Will you travel? [Mod Note in Post #1 - Travel Discussion Only! Megathread]

Damiencm

stephenjmcd wrote:

Northern Ireland to relax quarantine for low and medium risk countries. Well there you go the approach in the Republic is now completely and utterly pointless when you can fly to Belfast

This was always inevitable.

I fear infections will likely increase significantly over the coming months now.

BUT travel in and of itself will not be the main reason for the increase.

Sure, infections will be imported and this has been happening pretty much continually since March anyway.

But those imported infections can be contained within small clusters and often within family networks.

But they won't be because social distancing has gone out the window and national leadership is missing in action.

If an individual enters the state with Covid19 unbeknownst to themselves the damage they would actually do would be pretty limited if some fairly basic, common sense actions were taken.

Firstly by my reckoning we are two weeks into "mandatory" face covering on public transport yet you can freely get on any bus without a mask. Where is the government leadership? If NPHET are independent why are they not screaming blue murder about this at every opportunity? ( They get enough airtime).

Secondly, why not take the simple step of making face coverings mandatory in Supermarkets & shopping malls. Put the onus on the operators to enforce the rules which will be adhered to very quickly if the penalty for non compliance is closure for a period. The Supermarket sector is dominated by Musgrave's, Tesco, Dunnes, Lidl and Aldi. Just 5 companies. It would be very simple to call them into a room and tell them that from x date face coverings will be mandatory, go get prepared.

Thirdly, Pubs and restaurants... a tricky nut to crack and unfortunately drunk people can't social distance. I know Garda resources are light but the only possible way to make this work would be to make an extreme example early on of a handful of operators who are non compliant. That's the only hope we have short of forcing them to close again.

If there was leadership shown on the above 3 items, suddenly the opportunity for a incoming infected traveller to cause havoc is largely removed.

The WHO is now pretty clear on the fact that we will be living with this virus for an unknown period going forward and that we have to learn to live beside it.

The government, NPHET and unfortunately large sections of the media only appear interested is scapegoating people be they people who dare to go on a holiday for a week or young people who congregate in groups. Like let's get real, who actually expects teens and young adults to not mix and socialise??!!! For an indefinite period, come on...

SimonTemplar

The lack of mask wearing in shops and public transport should be getting a lot more media attention. I've also noticed in my local supermarket that a lot more people recently are just walking past the hand sanitizer station. A few months ago, almost everyone was using it.

If a person gets COVID abroad and ends up passing it on to multiple people here because that person doesn't wear a mask or practice social distance etc, it would be incorrect to blame travel entirely for that outbreak.

The message should be to follow the mask wearing / social distance advice after travelling not banning travel entirely.

The government really needs to put the legal responsibility on companies to ensure their customers are following the correct COVID procedures.

Wallander

It'll be interesting to see if the current slight uptick in cases in Ireland holds whether that means the green list will be longer than suggested (as Ireland will have a more normal infection rate).

I think Ireland really got ahead of itself by drawing attention to its incredibly low rates when the figures were always going to look good right at the end of one of the longest lockdowns compared to countries that opened bars and restaurants etc months ago.

The_Brood

And again the official government statement continues to be "we do not want you to travel, we will publish soon a list of countries where you are free to travel and we have no problems with you traveling, except that we do not want you to travel."

At what point does this cross over from being stupidly contradictory to straight out trolling the public?

Limpy

Arlene and Boris must be smiling like Cheshire cats, dictating Ireland's travel policy

Tenzor07

The_Brood wrote: »

And again the official government statement continues to be "we do not want you to travel, we will publish soon a list of countries where you are free to travel and we have no problems with you traveling, except that we do not want you to travel."
At what point does this cross over from being stupidly contradictory to straight out trolling the public?

It's the worst kind of inaction and lack of leadership, we had Holohan practically running the country for a few months while Leo skipped around doing photo ops and sunbathing with his bessies in the park.

Now we have a 14 day isolation policy in place that's a blanket ban on tourists from any country, even those with far less deaths and infections than Ireland... It doesn't discriminate, just keeps everyone from Brazilians to Icelanders out. Further killing the tourist sector and shedding jobs.

Family groups are all but resigned now to not having a holiday this summer, the longer this is dragged out the less will go, Government by wearing people down!

MrMischief

Two quick ones from my personal experience over the last week;

- Last weekend, An Australian backpacking couple arrive at a Dublin City Center hostel for check-in and as part of the Covid check in process they are required to document country or countries of origin. Australia via a 2 month stopover in Brazil.

- A taxi driver friend picks up a young English couple from the airport and drives them to pick up the keys for their long weekend Airbnb stay. 'They had a tough lockdown and needed to get away for a break'.

Given the industry I work in, I was all onboard with the early lockdown and restrictions throughout March and April. However, working from home since then and having regular conference calls with Germans, Italians, French and other European countries it has quickly become apparent that we have no exit strategy whatsoever!

The biggest cop-out at this stage is saying no to travel and no to opening up offices and no to schools etc. In my industry, no is not an option. You work around problems by putting systems & processes (which is data driven) in place to mitigate that risk otherwise nothing would ever get done! In years to come, we will be looking at another tribunal and people will come to come realise how many wrong turns the 'people in power' have taken - especially over the last couple of weeks.

Going back to my first story as an example, hostels in Ireland were allowed to open (and have opened) at the last Phase of the lockdown but yet they have yet to receive guidelines or protocol from anyone on how they should be operating. So in theory a hostel dormitory containing 30 beds (that's even including 2M social distancing as 60 beds capacity) with tourists flying in from all around the globe. And yet, we are advised against going on a plane (as above its the same risk as getting on a bus) to a region that is Covid free and actually do have an exit strategy (as posters above have outlined).

I despair at this stage!

gazzer

I would absolutely LOVE a week in the sun. Been working non stop since March and could definitely do with a break. I'm going to take a week off next month and just do day trips around Ireland. As much as I'd love to be on a sunny beach I am going to hold off until Oct/Nov and see how things are. I just wouldn't enjoy myself if I went abroad at the moment.

moritz1234

Keeping the stats for 3 countries for the 14 days analysis 6th - 20th July for the Green List decision.

4 days rolling day analysis

Republic of Ireland 0.91 cases per 100,000 people
UK 3.25 cases per 100,000 people
Spain 3.59 cases per 100,000 people

Tig98

I'm just back from staying up North, and I am full certain there will be a huge increase in cases up here in the next few weeks.

Huge crowds of people in and outside pubs, staff make a weak attempt at separating groups but most tables are still very close, and loads of people mixing and chatting in the smoking areas. Many restaurants haven't made any significant changes to encourage social distancing, for example back to back booths without any perspex divides between them, and all booths in use.

Hopefully nothing similar will happen at home,where I do think we are handling it better. I know hospitality / customer facing staff have to do a few hours online training in how to combat the virus which is at least a start.

spockety

Is it not blindingly obvious at this stage that it'll be the pubs that are going to do us in?

afro man

MrMischief wrote: »

Two quick ones from my personal experience over the last week;

- Last weekend, An Australian backpacking couple arrive at a Dublin City Center hostel for check-in and as part of the Covid check in process they are required to document country or countries of origin. Australia via a 2 month stopover in Brazil.

- A taxi driver friend picks up a young English couple from the airport and drives them to pick up the keys for their long weekend Airbnb stay. 'They had a tough lockdown and needed to get away for a break'.

Given the industry I work in, I was all onboard with the early lockdown and restrictions throughout March and April. However, working from home since then and having regular conference calls with Germans, Italians, French and other European countries it has quickly become apparent that we have no exit strategy whatsoever!

The biggest cop-out at this stage is saying no to travel and no to opening up offices and no to schools etc. In my industry, no is not an option. You work around problems by putting systems & processes (which is data driven) in place to mitigate that risk otherwise nothing would ever get done! In years to come, we will be looking at another tribunal and people will come to come realise how many wrong turns the 'people in power' have taken - especially over the last couple of weeks.

Going back to my first story as an example, hostels in Ireland were allowed to open (and have opened) at the last Phase of the lockdown but yet they have yet to receive guidelines or protocol from anyone on how they should be operating. So in theory a hostel dormitory containing 30 beds (that's even including 2M social distancing as 60 beds capacity) with tourists flying in from all around the globe. And yet, we are advised against going on a plane (as above its the same risk as getting on a bus) to a region that is Covid free and actually do have an exit strategy (as posters above have outlined).

I despair at this stage!

will add to this local girl and partner just back from Week in Spain
in local supermarket yesterday and wandering around shopping centre
who is supposed to be checking self isolation restrictions..

stargazer 68

afro man wrote: »

will add to this local girl and partner just back from Week in Spain
in local supermarket yesterday and wandering around shopping centre
who is supposed to be checking self isolation restrictions..

They may have been checked. Its a phone call - are you at 21 quarantine street, yes I am, good thanks!

Assetbacked

spockety wrote: »

Is it not blindingly obvious at this stage that it'll be the pubs that are going to do us in?

It only spreads if it's in the community. It's not in the community so the risk is importing it. Travel is where we will undo our hard work.

"Do us in", is that the medical description they use now?

bladespin

Assetbacked wrote: »

It only spreads if it's in the community. It's not in the community so the risk is importing it.

Yes it is, where on earth did you dig that nugget out of?

spockety

Assetbacked wrote: »

It only spreads if it's in the community. It's not in the community so the risk is importing it. Travel is where we will undo our hard work.

"Do us in", is that the medical description they use now?

It never left the community.

CruelSummer

Balearics are making masks compulsory from Monday, outdoors and indoors except the beach...

MickeyLeari

moritz1234 wrote: »

Keeping the stats for 3 countries for the 14 days analysis 6th - 20th July for the Green List decision.

4 days rolling day analysis

Republic of Ireland 0.91 cases per 100,000 people
UK 3.25 cases per 100,000 people
Spain 3.59 cases per 100,000 people

Any chance of adding in mainland France, Germany and Italy?

Damiencm

moritz1234 wrote:

Keeping the stats for 3 countries for the 14 days analysis 6th - 20th July for the Green List decision.

moritz1234 wrote:

4 days rolling day analysis

moritz1234 wrote:

Republic of Ireland 0.91 cases per 100,000 people UK 3.25 cases per 100,000 people Spain 3.59 cases per 100,000 people

Fair play and this will be an interesting follow. The only caveat I would make is internal geography is also worth noting.

Take a country like Spain or France ( or indeed any country significantly larger than Ireland), you could have a large flare up in one city or region while whole swathes of country could be affected to a much lesser extent.

There is no way to allow for this variance in statistical comparisons.

I'm not detracting from your post, I'm purely suggesting that not all statistics are created equaly

facehugger99

spockety wrote: »

Is it not blindingly obvious at this stage that it'll be the pubs that are going to do us in?

What's become blindingly obvious is that 'lockdown' is a total joke as a long-term solution to the issue.

Some of us could have told you that months ago.

The virus ain't going anywhere and for the vast majority of people poses no risk of 'doing anyone in'.

What's far more likely to 'do us in' will be the hole in our finances which will make running a dysfunctional health service far more challenging in the years to come.

SimonTemplar

Assetbacked wrote: »

It only spreads if it's in the community. It's not in the community so the risk is importing it. Travel is where we will undo our hard work.

"Do us in", is that the medical description they use now?

I don't believe it is this simple. The risk of undoing our hard work is people not wearing face masks and social distancing when they return from travelling from low risk countries, not the travel itself.

If a person gets COVID abroad, the impact of that back in Ireland is greatly reduced if that person follows the guidelines re masks and distancing.

normanoffside

https://twitter.com/FergalBowers/status/1281580267157815297


Mater Hospital Infectious Diseases specialist, Dr Jack Lambert said there are countries that are safer than Ireland. He said he would prefer to travel to those places on holiday, instead of travelling within Ireland. He said Ireland needs to individualise countries,based on risk.

Assetbacked

SimonTemplar wrote: »

I don't believe it is this simple. The risk of undoing our hard work is people not wearing face masks and social distancing when they return from travelling from low risk countries, not the travel itself.

If a person gets COVID abroad, the impact of that back in Ireland is greatly reduced if that person follows the guidelines re masks and distancing.

By definition, the low risk countries status as low risk means there is either a slightly greater, equal or less chance of getting covid there as there is here. So perhaps the risk of travel only comes from high risk countries and not from a green list set of countries.

SimonTemplar

Assetbacked wrote: »

By definition, the low risk countries status as low risk means there is either a slightly greater, equal or less chance of getting covid there as there is here. So perhaps the risk of travel only comes from high risk countries and not from a green list set of countries.

Yes exactly. I fully agree. But people still need to wear masks and socially distance regardless of whether they have traveled or not.

I don't understand how travel has dominated the discourse in the past few days and not the lack of adherence to the guidelines.

Travel to/from high risk countries like USA should not be occurring.

Assetbacked

SimonTemplar wrote: »

Yes exactly. I fully agree. But people still need to wear masks and socially distance regardless of whether they have traveled or not.

I don't understand how travel has dominated the discourse in the past few days and not the lack of adherence to the guidelines.

Travel to/from high risk countries like USA should not be occurring.

Masks and social distancing help curb the spread where it is spreading. However, in a situation like we are in now, with essentially no virus in the community, there is as much point encouraging mask use and social distancing as there is during flu season. This should extend to low risk countries and hence they have this green list, but with high risk countries there is a risk of ruining it all.

SimonTemplar

Assetbacked wrote: »

Masks and social distancing help curb the spread where it is spreading. However, in a situation like we are in now, with essentially no virus in the community, there is as much point encouraging mask use and social distancing as there is during flu season. This should extend to low risk countries and hence they have this green list, but with high risk countries there is a risk of ruining it all.

I agree about the high risk countries.

I disagree agree about masks and social distancing. Just because there is basically no virus in the community, doesn't mean we should let our guard down. It can take two weeks for a person to show symptoms. So what we are really saying is that there was basically no virus in the community two weeks ago.

I could be in a shop this evening with multiple infected people due to a new outbreak who are currently not showing symptoms. If they wear masks and socially distance, the risk of me catching the virus from them is reduced greatly.

Assetbacked

SimonTemplar wrote: »

I agree about the high risk countries.

I disagree agree about masks and social distancing. Just because there is basically no virus in the community, doesn't mean we should let our guard down. It can take two weeks for a person to show symptoms. So what we are really saying is that there was basically no virus in the community two weeks ago.

I could be in a shop this evening with multiple infected people due to a new outbreak who are currently not showing symptoms. If they wear masks and socially distance, the risk of me catching the virus from them is reduced greatly.

With shops in particular, there was no social distancing or masks in the shops all the way back in March and it did not result in increased transmission as a result. This has been shown via our data.

But of course the risk is lower with the mask and social distancing, but I don't think it should be as black and white as that (I mean it's not as black and white hence why masks are not compulsory and social distancing is just guidance and not law). This is why we have taken a risk-based approach to re-opening, i.e. to do it slowly in order to determine what contexts pose bigger and lower risks, implement a contact tracing app, bulking up ICU and hospital capacity etc. In addition, it is important to remember that the vast majority will barely notice symptoms if they contract the virus and it is important to not lose sight of this fact. Again, our data shows this.

ck0

Hey.
Can someone advise, for the one who is getting job seeker allowance and need to travel overseas for 2 weeks to make important things, whom to contact to get an approval or confirmation that job seeker allowance won't be cut?
According to current regulations job seekers are allowed to travel overseas only due to essential reasons, but there is no list of what is essential.
Basically, the travel will be related to coming back to a home country (while permanent resident in Ireland) to sort out various documentation questions, to repair the property etc ... Basically for that person that is essential, but from wide-public point of view, that is not essential, but that is not sun bathing or taking holidays for chilling-out outside Ireland.
We are struggling to find an answer, and Social Welfare office(s) appeared to be closed. Who must approve that? Whom to inform or get an advise and get 100% guarantee there won't be problems with social payments after that?

Please help!!!

Plumbthedepths

ck0 wrote: »

Hey.
Can someone advise, for the one who is getting job seeker allowance and need to travel overseas for 2 weeks to make important things, whom to contact to get an approval or confirmation that job seeker allowance won't be cut?
According to current regulations job seekers are allowed to travel overseas only due to essential reasons, but there is no list of what is essential.
Basically, the travel will be related to coming back to a home country (while permanent resident in Ireland) to sort out various documentation questions, to repair the property etc ... Basically for that person that is essential, but from wide-public point of view, that is not essential, but that is not sun bathing or taking holidays for chilling-out outside Ireland.
We are struggling to find an answer, and Social Welfare office(s) appeared to be closed. Who must approve that? Whom to inform or get an advise and get 100% guarantee there won't be problems with social payments after that?

Please help!!!

You need to contact your Intreo office, you will receive conflicting information on an internet forum. Go to the people with the correct information.

is_that_so

ck0 wrote: »

Hey.
Can someone advise, for the one who is getting job seeker allowance and need to travel overseas for 2 weeks to make important things, whom to contact to get an approval or confirmation that job seeker allowance won't be cut?
According to current regulations job seekers are allowed to travel overseas only due to essential reasons, but there is no list of what is essential.
Basically, the travel will be related to coming back to a home country (while permanent resident in Ireland) to sort out various documentation questions, to repair the property etc ... Basically for that person that is essential, but from wide-public point of view, that is not essential, but that is not sun bathing or taking holidays for chilling-out outside Ireland.
We are struggling to find an answer, and Social Welfare office(s) appeared to be closed. Who must approve that? Whom to inform or get an advise and get 100% guarantee there won't be problems with social payments after that?

Please help!!!

This page explains the holiday rules but as the other poster said you need to contact your local office.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/irish_social_welfare_system/claiming_a_social_welfare_payment/going_abroad_and_social_welfare_payments.html

If you have a Public Services Card then maybe you can do something online at https://services.mywelfare.ie/