!


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    #2338
    tipptom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,219 ✭✭✭tipptom


    bubblypop wrote: »
    You can believe whatever you like.
    I tend to believe reports that have been put together by police & security services.
    bubblypop wrote: »
    And it doesn't matter one jot. If you think for one minute that it is in anyway an excuse for the horrendous death he got, then there is something wrong with you.
    It's irrelevant.
    Its relevant because you say you believe reports by police and security services.

    So you don't believe them or you do, or you just cherrypick for your own agenda?


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    #2339
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,179 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    conflict/war ?


    We're talking about Adams being arrested and questioned about ordering the abduction and murder of a widow! Don't be painting him to be some sort of Rambo figure running around with a hunting knife clenched between his teeth and a rifle slung across his back!

    I wasn't painting him as anything. Just stating a fact that he was directly involved in a conflict/war. Which immediately makes him 'different' to other party leaders.

    Hughes and Price say McConville was an informer, btw. Do you accept she was?


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    #2340
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,211 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I wasn't painting him as anything. Just stating a fact that he was directly involved in a conflict/war. Which immediately makes him 'different' to other party leaders.

    Hughes and Price say McConville was an informer, btw. Do you accept she was?

    She may well have been just like some of the SinnFein inner circle were. But at the end of the day she was a scared pathetic widow with 10 kids dragged from her flat and murdered on the orders of some brave figure sitting at a safe remove.


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    #2341
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    tipptom wrote: »
    [/B]

    Its relevant because you say you believe reports by police and security services.

    So you don't believe them or you do, or you just cherrypick for your own agenda?

    to be perfectly honest, a member of his family worked with a member of mine, also one of my oldest friends was very close to the family during the investigation, so I know what his was or wasn't involved with. Like I said it doesn't matter one bit.
    but yes, I do believe reports by the security services.


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