Covid-19; Impact on the aviation industry

Inquitus

bombs away wrote: »

Have you evidence of this or is it just your opinion?

It's been broadly discussed in the press as being a potential minefield, see below. While personally I think the idea has merit, it would be unfair to introduce it at the current time as it would discriminate against the young and the healthy, it would be a lot fairer when the vaccine had reached saturation and was available to anyone who wanted it. It would then only discriminate against people who refused to get the vaccine which at the end of the day is their personal choice, but that choice has to have consequences.....

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/the-irish-times-view-on-vaccine-passports-rights-of-people-must-be-upheld-1.4531216

https://www.iccl.ie/news/call-for-government-to-ban-vaccine-passports-within-ireland/

https://www.rte.ie/news/primetime/2021/0408/1208696-vaccine-passports-crowds-stadiums-gaa/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/vaccine-certificate-q-a-what-is-the-status-of-government-plans-1.4530324

bombs away

Inquitus wrote: »

It's been broadly discussed in the press as being a potential minefield, see below. While personally I think the idea has merit, it would be unfair to introduce it at the current time as it would discriminate against the young and the healthy, it would be a lot fairer when the vaccine had reached saturation and was available to anyone who wanted it. It would then only discriminate against people who refused to get the vaccine which at the end of the day is their personal choice, but that choice has to have consequences.....

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/the-irish-times-view-on-vaccine-passports-rights-of-people-must-be-upheld-1.4531216

https://www.iccl.ie/news/call-for-government-to-ban-vaccine-passports-within-ireland/

https://www.rte.ie/news/primetime/2021/0408/1208696-vaccine-passports-crowds-stadiums-gaa/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/vaccine-certificate-q-a-what-is-the-status-of-government-plans-1.4530324

All of which are opinions including yours. Opinions are a lot like bumholes, everyone has one and they all pretty much stink. Maybe we should keep to discussing facts.

conor_mc

Inquitus wrote: »

It's been broadly discussed in the press as being a potential minefield, see below. While personally I think the idea has merit, it would be unfair to introduce it at the current time as it would discriminate against the young and the healthy, it would be a lot fairer when the vaccine had reached saturation and was available to anyone who wanted it. It would then only discriminate against people who refused to get the vaccine which at the end of the day is their personal choice, but that choice has to have consequences.....

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/the-irish-times-view-on-vaccine-passports-rights-of-people-must-be-upheld-1.4531216

https://www.iccl.ie/news/call-for-government-to-ban-vaccine-passports-within-ireland/

https://www.rte.ie/news/primetime/2021/0408/1208696-vaccine-passports-crowds-stadiums-gaa/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/vaccine-certificate-q-a-what-is-the-status-of-government-plans-1.4530324

Fairness doesn’t really come into it when large sectors of the domestic economy are on life support. If you can open pubs/restaurants to 50% of the populace, you can begin to restore many lost livelihoods.

Alternatively, we stop the fixation with cases and focus on hospitalisations/deaths as the metrics to guide opening up for all, vaccinated or not. We can’t really afford to wait for high levels of vaccination, nor do we particularly need to if the healthy young cohort can tolerate higher infection rates without spiking hosp/death rates.

Inquitus

bombs away wrote: »

All of which are opinions including yours. Opinions are a lot like bumholes, everyone has one and they all pretty much stink. Maybe we should keep to discussing facts.

The thing is at the end of the day, the Gov's opinion which will be shaped by your and my opinions is what will come to pass, so in this case opinions have relevance!

Inquitus

conor_mc wrote: »

Fairness doesn’t really come into it when large sectors of the domestic economy are on life support. If you can open pubs/restaurants to 50% of the populace, you can begin to restore many lost livelihoods.

This is true, but the people who spend the most money, in the hospitality sector, will be the last to get the vaccination, so as far as vaccine passports go the cause and effect are heavily linked!

conor_mc wrote: »

Alternatively, we stop the fixation with cases and focus on hospitalisations/deaths as the metrics to guide opening up for all, vaccinated or not. We can’t really afford to wait for high levels of vaccination, nor do we particularly need to if the healthy young cohort can tolerate higher infection rates without spiking hosp/death rates.

I do not disagree with what you have stated, but given the track record of Gov thinking I don't see this sort of Volte Face occurring, even if it makes sense logically to both you and I. As I stated above, I have had Covid recently, so cannot catch it again for a number of months, so I would have no issue on that basis going out to a pub, or for lunch or dinner in a restaurant, or indeed for a weekend away in a hotel, or taking a flight to Spain or wherever, I just don't see the powers that be changing their mindset to allow people to make their own rational choice!

bombs away

Inquitus wrote: »

The thing is at the end of the day, the Gov's opinion which will be shaped by your and my opinions is what will come to pass, so in this case opinions have relevance!

The government’s opinion is shaped by NPHET so consequently your and my opinions mean diddly.

bombs away

bombs away wrote: »

The government’s opinion is shaped by NPHET so consequently your and my opinions mean diddly.

I’d also add that two people who are fully vaccinated have already been released from quarantine. Obviously everything is being taken on a case by case basis but a precedence has now been set with regards to fully vaccinated inbound travellers.

Inquitus

bombs away wrote: »

I’d also add that two people who are fully vaccinated have already been released from quarantine. Obviously everything is being taken on a case by case basis but a precedence has now been set with regards to fully vaccinated inbound travellers.

Indeed but unless we set up a Verifly like system as the US has done whether you are vaccinated or not will have no real relevance in the real world, outside of specific court cases. Can we see the Government doing this?

https://www.daon.com/products/verifly

Noel Philips video on this explains how it works in an enjoyable format.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRYJLhayzcc

Also a decent number of the population, like me, have immunity from Covid-19 due to prior infection, if that could be factored into things, like it has done by the US, that would greatly increase the number of people who could be considered safe, those vaccinated + those infected within the determined window. There is growing evidence that Covid infection infers immunity for as long as 8 months or more.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/how-long-does-immunity-last-after-covid-19-what-we-know#How-natural-immunity-works-after-COVID-19-develops

davebuck

Inquitus wrote: »

The thing is at the end of the day, the Gov's opinion which will be shaped by your and my opinions is what will come to pass, so in this case opinions have relevance!

Hence why they are slowly staring to backtrack on some aspects of their MHQ in the usual leaks like the comments by Eamon Ryan etc.

I hope they get the 80% to 90% decrease in passengers from the new countries added or else they won't have enough rooms.

Look at the 2 cases today released from MHQ where is the common sense in such appeals? sadly lacking unfortunately by our government. While I see the logic and health reasons for MHQ there needs to be accountability on NPHET decisions which is sadly missing, nobody should have that power to make decisions which affects the whole of Ireland and its citizens without scrutiny.

MrMusician18

Inquitus wrote: »

You can rant all you like, I am just being a realist here, nothing is going to change in a hurry, except your blood pressure.

I think they will introduce a process of appeal that allows for hard cases to be exempt from quarantine. I don't think you'll get any politician of any stripe to say that people should be forced into a quarantine hotel when they've genuine pressing reasons for travel, like a family emergency. There may well also be an option to take a test to prove vaccination status.

For all the time it took to get this in place, it looks like the legislation was still rushed. This isn't surprising since FG have been opposed to the measure from the get go. The policy of telling the population to only make essential journeys while at the same time refusing to legislate strongly behind it reminiscent of policy of old - make rules to appease the masses/media, but fail to enforce them so they don't impact anyone negatively who chooses to ignore them.

basill

bk wrote: »

If they tried that, the government would simply order the closure of the airports.

You do know we are talking about the government here. They have full control of our airspace and licensing of airlines.

BTW The UK has also put in place similar quarantine hotels, for people travelling from 33 countries.

It is actually more strict, it is actually a full travel ban for people travelling from those 33 countries, with the quarantine hotel only for returning UK and Irish residents.

So it certainly isn't just us who are implementing these steps.

I think that's a great idea. The irony of four weeks of Coveney and co driving to Belfast or taking the ferry to UK to get to Brussels or farther afield should be enough to make them see sense. The biz jet won't be able to fill the gaps. Biden will be in their ears as he comes under pressure from the US multi nationals losing connectivity. The lack of air cargo connectivity will reverberate across the entire nation.

Inquitus

basill wrote: »

Biden will be in their ears as he comes under pressure from the US multi nationals losing connectivity.

No one is travelling from the US to Ireland with regard to US Multinationals at the moment, or vice versa. Practically all US Multi Offices in Ireland have been closed for over a year at this juncture, my own included, and everyone is working from home. This will make no difference to anyone.

Tenzor07

Inquitus wrote: »

No one is travelling from the US to Ireland with regard to US Multinationals at the moment, or vice versa. Practically all US Multi Offices in Ireland have been closed for over a year at this juncture, my own included, and everyone is working from home. This will make no difference to anyone.

Unless you know every single U.S multinational apart from your own then that's not a factual statement...

U.S Business travellers are still coming here for work which can't be done remotely, as they're Americans they'd have Double Jabs plus negative PCR's.

Tenzor07

basill wrote: »

The lack of air cargo connectivity will reverberate across the entire nation.

I guess that any Cargo pilots working for DHL or FedEx from the U.S who may need to have a 2 day layover in Ireland are excluded from MHQ?

Otherwise what happens then? Fly Cargo into the U.K and stick the cargo onto lorries/Ferries?

donkey balls

Tenzor07 wrote: »

I guess that any Cargo pilots working for DHL or FedEx from the U.S who may need to have a 2 day layover in Ireland are excluded from MHQ?

Otherwise what happens then? Fly Cargo into the U.K and stick the cargo onto lorries/Ferries?

The 3 big intergraters don't fly direct to the US they would have flights from SNN DUB to hubs in the UK and Europe, The likes of the FDX crew do 2/3 weeks stint they fly home on a commercial flight.
There is also an exclusion for flight crew and the likes of truck drivers although I received an e mail from one of the ferry operators we use regarding transit of the UK landbridge? That thw UK are implementing CV19 tests for driver's that stay more than 48hrs in the UK.
Irish transport company's are exempt due to the CTA.

cson

I reckon this is going to end up being overturned in the Supreme Court, two cases in the High Court today about it (both won by the plaintiffs).

Standard ham fisted approach by this absolute shambles of a Government.

I genuinely despair at the ****e that ye have to put up with at home right now.

marno21

Big write up in the Sindo today about how the lack of passenger flights is affecting cargo leaving the island due to the amount of cargo that was previously carried in the holds. Heading east this is a particular issue, EK’s 14 flights is now down to 4.

This is going to be a serious issue going forward if this MHQ nonsense is kept up for countries such as the US

bk

basill wrote: »

I think that's a great idea. The irony of four weeks of Coveney and co driving to Belfast or taking the ferry to UK to get to Brussels or farther afield should be enough to make them see sense. The biz jet won't be able to fill the gaps. Biden will be in their ears as he comes under pressure from the US multi nationals losing connectivity. The lack of air cargo connectivity will reverberate across the entire nation.

Come on now, you know perfectly well that Coveney and Co could simply fly by the government jet.

As for cargo they could easily ban all passenger flights while allowing cargo flights. And yes, I'm well aware that there would be a knock on effect on hold cargo on international passenger flights.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want to see any of this happen, but it blows my mind that some people here don't realise that our government has control over our boarders and airspace!!

bombs away wrote: »

The government’s opinion is shaped by NPHET so consequently your and my opinions mean diddly.

Not really, it is mostly driven by public opinion. We have seen back in October/November and again in December the government ignored NPHET's opinion, in particular in December because they were under pressure from the public for a "normal Christmas".

But the public was then shocked by what happened in January and the government is now reacting in the opposite way to that.

The approach of those who the Minister has ceded responsibility to is to depict immunized people arriving from abroad as "Typhoid Marys" harbouring the Virus within them and spreading it to the wind.
Is this really helpful?
If this were to any great extent true then Immunization against Influenza or Measles or a multitude of other viruses would be pointless.
He'll create a generation of anti-vaxxers out of half the population with this messaging.
Typhoid may be bacterial but the point remains the same.

GT89

bk wrote: »

Not really, it is mostly driven by public opinion. We have seen back in October/November and again in December the government ignored NPHET's opinion, in particular in December because they were under pressure from the public for a "normal Christmas".

But the public was then shocked by what happened in January and the government is now reacting in the opposite way to that.

That's problem if the government who are in control of RTE ordered them to stop reporting on covid cases then the public pressure would cease. People want the restrictions because they are brainwashed by RTE into fear of a flu. In places like Texas and Florida people don't want restrictions because they haven't been brainwashed by the media into fear.

bk

GT89 wrote: »

That's problem if the government who are in control of RTE ordered them to stop reporting on covid cases then the public pressure would cease. People want the restrictions because they are brainwashed by RTE into fear of a flu. In places like Texas and Florida people don't want restrictions because they haven't been brainwashed by the media into fear.

WOW!! You want government censorship of information!! :eek:

GT89

bk wrote: »

WOW!! You want government censorship of information!! :eek:

Unfortunately covid has been completely blown out of proportion by the media are they themselves following a narrative set out by nphet?

Of course theres no media censorship in Florida and Texas but yet no restrictions.

snotboogie

GT89 wrote: »

Unfortunately covid has been completely blown out of proportion by the media are they themselves following a narrative set out by nphet?

Of course theres no media censorship in Florida and Texas but yet no restrictions.

Really? No restrictions? https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/03/20/world/covid-19-coronavirus

bk

GT89 wrote: »

Unfortunately covid has been completely blown out of proportion by the media are they themselves following a narrative set out by nphet?

Of course theres no media censorship in Florida and Texas but yet no restrictions.

I can't speak for Florida, but I've colleagues living in Texas, lots of restrictions and certainly no censoring of information.

L1011

GT89 wrote: »

That's problem if the government who are in control of RTE ordered them to stop reporting on covid cases then the public pressure would cease. People want the restrictions because they are brainwashed by RTE into fear of a flu. In places like Texas and Florida people don't want restrictions because they haven't been brainwashed by the media into fear.

GT89 wrote: »

Unfortunately covid has been completely blown out of proportion by the media are they themselves following a narrative set out by nphet?

Of course theres no media censorship in Florida and Texas but yet no restrictions.

Take this type of crap to the Conspiracy Theories forum. Do not post on this thread again. Do not reply to this post.

bombs away

bk wrote: »

Not really, it is mostly driven by public opinion. We have seen back in October/November and again in December the government ignored NPHET's opinion, in particular in December because they were under pressure from the public for a "normal Christmas".

But the public was then shocked by what happened in January and the government is now reacting in the opposite way to that.

It's not driven by public opinion. As you've just mentioned, it was back in December and look what happened. It's now Nphet calling the shots. The government aren't interested in what the public think unless this MHQ backfires.

awec

bombs away wrote: »

It's not driven by public opinion. As you've just mentioned, it was back in December and look what happened. It's now Nphet calling the shots. The government aren't interested in what the public think unless this MHQ backfires.

It is.

It's just that right now, public opinion is that the government should follow whatever NPHET say after the public saw what happened in December after they didn't. If the government goes against NPHET again, and cases rise again, they would be absolutely destroyed for it in the court of public opinion. There would be no excuses to hide behind.

The public's main interest now is getting domestic leisure open again. Pubs, restaurants etc. International travel (in and out) is still further down the list of things people care about right now, unfortunately for those that work in this industry.

Inquitus

awec wrote: »

It is.

It's just that right now, public opinion is that the government should follow whatever NPHET say after the public saw what happened in December after they didn't. If the government goes against NPHET again, and cases rise again, they would be absolutely destroyed for it in the court of public opinion. There would be no excuses to hide behind.

The public's main interest now is getting domestic leisure open again. Pubs, restaurants etc. International travel (in and out) is still further down the list of things people care about right now, unfortunately for those that work in this industry.

Yep, people don't care about travel just now, they just want hospitality to open up, so people can socialise and have something to do besides going for a walk or w/e.

bombs away

awec wrote: »

It is.

It's just that right now, public opinion is that the government should follow whatever NPHET say after the public saw what happened in December after they didn't. If the government goes against NPHET again, and cases rise again, they would be absolutely destroyed for it in the court of public opinion. There would be no excuses to hide behind.

The public's main interest now is getting domestic leisure open again. Pubs, restaurants etc. International travel (in and out) is still further down the list of things people care about right now, unfortunately for those that work in this industry.

And where are you getting the idea that public opinion is in line with NPHET? The governments' decisions are based on NPHET's opinion alone, not ours. And NPHET's are based on the available scientific and health based research as they interpret it. It has nothing to do with public opinion. How is what NPHET says anything to do with public opinion? They don't give a crap what the public thinks, their only job is to save lives.

Oh, and what the public believes, and what's in their 'main interest' are two completely different things

awec

bombs away wrote: »

And where are you getting the idea that public opinion is in line with NPHET? The governments' decisions are based on NPHET's opinion alone, not ours. And NPHET's are based on the available scientific and health based research as they interpret it. It has nothing to do with public opinion. How is what NPHET says anything to do with public opinion? They don't give a crap what the public thinks, their only job is to save lives.

Oh, and what the public believes, and what's in their 'main interest' are two completely different things

I didn't say it was.

I said the government will follow NPHET because the public wants them to follow NPHET. I think the fallout from Christmas shocked people, there is no desire right now for the government to move away from their advice. The expectation is that we'll slowly open up again with a view to being sort of normal-ish by September-ish. If this doesn't happen, frustration will grow, but right now it seems like the public is on for staying the course laid out by the health officials.

And as I already said, the main objective of the public now is getting domestic leisure open and social visiting allowed. People want to visit their mates, they want to go to the pub, they want to go out for meals. I think most have written off summer 2021 as being a year for foreign holidays, to be totally honest.

It is understandably very frustrating for those who rely on tourism and travel for their income, but that is the reality. Hopefully there is a surge in travel late 2021 that continues into 2022.