Ireland vs England Feb 23, 3pm Twickenham

prawnsambo

ionadnapokot wrote: »

what?
catch yourself on. BIG TIME.
dont be coming at me with - get a grip stuff

enough is enough of you telling me what to do or say here.

Calm down mate. You need to be able to take it if you give it.



And shouting really helps nake your point.

prawnsambo

prawnsambo wrote: »

We're not England. There aren't two dozen professional clubs to go looking for replacements.

Because we have the rules bent in our favour...

prawnsambo

Deleted User wrote: »

Because we have the rules bent in our favour...

You'll have to explain that.

prawnsambo

ionadnapokot wrote: »

i should have done this ignore thing a long long time ago

silver linings in every defeat

You'll still be wondering what they're saying behind your back.

Ardillaun

Cooney deserves a start but I’m agnostic on Byrne, e.g. in defence. Tuilagi took quite a few runs at Sexton today. How would Byrne have managed there? At his age, he should be clearly better than Sexton if he’s going to be an equivalent replacement.

prawnsambo

This was one of the most bizarre things I've ever seen in a match at this level. No idea what Farrell was trying to do here. Kind of put me in mind of the kid who didn't want their mammy to leave them in the school on their first day.

Dubinusa

Farrell was not my preferred choice. He should be given time. Rome was'nt built in a day... and so forth.
We are not a very good side! I think we all know that. But, why are Leinster consistently good? I believe it's the coaching and structure in place. So , if Farrell is given time, we will see.
There's nobody on our side that would get into that England side. Imo. They have a belief and a strength we don't have. Our lads looked poorly prepared and hadn't clue what was happening. It was like at halftime , our lads realized the match had started.
Of course, it will be glammed over when we beat Italy. That's a problem, using Italy as a yardstick is nuts.
So I believe RB should take the reins at 10. He's done great for Leinster and we'll never know unless he gets a chance. If he's not up for it, there's Carberry and Burns.
Murray shouldn't be anywhere near Carton house. His form has been dire for over a year. The fault lays squarely on Schmidt, for not giving anyone else a chance and for playing Murray while hurt.
I think we are fcuked at loose head. Healy is on the downhill, Kilcoyne is 31 and Jack hasnt regained any kind of form. After them, the pickings are slim. Porter back to oh?
Toner earned his way back, but he doesn't offer much . Dillane is a better option. He's more dynamic, athletic and a better all rounder. Toner just isn't physical enough. But, there's lads on the way that can be in the reckoning soon. Baird for one, Ahern and even Thornbury.
The summer tour will be crucial. Oz are not a good side. We should beat them. Their world cup was possibly worse than ours.
Change will be here fairly soon. Farrell won't have a choice.

GreeBo

stephen_n wrote: »

It’s amazing the amount of posters who don’t post from one end of the year to the other, who show up when Ireland lyose a game.

If that were true Ireland would only lose 1 game per year...

GreeBo

Farrell doesn't need time to make the decision to retire players.
He needs time with the new blood.
However all of that is meaningless until he makes the tough calls.

Burkie1203

Former Former wrote: »

Yeah exactly - but a personnel change doesn't fix that. Maybe Doris will knock lads over more than POM but it's tinkering on the fringes. Kilcoyne played 55 minutes today lest we forget. Kelleher, I dunno, he's very raw in such a technical position.

None of these are a magic bullet if the team isn't playing well.

We need time to fix things. I would be looking to the November tests for a true gauge of progress. If things aren't looking better by then, then I'll get my pitchfork out too.

Healy looks like a player on a Sharp decline IMO. Kilcoyne is in better form too.

Herring is a good solid pro. Certainly wouldn't be overly concerned about him but would like to see Kelleher given a start or 2

Farrell wanted to start the 6n with Doris at 8. Was this part of a plan to shift how we play which lasted 4 minutes? POM is a good player but nearly all his good work comes destructively. He had two good carries in the lead up to Henshaws try but that is the exception not the norm. He gave away a penalty from which england scored, won a lineout turnover and threw an awful pass to Stockdale in one of the few times we actually got the ball wide with some degree of competence in the first 40. I would expect most forwards to be able to be a nuisance at breakdowns so I don't see that as something exclusive to POM. Our issues are with the ball. IMO that's a weakness of his game.

Murray should have been dropped this time last year. His performances are hurting the team. One "solid" display v Wales and that was seen as justification for the last 12 months.


Outside of that

Toner is finished at this level. The game has moved on. I'd be inclined to give Dillane the bench spot going forward.

Stockdale needs some proper coaching on defence. I wonder if his error yesterday is part of the team not being in the right place mentally for the first 40.

Shefwedfan

prawnsambo wrote: »

This is nonsense. Ross Byrne is very unlikely to be at the level required. He hasn't been for Leinster and he won't be for Ireland. His brother Harry is a much more likely prospect.

When has Ross Byrne not delivered for Leinster?

kilns

On reflection it was a weird game in that we were awful and were hammered physcially but all 3 of Englands scores were preventable, they didnt really look like scoring our defense did hold up quite well, however we will not progress based on this, we need to cause problems going forward and we dont at the moment, even in his cameo Doris showed what he could bring us but our back line play was so predictable, we like to look down our noses at the English and French saying we are much smarter Rugby players but that is bull, we should have seen what was happening and switched the game up with kicks behind.

I dont care about Italy but the French selection will speak volumes, if we see Murray, Healy, Toner, POM, Stockdale and possibly Sexton back for that game, that will be deeply disappointing and point to a few bleak years ahead

stephen_n

GreeBo wrote: »

If that were true Ireland would only lose 1 game per year...

2018

Shefwedfan

kilns wrote: »

On reflection it was a weird game in that we were awful and were hammered physcially but all 3 of Englands scores were preventable, they didnt really look like scoring our defense did hold up quite well, however we will not progress based on this, we need to cause problems going forward and we dont at the moment, even in his cameo Doris showed what he could bring us but our back line play was so predictable, we like to look down our noses at the English and French saying we are much smarter Rugby players but that is bull, we should have seen what was happening and switched the game up with kicks behind.

I dont care about Italy but the French selection will speak volumes, if we see Murray, Healy, Toner, POM, Stockdale and possibly Sexton back for that game, that will be deeply disappointing and point to a few bleak years ahead

Sexton is the team captain, its 3 games into it and people are calling for him to get dropped.....

prawnsambo

Shefwedfan wrote: »

When has Ross Byrne not delivered for Leinster?

That's not what I said. He's still a step down from Sexton. The only thing changing that at the moment is Sexton slipping from his own level.

prawnsambo

kilns wrote: »

On reflection it was a weird game in that we were awful and were hammered physcially but all 3 of Englands scores were preventable, they didnt really look like scoring our defense did hold up quite well, however we will not progress based on this, we need to cause problems going forward and we dont at the moment, even in his cameo Doris showed what he could bring us but our back line play was so predictable, we like to look down our noses at the English and French saying we are much smarter Rugby players but that is bull, we should have seen what was happening and switched the game up with kicks behind.

Yeah. Although to be fair to England, they knew how to exploit our defensive alignment and we didn't seem to have an answer to theirs. Those kicks behind were cleverly selected and although there was space to exploit, our backfield defense was not quick enough to react. That was the most disappointing thing for me. Also a couple of times (at least) their shooters caused a dog leg in defense and we didn't exploit it.

kilns

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Sexton is the team captain, its 3 games into it and people are calling for him to get dropped.....

To be fair he is 34 and no longer the player he used to be and thats understandable. However, his on field decision making was very poor yesterday not seeing what was happening and changing the direction of how we attack.

At 34 he is not going to get any better, in fact he will decline more, people say that the back ups are not good enough, they may not be up to Sexton in his prime levels but if we persist with Sexton until he is 35/36 and then he retires then we are throwing the likes of Byrne, Carberry, Carthy or whoever is in to Twickenham and hoping they hit the ground running and have 2 years out from a World Cup

Sexton wont be dropped but a case can be made for it.

The more obvious players to phase out immediately are Murray, Toner, Healy and OMahony with Stockdale sent back to Ulster to learn the basics

prawnsambo

Murray Kinsella has been working overnight it seems. Has an analysis of how clever England's kicking game was. They just moved us around to make the holes to kick into.

LuckyLloyd

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Sexton is the team captain, its 3 games into it and people are calling for him to get dropped.....

Drop the faux confusion. He was absolutely atrocious yesterday and when his age is considered it’s clearly time to phase him out. Handy for 20 mins off the bench, but it is necessary to give whatever else we have experience.

If he was in some semblance of good form, it might be different. He isn’t so it isn’t.

He should never have received the captaincy. Hindsight 20 : 20 and all that, but given that role to a guy hanging on at the end of his career is all wrong and puts the coach in an avoidably difficult situation.

Rigor Mortis

He was in good form for province, after the WC. He played well in the first two games.

I think it is likely that he is only intended to be captain for 12 - 18 months to let Ryan get a bit more time

Shefwedfan

prawnsambo wrote: »

That's not what I said. He's still a step down from Sexton. The only thing changing that at the moment is Sexton slipping from his own level.

Most player in the World are a step down from Sexton, I do think Byrne should start v Italy

But Sexton is captain and will start v France

Young Byrne looks good but a lot of pressure to be putting on a young guy who has started maybe 2 Pro 14 games, at the moment Frawley is ahead of him at Leinster

With then Carbery injury and continued injury run Byrne is best option going forward, very hard to disqualify a player as not good enough and he hasn’t even had 3 starts, he

Shefwedfan

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Drop the faux confusion. He was absolutely atrocious yesterday and when his age is considered it’s clearly time to phase him out. Handy for 20 mins off the bench, but it is necessary to give whatever else we have experience.

If he was in some semblance of good form, it might be different. He isn’t so it isn’t.

He should never have received the captaincy. Hindsight 20 : 20 and all that, but given that role to a guy hanging on at the end of his career is all wrong and puts the coach in an avoidably difficult situation.

He was playing great rugby prior to injury, also I didn’t see the same complaints after the Scotland and Wales game

Guess you missed all that form???


No 10 can shine when his pack is hammered, last year it was Ross Byrne fault and now Sexton

Are we supposed to throw out a ten after every loss?

lawred2

prawnsambo wrote: »

Murray Kinsella has been working overnight it seems. Has an analysis of how clever England's kicking game was. They just moved us around to make the holes to kick into.

Yes but everyone across that English back line is a fantastic kicker... skills wise and tactics wise. Outside of Murray and Sexton we haven't really developed that aspect of the Irish game. Don't think I've ever seen Stockdale kick the ball outside of a chip in behind (which he's proven to be adept at)

Shefwedfan

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

He was in good form for province, after the WC. He played well in the first two games.

I think it is likely that he is only intended to be captain for 12 - 18 months to let Ryan get a bit more time

Exactly, BOd said the same after WC

prawnsambo

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

He was in good form for province, after the WC. He played well in the first two games.

I think it is likely that he is only intended to be captain for 12 - 18 months to let Ryan get a bit more time

He also made the Midi Olympique team of the week after the Welsh game. So they considered him the best of the five out halves that week.

prawnsambo

lawred2 wrote: »

Yes but everyone across that English back line is a fantastic kicker... skills wise and tactics wise. Outside of Murray and Sexton we haven't really developed that aspect of the Irish game. Don't think I've ever seen Stockdale kick the ball outside of a chip in behind (which he's proven to be adept at)

Henshaw and Ringrose are too. I think we missed Ringrose in that game. He has the step and acceleration to exploit those doglegs that England were leaving in defense.

Shefwedfan

prawnsambo wrote: »

Henshaw and Ringrose are too. I think we missed Ringrose in that game. He has the step and acceleration to exploit those doglegs that England were leaving in defense.

Not sure any back was going to make a huge difference, we got bullied

The forwards are having issues and I think we need a swap out

Also the speed of Murray was too slow, I think they showed it on Virgin, but by the time he lined up a box kick England had time to rearrange and wait for it....its all too predictable...

Cooney made an error but at least he had the English team guessing what he was doing as he made breaks etc, they know exactly what Murray is going to do

kilns

whats the first rule to counteract a rush defence, kick/chip behind them, why didnt we do it?

prawnsambo

kilns wrote: »

whats the first rule to counteract a rush defence, kick/chip behind them, why didnt we do it?

They had more players sweeping iirc.

lawred2

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Not sure any back was going to make a huge difference, we got bullied

The forwards are having issues and I think we need a swap out

Also the speed of Murray was too slow, I think they showed it on Virgin, but by the time he lined up a box kick England had time to rearrange and wait for it....its all too predictable...

Cooney made an error but at least he had the English team guessing what he was doing as he made breaks etc, they know exactly what Murray is going to do

That's what I thought... at least he ran at the line. And ran support lines. It wasn't the same thing over and over.

prawnsambo

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Not sure any back was going to make a huge difference, we got bullied

The forwards are having issues and I think we need a swap out

Also the speed of Murray was too slow, I think they showed it on Virgin, but by the time he lined up a box kick England had time to rearrange and wait for it....its all too predictable...

Cooney made an error but at least he had the English team guessing what he was doing as he made breaks etc, they know exactly what Murray is going to do

They were getting away with being offside too. That time Itoje blocked Murray's box kick; before he took it, he pointed Itoje being offside to Peyper and Itoje took a step back, but remained offside.

kilns

prawnsambo wrote: »

They had more players sweeping iirc.

Thats where you top players come through, they find the space and even if a sweeper picked it up, it would be much better than getting smashed behind the gain line time and time again

ednwireland

kilns wrote: »

whats the first rule to counteract a rush defence, kick/chip behind them, why didnt we do it?

murray tried - wasnt quick enough, sextons kicking was way off yesterday, so that plan was out of the window

prawnsambo

kilns wrote: »

Thats where you top players come through, they find the space and even if a sweeper picked it up, it would be much better than getting smashed behind the gain line time and time again

Guys like Johnny May are hard to stop when they get a head of steam up. And he has a wicked step too. I'm not a mad fan of kicks anyway, 50/50 chances at best and at worst, you could be back in your own 22 scrambling. I would have preferred if we had skip passed over their defense to the wing, but that also opens you up to an intercept. But I take your point. We neither went for the dog legs, kicked into space or tried to pass over their heads.

Buer

Cooney isn't the answer. The lad is 30 in a few months. He's in the form of his life but that still isn't translating to high quality at test level. He deserves to start against Italy but we're talking stop gap here.

We've been spoiled in recent years with the standard of play and success we've enjoyed. We need to accept that there are going to be barren periods and it looks like we're on the cusp of one. Our world class halfback pairing were central to our success over the past 7 years and they're not able to consistently come close to the level they once were. I don't think any other combination we have is anywhere near close to that level either.

But I hope we do see us make an attempt to bring others in and develop them. Unfortunately, I can see us going into a period of bouncing around options as we look to identify the right one or, possibly just as likely, wait for the right one to appear and join professional rugby. England went through a horrible period from 2004-2010 with Hodgson, Wilkinson, Goode, Cipriani etc. all vying for game time.

We've enough talent in Irish rugby to ensure we remain competitive and are in the mix regularly but we need to maximise our potential and make the right selections. There are definitely 3-4 guys who are still in the 23 whose test careers should be forcibly ended after this tournament. They might still be capable of performing to the required level but it's just delaying the inevitable. Toner, POM, Healy should be wound down. Murray and Sexton should be intermittently involved.

We also have to be careful not to throw out the baby with the bathwater and fall into shiny new thing syndrome. Someone like Ronan Kelleher looks like a real prospect. It doesn't change the fact that his first throw was a shocker and he didn't make much of an impact when brought in. He might be the future but he needs to be eased in as he looked overwhelmed yesterday. Guys like Baird and Baloucoune should be going to Australia this summer if we're serious about moving forward. But it's very difficult to get that balance right.

sydthebeat

kilns wrote: »

whats the first rule to counteract a rush defence, kick/chip behind them, why didnt we do it?

they were coming up and in, there was space out wide if we could have played around that rush defense...

our handling wasn't good enough though.. you need accurate long passes on full sprint to do that.
edit: and a second playmaking pivot helps... aki and henshaw are not that

the one time we did make it around, from earls pass to stockdale, we made great ground

is_that_so

prawnsambo wrote: »

They were getting away with being offside too. That time Itoje blocked Murray's box kick; before he took it, he pointed Itoje being offside to Peyper and Itoje took a step back, but remained offside.

And then there's this Itoje move. Pretty shameless but we'd look the other way if he was ours!


https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2020/0224/1117211-ireland-england-deja-vu/

fitz

is_that_so wrote: »

And then there's this Itoje move. Pretty shameless but we'd look the other way if he was ours!


https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2020/0224/1117211-ireland-england-deja-vu/

Refs need to penalised that sh*t. TMO should have flagged it as foul play, it was incredibly blatant, and he just got away with it. Then Farrell did the same. They weren't even sneaky little momentary things, it was extended, obvious cynical infringment. Either of them could have been binned and they'd have had no cause for complaint.

sydthebeat

fitz wrote: »

Refs need to penalised that sh*t. TMO should have flagged it as foul play, it was incredibly blatant, and he just got away with it. Then Farrell did the same. They weren't even sneaky little momentary things, it was extended, obvious cynical infringment. Either of them could have been binned and they'd have had no cause for complaint.

There are no strong refs left in the game.

even while wayne barnes is a good one, hes not exactly renowned for making a tough decision against a home team.

peyper was one of the worst we could have gotten for yesterdays game... allows mayhem... jumpers landing on the wrong side... mauls have become unreffable and id argue a significant number of ones that end in a turnover do so illegally.

i dont mind a certain element of under the cover sh!thousery.. but the blatant in your face crap we got yesterday was crying out to be officiated against.

I cant for the life of me understand why farrell wasnt penalised for that hold on stander ? the TMO reviewed it and failed to call against Farrell

lawred2

sydthebeat wrote: »

There are no strong refs left in the game.

even while wayne barnes is a good one, hes not exactly renowned for making a tough decision against a home team.

peyper was one of the worst we could have gotten for yesterdays game... allows mayhem... jumpers landing on the wrong side... mauls have become unreffable and id argue a significant number of ones that end in a turnover do so illegally.

i dont mind a certain element of under the cover sh!thousery.. but the blatant in your face crap we got yesterday was crying out to be officiated against.

I cant for the life of me understand why farrell wasnt penalised for that hold on stander ? the TMO reviewed it and failed to call against Farrell

Ryan could have been called for some exuberant clear outs as well..

It's mad really... such focus on high tackles and concussion etc but lads were recklessly hitting rucks yesterday..

TheCitizen

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Imagine putting Ross Byrne starting for a potential triple crown game in twickenham? Recipe for disaster.

A disaster like yesterday you mean

prawnsambo

is_that_so wrote: »

And then there's this Itoje move. Pretty shameless but we'd look the other way if he was ours!

I remember Stephen Ferris doing something similar a good few years back. You'd have thought those days were gone, but clearly not. Farrell hanging onto Stander's leg was at least penalised, but it was beyond bizarre.

lawred2

prawnsambo wrote: »

I remember Stephen Ferris doing something similar a good few years back. You'd have thought those days were gone, but clearly not. Farrell hanging onto Stander's leg was at least penalised, but it was beyond bizarre.

the bizarre appeals of "he can't hit me" to Peyper made him sound like a right child

TheCitizen

Dwarf.Shortage wrote: »

He should have left their usernames visible

Yes, why did he blank out their usernames?

Shefwedfan

prawnsambo wrote: »

They were getting away with being offside too. That time Itoje blocked Murray's box kick; before he took it, he pointed Itoje being offside to Peyper and Itoje took a step back, but remained offside.

Murray shouldn’t have box kicked then, if he was standing complaining to ref then the whole England team had the chance to get ready for box kick, he should have switched and threw the ball, do something different

fitz

sydthebeat wrote: »

There are no strong refs left in the game.

even while wayne barnes is a good one, hes not exactly renowned for making a tough decision against a home team.

peyper was one of the worst we could have gotten for yesterdays game... allows mayhem... jumpers landing on the wrong side... mauls have become unreffable and id argue a significant number of ones that end in a turnover do so illegally.

i dont mind a certain element of under the cover sh!thousery.. but the blatant in your face crap we got yesterday was crying out to be officiated against.

I cant for the life of me understand why farrell wasnt penalised for that hold on stander ? the TMO reviewed it and failed to call against Farrell

This is it, refs have become way to passive, imo. It's overcompensating for complaints about officials interrupting the flow of the game, but it's making the game worse.

Teams with excellent discipline don't get the benefit from it. England were offside all day yesterday, and were allowed to make a complete mess of the rucks. The officiating is encouraging teams to not follow the laws, but that's a total crap shoot in terms of knowing whether you'll be penalised from game to game.

I'm all for a flowing game, but letting things go just encourages more of the same behaviour.
I'm sick of refs shouting at people to get their hands off the ball when their already off their feet. The damage is done at that stage, they've slowed the ball and gained advantage illegally, penalised them. Consequences drive behaviour, not warnings or instruction.

It's something we've been really poor at adapting to over the last few years...

kilns

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Murray shouldn’t have box kicked then, if he was standing complaining to ref then the whole England team had the chance to get ready for box kick, he should have switched and threw the ball, do something different

Because he has become so predicable and even he is not good at his predicatable stuff anymore

prawnsambo

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Murray shouldn’t have box kicked then, if he was standing complaining to ref then the whole England team had the chance to get ready for box kick, he should have switched and threw the ball, do something different

Yeah, it might have wrong-footed them if he'd shaped to kick and then passed instead. But at the same time, having called attention to it, you'd think the option of blocking it down from an offside position was gone. Or that it would have been penalised. I was expecting the whistle tbh, but it never came.

Shefwedfan

Buer wrote: »

Cooney isn't the answer. The lad is 30 in a few months. He's in the form of his life but that still isn't translating to high quality at test level. He deserves to start against Italy but we're talking stop gap here.

We've been spoiled in recent years with the standard of play and success we've enjoyed. We need to accept that there are going to be barren periods and it looks like we're on the cusp of one. Our world class halfback pairing were central to our success over the past 7 years and they're not able to consistently come close to the level they once were. I don't think any other combination we have is anywhere near close to that level either.

But I hope we do see us make an attempt to bring others in and develop them. Unfortunately, I can see us going into a period of bouncing around options as we look to identify the right one or, possibly just as likely, wait for the right one to appear and join professional rugby. England went through a horrible period from 2004-2010 with Hodgson, Wilkinson, Goode, Cipriani etc. all vying for game time.

We've enough talent in Irish rugby to ensure we remain competitive and are in the mix regularly but we need to maximise our potential and make the right selections. There are definitely 3-4 guys who are still in the 23 whose test careers should be forcibly ended after this tournament. They might still be capable of performing to the required level but it's just delaying the inevitable. Toner, POM, Healy should be wound down. Murray and Sexton should be intermittently involved.

We also have to be careful not to throw out the baby with the bathwater and fall into shiny new thing syndrome. Someone like Ronan Kelleher looks like a real prospect. It doesn't change the fact that his first throw was a shocker and he didn't make much of an impact when brought in. He might be the future but he needs to be eased in as he looked overwhelmed yesterday. Guys like Baird and Baloucoune should be going to Australia this summer if we're serious about moving forward. But it's very difficult to get that balance right.

Our biggest transition recently was all magnificently handled by Schmidt, moving POC, BOD, D’Arcy, Bowe etc out of the team with no drop in performance, people forget that

I’m not saying Cooney is long term solution but he certainly can make another WC, Heinz is playing for England and is 33, why is everyone so hung up on age?

Murray needs a rest, this playing him in the hope at some stage he will return to form is going on too long, they also need to build for the future so Blade or Casey or whoever should be on bench for Italy match

Looking at team yesterday I would make two changes from starting 15 for France, Doris and Cooney. That’s it. Maybe a case for Earls on for Stockdale

For Italy I can’t see them starting a brand new 9/10 paring, we need a bonus point. So maybe Murray/Byrne and then give Cooney 30 mins again and Cooney/Sexton for France.

Across the rest of pitch I would start POM against Italy, make him captain. Then build around him, maybe he starts at 7 and put Doris/Deegan on with him. rest Stander for France

TheCitizen

prawnsambo wrote: »

I remember Stephen Ferris doing something similar a good few years back. You'd have thought those days were gone, but clearly not. Farrell hanging onto Stander's leg was at least penalised, but it was beyond bizarre.

Should be sinbinned for that sort of stuff. Rugby is often a ridiculous game.