Will you travel? [Mod Note in Post #1 - Travel Discussion Only! Megathread]

owlbethere

faceman wrote: »

Don’t take it personal, I wasn’t having a go at you. Quarantine and lockdown aren’t mutually exclusive.

I posted this in another thread about travel, it’s relevant here.

The advice of the NPHET is not aligned with ECDC or with WHO. In fact research based evidence by WHO shows:

“...evidence shows that restricting the movement of people and goods during public health emergencies is ineffective in most situations and may divert resources from other interventions. Furthermore, restrictions may interrupt needed aid and technical support, may disrupt businesses, and may have negative social and economic effects on the affected countries. However, in certain circumstances, measures that restrict the movement of people may prove temporarily useful, such as in settings with few international connections and limited response capacities.

Travel measures that significantly interfere with international traffic may only be justified at the beginning of an outbreak, as they may allow countries to gain time, even if only a few days, to rapidly implement effective preparedness measures. Such restrictions must be based on a careful risk assessment, be proportionate to the public health risk, be short in duration, and be reconsidered regularly as the situation evolves.

Travel bans to affected areas or denial of entry to passengers coming from affected areas are usually not effective in preventing the importation of cases but may have a significant economic and social impact.”

How on earth did you come to the conclusion that I took your post personally?

Del Griffith

owlbethere wrote: »

Testing at airports isn't going to be the solution either. Testing with quick results, it might give people a false sense of security with the virus. A negative result will have people going into communities and mixing with people but what if they picked up the virus along their travels but there wasn't enough virus to be detected at the time of the test?

What if What what if

gral6

Get on with fu... virus and live your life. It is not going anywhere whether you stay at home or travel around the world

Tenzor07

With regards to the form you have to fill in at the ports, I wonder how the data from that is handled.

Is it available only to contact tracers in the HSE?
Or is it shared with the Gardai also?
Can the data be shared with employers?
Is the data attached to your passport?
If you travel to and from the state within a 14 day period a couple of times do you have to fill out the form twice?

faceman

Tenzor07 wrote: »

With regards to the form you have to fill in at the ports, I wonder how the data from that is handled.

Is it available only to contact tracers in the HSE?
Or is it shared with the Gardai also?
Can the data be shared with employers?
Is the data attached to your passport?
If you travel to and from the state within a 14 day period a couple of times do you have to fill out the form twice?

Yes
No
No
No
Yes

fisgon

I flew to Spain yesterday. I will be here for 4, or maybe 6 weeks. Spain has recently dropped its quarantine for people coming in from the EU, so I decided to come here.

To listen to Tony Holohan (and in general I agree with him), you would think that if someone goes abroad and comes back to Ireland, they are inevitably going to bring the virus with them. This is nonsense. There is as much chance of someone travelling from Dublin to Galway bringing the virus with them as there is of me taking it from Madrid to Dublin when I return in August - the infection rates in Dublin and Madrid are about the same now. In fact, there is less chance as pretty much everyone in Madrid is wearing a mask at all times, even in the streets - far more than in Dublin.

It is about managing risk. If you are going to let people travel around Ireland where they want, and go to pubs and gyms and restaurants, that is much more risky than visiting a foreign country that has a low level of virus. That said, I am going to avoid mixing with people for two weeks when i return, just for the peace of mind of those around me.

faceman

fisgon wrote: »

I flew to Spain yesterday. I will be here for 4, or maybe 6 weeks. Spain has recently dropped its quarantine for people coming in from the EU, so I decided to come here.

To listen to Tony Holohan (and in general I agree with him), you would think that if someone goes abroad and comes back to Ireland, they are inevitably going to bring the virus with them. This is nonsense. There is as much chance of someone travelling from Dublin to Galway bringing the virus with them as there is of me taking it from Madrid to Dublin when I return in August - the infection rates in Dublin and Madrid are about the same now. In fact, there is less chance as pretty much everyone in Madrid is wearing a mask at all times, even in the streets - far more than in Dublin.

It is about managing risk. If you are going to let people travel around Ireland where they want, and go to pubs and gyms and restaurants, that is much more risky than visiting a foreign country that has a low level of virus. That said, I am going to avoid mixing with people for two weeks when i return, just for the peace of mind of those around me.

Here here!

How was your experience navigating Dublin airport? Much in terms of delays from the extra measures?

How was arrival in Madrid! Easy to navigate the airport and extra steps on arrival? (Trying to anticipate what I’ll face with my own journey)

ThatsNotMyCat

Does a 14 day quarantine mean you have to stay in the country for a minimum of 2 weeks? Could my husband drive to Ireland with me and return to UK (by flight) three or four days later (myself and baby staying on)

faceman

ThatsNotMyCat wrote: »

Does a 14 day quarantine mean you have to stay in the country for a minimum of 2 weeks? Could my husband drive to Ireland with me and return to UK (by flight) three or four days later (myself and baby staying on)

Yes he can

Polar101

fisgon wrote: »

I flew to Spain yesterday. I will be here for 4, or maybe 6 weeks. Spain has recently dropped its quarantine for people coming in from the EU, so I decided to come here.

I hope you have a good time. Was it very quiet at the airport and on the plane, as in was it very different to the usual?

ThatsNotMyCat

faceman wrote: »

Yes he can

Thank you, I’ve been trying to find something online. Appreciate it

[QUOTE=fisgon;113889164

It is about managing risk. If you are going to let people travel around Ireland where they want, and go to pubs and gyms and restaurants, that is much more risky than visiting a foreign country that has a low level of virus. That said, I am going to avoid mixing with people for two weeks when i return, just for the peace of mind of those around me.[/QUOTE]

You can do what you wish but your logic is flawed-,I’m attacking your post and not you and what you’re doing btw
We have a low level of Covid infection right now-if inbound travel to this country is limited we’ll maintain that level relative to other countries.
Going abroad exposes you to people from countries who have higher levels of Covid risk - I.e English visiting Spain for example

And what are most going to do in Spain? Go to bars, restaurants etc

It’s your choice what you do- but your logic for doing it is flawed

faceman

Deleted User wrote: »

You can do what you wish but your logic is flawed-,I’m attacking your post and not you and what you’re doing btw
We have a low level of Covid infection right now-if inbound travel to this country is limited we’ll maintain that level relative to other countries.
Going abroad exposes you to people from countries who have higher levels of Covid risk - I.e English visiting Spain for example

And what are most going to do in Spain? Go to bars, restaurants etc

It’s your choice what you do- but your logic for doing it is flawed

Let me give you 2 scenarios, tell me which one sounds safest to you.

Country A have reopened bars and restaurants with reduced social distancing measures in place in bars than other public places and businesses without any scientific justification for such as reduction. Face masks aren't mandatory.

Country B has a greater social distance requirement and face mask are mandatory except when eating or drinking. This is line with WHO and ECDC guidelines. Compliance is strictly enforced.

Which of those 2 options sounds more palatable and safe? Country B obviously.

Those 2 countries exist.

Country A is Ireland

Country B is Spain

Tenzor07

Deleted User wrote: »

We have a low level of Covid infection right now-if inbound travel to this country is limited we’ll maintain that level relative to other countries.
Going abroad exposes you to people from countries who have higher levels of Covid risk - I.e English visiting Spain for example
And what are most going to do in Spain? Go to bars, restaurants etc

Ok, low levels of infection in Ireland true, so if you curtail travel into the country how long do you propose this restriction remain?
Until there's a cure, 2022 or 2025 perhaps?
Until the HSE can provide more ICU beds for Covid patients, more testing? What was the last 3 months of lockdown about then where the irish people did what Tony told them all to do and reduced deaths and new infections to single figures?

Maybe for another 6 months, open the borders then in December for Christmas during Winter flu season?

atahuapla

fisgon wrote: »

I flew to Spain yesterday. I will be here for 4, or maybe 6 weeks. Spain has recently dropped its quarantine for people coming in from the EU, so I decided to come here.

To listen to Tony Holohan (and in general I agree with him), you would think that if someone goes abroad and comes back to Ireland, they are inevitably going to bring the virus with them. This is nonsense. There is as much chance of someone travelling from Dublin to Galway bringing the virus with them as there is of me taking it from Madrid to Dublin when I return in August - the infection rates in Dublin and Madrid are about the same now. In fact, there is less chance as pretty much everyone in Madrid is wearing a mask at all times, even in the streets - far more than in Dublin.

It is about managing risk. If you are going to let people travel around Ireland where they want, and go to pubs and gyms and restaurants, that is much more risky than visiting a foreign country that has a low level of virus. That said, I am going to avoid mixing with people for two weeks when i return, just for the peace of mind of those around me.

You’ve obviously convinced yourself you’ll be fine and no risk to others so there isn’t much point talking to you.
For others reading this - no matter how careful you think you’ll be at avoiding people when you’re abroad, you have zero control over it when you’re in a metal tube in the sky.
26 passengers tested positive after getting off a flight from DXB > HKG last Sat.
Enjoy your Sangria.

faceman

faceman wrote: »

Let me give you 2 scenarios, tell me which one sounds safest to you.

Country A have reopened bars and restaurants with reduced social distancing measures in place in bars than other public places and businesses without any scientific justification for such as reduction. Face masks aren't mandatory.

Country B has a greater social distance requirement and face mask are mandatory except when eating or drinking. This is line with WHO and ECDC guidelines. Compliance is strictly enforced.

Which of those 2 options sounds more palatable and safe? Country B obviously.

Those 2 countries exist.

Country A is Ireland

Country B is Spain

Getting to Spain alone- going through a Spanish airport- increases your chances of getting Covid - then going to bars and restaurants where an international crowd are frequenting ?
Sorry now but your argument is also grossly flawed- staying on the island of Ireland in 2020 and limited influx of foreign visitors and limited interactions with those foreign visitors is many times safer than getting a 3 hour flight to Spain

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Ok, low levels of infection in Ireland true, so if you curtail travel into the country how long do you propose this restriction remain?
Until there's a cure, 2022 or 2025 perhaps?
Until the HSE can provide more ICU beds for Covid patients, more testing? What was the last 3 months of lockdown about then where the irish people did what Tony told them all to do and reduced deaths and new infections to single figures?

Maybe for another 6 months, open the borders then in December for Christmas during Winter flu season?

That’s not the queston at hand- the question is which is less riskier this summer, staying at home or travelling abroad. The answer is staying at home

faceman

Deleted User wrote: »

Getting to Spain alone- going through a Spanish airport- increases your chances of getting Covid - then going to bars and restaurants where an international crowd are frequenting ?
Sorry now but your argument is also grossly flawed- staying on the island of Ireland in 2020 and limited influx of foreign visitors and limited interactions with those foreign visitors is many times safer than getting a 3 hour flight to Spain

Actually, going through a Spanish airport is less risky than going through an airport in Ireland - face masks are mandatory and Spanish airports perform temperature checks on all passengers in transit. No airport, bus station, port, or any other terminal for public transport in Ireland can claim the same.

The ECDC and WHO have numerous details reports and journals on their websites on the effectiveness of travel bans, or lack thereof as the case may be, that detail why travel bans are ineffective after the initial stages of a pandemic. The ECDC has already stated that they see no reason for EU borders not to reopen at the end of June subject to certain criteria being met.

Therefore we need to be looking at measures to manage inter EU travel, not prevent it. Ireland appears to be trying to prevent it, which is unsustainable and ignoring the need to move to the "new reality" we keep hearing about.

The virus won't go away until there is a vaccine or treatment. Borders cant stay closed indefinitely.

Exception to this though is opening our borders to high risk countries that are out of control such as USA, UK, Russia etc.

boege

The virus will spread with international travel. How do people think it spread in the first place - airports will contain people coming from areas with high and low rates of infection and, unfortunately, the highest rate of infection will be the lowest common denominator.

This is how it originally spread and the evidence is already emerging. Today they are reporting at least six cases out of 23 associated with international travel and they have expressed concern.

I had believed that we would see a summer mostly free of the virus but now I fear we will see infections jump before the end of August. I hope I am wrong but I ask myself, why will it be different if we open up foreign travel (two-way) again?

faceman

boege wrote: »

The virus will spread with international travel. How do people think it spread in the first place - airports will contain people coming from areas with high and low rates of infection and, unfortunately, the highest rate of infection will be the lowest common denominator.

This is how it originally spread and the evidence is already emerging. Today they are reporting at least six cases out of 23 associated with international travel and they have expressed concern.

I had believed that we would see a summer mostly free of the virus but now I fear we will see infections jump before the end of August. I hope I am wrong but I ask myself, why will it be different if we open up foreign travel (two-way) again?

You are right to some degree. Allowing travellers to Ireland from the US, UK, Brazil, Iraq, Russia and Sweden is bonkers. Banning travel to all countries rather than tackling the issue head on is even more bonkers.

Travel bans only work in the initial stages of an outbreak and experts agree are more harmful than good after that.

You also have to note that the landscape has changed since February/March. Mask wearing, stricter hygiene etc.

No country will ever be virus free until there is a vaccine. It took 28 years to eradicate small pox from the planet. Even if we start the clock ticking from when we have a vaccine ready to mass produce, it still took 5 years to eradicate smallpox.

Should we close our borders for 5 years? I'm sure you agree that makes no sense.

Should we close our borders to USA, UK, Brazil, Iraq, Russia and Sweden? Logic might seem to say yes. But what about cargo/freight/workers/economic travellers? Do we make exceptions for those? Are we deeming them less risky? Or course not however if we are saying yes to those types of travellers, we are acknowledging that there is a line that needs to be drawn between virus vs economy.

But I would completely support anything initiative that prevents tourism from those countries.

Please bear in mind though, Ireland never declared a national health emergency so our borders never closed. The quarantine thing of 2 weeks is useless.

The_Brood

So the EU is officially reopening, but Ireland is not. How does that make sense? Is Ireland not part of the EU any more? First time ever open defiance?

Thelonious Monk

I'm going to my folks in Spain on Saturday, indefinitely. Well if the flight still goes ahead I'm not taking it for granted yet who knows what may happen. I have masks for the airport and plane and I'll only be coming in contact with my parents really. And if I kill them by bringing the disease I get their house, so win win. It's quiet this year where they are and you eat outside everywhere anyway. Supermarkets etc are more spacious and not as packed as Dublin.
The small bit of work I can do at the moment can still be done online but hoping to spend the rest of the summer on the med.

faceman

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I'm going to my folks in Spain on Saturday, indefinitely. Well if the flight still goes ahead I'm not taking it for granted yet who knows what may happen. I have masks for the airport and plane and I'll only be coming in contact with my parents really. And if I kill them by bringing the disease I get their house, so win win. It's quiet this year where they are and you eat outside everywhere anyway. Supermarkets etc are more spacious and not as packed as Dublin.
The small bit of work I can do at the moment can still be done online but hoping to spend the rest of the summer on the med.

See you on the plane!

(Well assuming we are going to the same place!)

tobefrank321

faceman wrote: »

You are right to some degree. Allowing travellers to Ireland from the US, UK, Brazil, Iraq, Russia and Sweden is bonkers. Banning travel to all countries rather than tackling the issue head on is even more bonkers.

Travel bans only work in the initial stages of an outbreak and experts agree are more harmful than good after that.

You also have to note that the landscape has changed since February/March. Mask wearing, stricter hygiene etc.

No country will ever be virus free until there is a vaccine. It took 28 years to eradicate small pox from the planet. Even if we start the clock ticking from when we have a vaccine ready to mass produce, it still took 5 years to eradicate smallpox.

Should we close our borders for 5 years? I'm sure you agree that makes no sense.

Should we close our borders to USA, UK, Brazil, Iraq, Russia and Sweden? Logic might seem to say yes. But what about cargo/freight/workers/economic travellers? Do we make exceptions for those? Are we deeming them less risky? Or course not however if we are saying yes to those types of travellers, we are acknowledging that there is a line that needs to be drawn between virus vs economy.

But I would completely support anything initiative that prevents tourism from those countries.

Please bear in mind though, Ireland never declared a national health emergency so our borders never closed. The quarantine thing of 2 weeks is useless.

What experts are these now? All experts I've seen including on NPHET have said travel bans or restrictions are the way to go regardless of when they happen. Unfortunately NPHET were late to the party in this regard, they should have imposed them back in March. I agree with Holohan that 2020 needs to be the year of staycation. Otherwise in a few months we will be back at square one and reimposing lockdowns.

tobefrank321

The_Brood wrote: »

So the EU is officially reopening, but Ireland is not. How does that make sense? Is Ireland not part of the EU any more? First time ever open defiance?

The EU are taking a massive risk. The southern European countries are heavily dependent on tourism. In some regions of these countries such as their islands, it probably accounts for something like 90% of GDP.

faceman

tobefrank321 wrote: »

What experts are these now? All experts I've seen including on NPHET have said travel bans or restrictions are the way to go regardless of when they happen. Unfortunately NPHET were late to the party in this regard, they should have imposed them back in March. I agree with Holohan that 2020 needs to be the year of staycation. Otherwise in a few months we will be back at square one and reimposing lockdowns.

The WHO and ECDC have multiple reports and journals on their website about it. There are reports on the WHO website dating back to previous pandemics which say the same thing.

There are also numerous independent reports on the matter too.

Its also worth noting that in China during their lockdown, cases of Coronavirus spread by people who went undetected as they found ways to circumnavigate the lockdown. Hence the importance or contact tracing and legitimately tracking movement. This is also documented by research.

If Holohan is serious about a travel ban, why has Ireland not declared a national health emergency and closed the borders like the rest of the EU had done? Why are travellers from NI excluded from quarantine? Why were foreign nationals excluded from the 2km, 5km and country restricted distance ban?

As a footnote, I used to share your view. One of the great things the academic community did during the crisis was allowed free access to any coronavirus research to anyone. Lots of journals and research articles are available online for view. It was only after reviewing papers did my views update.

ednwireland

easy for someone on 200k a year to say cancel your travel plans lots of these people wont get their money back and wont be able to afford a staycation

Ignoring the two week quarantine after returning to Ireland after international travel is a slap in the face to all the **** front line workers had to go through the last few months.

It's selfish and grossly irresponsible.

deckie66

Big change tomorrow - 1 July

Just did a count on the Dublin Airport site and Ryanair have 53 flights departing tomorrow compared to just 6 or 7 fights today

The_Brood

tobefrank321 wrote: »

The EU are taking a massive risk. The southern European countries are heavily dependent on tourism. In some regions of these countries such as their islands, it probably accounts for something like 90% of GDP.

But Ireland is in the EU, so.....? Unless there has been an IREXIT unannounced I don't understand how Ireland is just doing its own thing.

stephenjmcd

deckie66 wrote: »

Big change tomorrow - 1 July

Just did a count on the Dublin Airport site and Ryanair have 53 flights departing tomorrow compared to just 6 or 7 fights today

Yup tomorrow really steps up in terms of all airlines looking through the departures