Covid-19; Impact on the aviation industry

billy few mates

AlekSmart wrote: »

To my eyes there was something just a little 'off' about the 340's styling....the relationship between engine size and fuselage/wing was'nt quite right.....could be my eyes,but it just did'nt 707 it for me

I often thought the same, it just didn't look right with those tiny little engines to me.
Airbus bet the house on it thinking if anything happened to ETOPS they would corner the market as the only modern multi engine aircraft in production but they got it wrong. I remember some of them flying round with '4 engines 4 longhaul' painted on the side.
It was never a popular seller for Airbus and in fact one year Boeing actually sold more A340s than Airbus did..!

Tenger

The "4 engines 4 longhaul" was a Virgin Atlantic PR gimmick. Emphasising that they had B747s and A340s as BA was introducing B777s.


Back to the expected BA cuts, I would agree with the above;
Most airlines will see this situation as an opportunity to downsize/reduce overheads.
Regardless of Govt assistance each of them will try to "future proof" themselves post Covid-19.
Survival will be the first goal, then reduction in risk.

If BA are announcing cuts I would expect something similar from EI soon. WW previously said that IAG would be looking at the situation as a group rather than each airline acting individually.

Kcormahs

Jack1985 wrote: »

Aer Lingus will be announcing job cuts within the next two weeks. The current rolling situation is not sustanable and airlines can't rely on the governments to support them (which also can't last forever).

It's always last in first out, it'll be on a departmental basis as required.

It depends if Aer Lingus would negotiate redundancy programmes like BA. Many older crew in aer lingus on old contracts/close to retirement could have interest in this and cheaper for the company to pay newer staff much lower wages

john boye

AlekSmart wrote: »

To my eyes there was something just a little 'off' about the 340's styling....the relationship between engine size and fuselage/wing was'nt quite right.....could be my eyes,but it just did'nt 707 it for me

Get out of it, the A345 is a thing of beauty!

kevinandrew

billyhead wrote: »

Could Aer Lingus cut jobs now and if so would it be last in first out?

It's inevitable unfortunately.

No airline is getting out of this unscathed, those that survive will emerge with smaller networks, fleet and workforces. We're really still at the beginning of this, what we're seeing now is the initial shock to the industry, what comes next is a long fight for survival.

I think the next two years will be touch and go with a major restructure aimed at ensuring long term viability. A last in, first out policy would be a quick fix but a more effective savings programme would be a complete review of every aspect of the business, top to bottom. It could make 'Greenfield' look like a walk in the park.

JohnC.

These days there's more pictures of PPE flights appearing, with passenger seats being used for cargo. Was this kind of use something which happened much before now, with a passenger jet used instead of a purely cargo jet? Maybe it's normal, but the general public just wasn't exposed to it? Is there more of it happening now?

smurfjed

It’s not normal, the FAA only released instructions last week for US airlines to place cargo in the cabin.
The last time i remember it happening was for a flight collecting gas masks for gulf war 1.

Tenger

JohnC. wrote: »

These days there's more pictures of PPE flights appearing, with passenger seats being used for cargo. Was this kind of use something which happened much before now, with a passenger jet used instead of a purely cargo jet? Maybe it's normal, but the general public just wasn't exposed to it? Is there more of it happening now?

Has happened before but it was very unusual. I know EI and BA did similar before when bringing aid to Haiti after a hurricane about 10-12 years ago.
I remember BA popped a chute to speed up the manual offload process.

The current situation has overloaded the freight industry, coupled with the drop in normal commercial flights (which also carried cargo) National health services want PPE and don’t want to rely on DHL/UPS/Cargolux etc, fitting their order in when able, thus the use of home base airlines to operate these ad hoc medical supply flights.

bk

Tenger wrote: »

The current situation has overloaded the freight industry, coupled with the drop in normal commercial flights (which also carried cargo) National health services want PPE and don’t want to rely on DHL/UPS/Cargolux etc, fitting their order in when able, thus the use of home base airlines to operate these ad hoc medical supply flights.

Plus various countries have being seizing medical supplies and PPE destined for other countries that past through their hubs.

Thus direct flights to China eliminate that risk.

BTW I think JohnC. was also asking is it common for cargo to be transported in the holds of passenger aircraft. Yes, very common and something most people don't know. That there is likely cargo in the hold below their feet on many flights.

HTCOne

billy few mates wrote: »

Interestingly enough not a single A340 was sold to an American carrier either, like the A380, this was another major factor in its eventual demise. You have to crack the American market for an airliner to be considered a success.

I believe Northwest had made an order, but had to cancel it due financial difficulties and bought second hand DC-10-30s instead.

Inquitus

HTCOne wrote: »

I believe Northwest had made an order, but had to cancel it due financial difficulties and bought second hand DC-10-30s instead.

The A340 was released at very unfortunate timing, ETOPS was introduced around the same time, and any plane with 4 engines became instantly less attractive esp for TATL routes.

PinOnTheRight

Tenger wrote: »

The current situation has overloaded the freight industry, coupled with the drop in normal commercial flights (which also carried cargo) National health services want PPE and don’t want to rely on DHL/UPS/Cargolux etc, fitting their order in when able, thus the use of home base airlines to operate these ad hoc medical supply flights.

There has been little change in the number of dedicated cargo flights in Europe, it’s generally been within 1% when compared with the same period last year as most outfits are generally operating at ‘max’ hence the update required by passenger aircraft.

In terms of aircraft movements during the week, Leipzig is currently the busiest airport in Europe given DHL’s logistic hub there, and DHL is the busiest operator in Europe with around 260 flights a day.

Eamonn Brennan, Director General of EUrocontrol is worth a follow on Twitter (@eurcontrolDG) for some daily info.

conor05

billyhead wrote: »

Could Aer Lingus cut jobs now and if so would it be last in first out?

BA led the way, Aer Lingus will roll out voluntary redundancies across all departments by the end of next week I would imagine.

Covid-19 will have a devastating impact on the airline industry

California Dreamer

Minor rant.

Aer Lingus operate an aircraft designed for long haul ops to another international airport with 2 crews who can utilise crew rest/business class seating and I am assuming are well catered to China to pick up some PPE and the first crews are hailed heroes and are on the late late show.

Ryanair, a short haul low cost airline operate a high density 737 with no crew rest, no business class for 7+ hours with crews that are more used to short flights, turn it around and fly back via Seville and there is hardly a peep out of social media let alone the press.

No axe to grind, just doesnt seem very fair plus we got no background to the flight, the need for it and one person suggested it was for the ESB.

Irish Steve

California Dreamer wrote: »

just doesnt seem very fair plus we got no background to the flight,

I suspect after the howls of rage that followed another recent Ryanair charter, everyone is keeping their heads down to avoid more aggravations.



Some of the Ryanair flight crew will have experience at long flights, not too long ago, they were bringing in new 800's direct from Seattle to Dublin, non stop, and while most of their routes are short haul, they do operate some longer routes out of Dublin.

troyzer

https://www.euronews.com/2020/04/29/a-dozen-eu-states-will-today-call-on-brussels-to-suspend-law-granting-refunds-for-cancelle?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1588159896

Too early to tell if they'll actually get it.

Mc Love

Jack1985 wrote: »

Aer Lingus will be announcing job cuts within the next two weeks. The current rolling situation is not sustanable and airlines can't rely on the governments to support them (which also can't last forever).

It's always last in first out, it'll be on a departmental basis as required.

God I hope not too much, OH is Cabin Crew in EI based out of SNN but was in DUB for a good few years before this.

AlekSmart

Irish Steve wrote: »

I suspect after the howls of rage that followed another recent Ryanair charter, everyone is keeping their heads down to avoid more aggravations.

Some of the Ryanair flight crew will have experience at long flights, not too long ago, they were bringing in new 800's direct from Seattle to Dublin, non stop, and while most of their routes are short haul, they do operate some longer routes out of Dublin.

I'm not an airline pilot,but from my passing knowledge of the sector,I know the crews will have been thoroughly Professional about the flights,irrespective of the Operator.

These flights will have been planned and executed to the prevailing standards and conditions in force,and conforming to these.

Avation,both in engineering and operations depends on a By-The-Book approach to it's duties and procedures...otherwise bad things will happen.

I would be congratulating the Flight Crews in question on that maintenance of professionalism,rather than on the 'Heroism' which sectors of the media now consider a prerequisite to all CV19 coverage.

Real heroism in my view,is seen in those Medical Staff using some of the Chinese sourced PPE,some of which is at very least of questionable quality,if not downright unfit for purpose.

Without doubt,post CV19,the quality vs cost issue,along with sourcing are going to be the hot potato's across many sectors,including perhaps Aviation ?

Kcormahs

Talks about Aer Lingus being Re-nationalised. This could save many staff their jobs. Obviously maybe a few would still have to go but compared to what IAG plan to cut at Aer Lingus and whats on the cards...

https://kfmradio.com/news/29042020-1203/listen-murphy-calls-re-nationalisation-aer-lingus

Jamie2k9

Kcormahs wrote: »

Talks about Aer Lingus being Re-nationalised. This could save many staff their jobs. Obviously maybe a few would still have to go but compared to what IAG plan to cut at Aer Lingus and whats on the cards...

https://kfmradio.com/news/29042020-1203/listen-murphy-calls-re-nationalisation-aer-lingus

Talks is an overstatement, nor will it save jobs.

Its just typical PBP crowd!

donkey balls

California Dreamer wrote: »

Minor rant.

Aer Lingus operate an aircraft designed for long haul ops to another international airport with 2 crews who can utilise crew rest/business class seating and I am assuming are well catered to China to pick up some PPE and the first crews are hailed heroes and are on the late late show.

Ryanair, a short haul low cost airline operate a high density 737 with no crew rest, no business class for 7+ hours with crews that are more used to short flights, turn it around and fly back via Seville and there is hardly a peep out of social media let alone the press.

No axe to grind, just doesnt seem very fair plus we got no background to the flight, the need for it and one person suggested it was for the ESB.

My source works for the airline and it was ESBI the international arm of the ESB, They build maintain and operate power stations throughout the world.
Not sure how many of them there was as if a Netjets flight would have sufficed.
As for the flight not getting that much attention could it be classed as a repatriation flight or the fact no one posted on social media about it?

Kcormahs

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Talks is an overstatement, nor will it save jobs.

Its just typical PBP crowd!

for the sake of Aer Lingus and its staff, I hope you are wrong

Cookiemunster

Kcormahs wrote: »

Talks about Aer Lingus being Re-nationalised. This could save many staff their jobs. Obviously maybe a few would still have to go but compared to what IAG plan to cut at Aer Lingus and whats on the cards...

https://kfmradio.com/news/29042020-1203/listen-murphy-calls-re-nationalisation-aer-lingus

More unrealistic hard left guff from Murphy. How do you legally renationalise an arm of a foreign company? We, thankfully, don't live in Venezuela.

john boye

Kcormahs wrote: »

Talks about Aer Lingus being Re-nationalised. This could save many staff their jobs. Obviously maybe a few would still have to go but compared to what IAG plan to cut at Aer Lingus and whats on the cards...

https://kfmradio.com/news/29042020-1203/listen-murphy-calls-re-nationalisation-aer-lingus

I wouldn't call that "talks". That's giving anything he says a bit of credit, sure he probably wanted it re-nationalised long before covid.

troyzer

Kcormahs wrote: »

Talks about Aer Lingus being Re-nationalised. This could save many staff their jobs. Obviously maybe a few would still have to go but compared to what IAG plan to cut at Aer Lingus and whats on the cards...

https://kfmradio.com/news/29042020-1203/listen-murphy-calls-re-nationalisation-aer-lingus

"Talks" being Paul Murphy talking ****e on the radio.

So by his logic, the state subsidising salaries means we can start thinking about nationalisation?

Why not nationalise Microsoft? Or Emirates?

mikel97

Why nationalise a Spanish company? FFS

Locker10a

mikel97 wrote: »

Why nationalise a Spanish company? FFS

Well, it wouldn’t be if it was nationalised.

Anyway this is all just empty chat, there are other ways the government can support home based airlines before this step

Kcormahs

troyzer wrote: »

"Talks" being Paul Murphy talking ****e on the radio.

So by his logic, the state subsidising salaries means we can start thinking about nationalisation?

Why not nationalise Microsoft? Or Emirates?

Aer Lingus was formed by the Irish gov different from those two companies you just mentioned.
it brings only benefits to the economy not only tourism and cargo but all the services and connections they have with the country. So what, under your view would you rather Aer Lingus go down the sink, staff loosing jobs, creating a huge future threat to tourism and traveling (also impacting jobs in these sectors). why is there people here with such hate against Aer Lingus. I cant understand really. we live in an Island we need connections

Cookiemunster

Kcormahs wrote: »

Aer Lingus was formed by the Irish gov different from those two companies you just mentioned.
it brings only benefits to the economy not only tourism and cargo but all the services and connections they have with the country. So what, under your view would you rather Aer Lingus go down the sink, staff loosing jobs, creating a huge future threat to tourism and traveling (also impacting jobs in these sectors). why is there people here with such hate against Aer Lingus. I cant understand really. we live in an Island we need connections

Aer Lingus is an arm of a Spanish/UK company. Ireland cannot legally nationalise part a foreign company. As I said earlier this is not Venezuela.

I have no idea why you think anyone hates Aer Lingus. We, unlike Paul Murohy, live in the real world where we know this is pie in the sky nonsense.

john boye

Kcormahs wrote: »

Aer Lingus was formed by the Irish gov different from those two companies you just mentioned.
it brings only benefits to the economy not only tourism and cargo but all the services and connections they have with the country. So what, under your view would you rather Aer Lingus go down the sink, staff loosing jobs, creating a huge future threat to tourism and traveling (also impacting jobs in these sectors). why is there people here with such hate against Aer Lingus. I cant understand really. we live in an Island we need connections

How can you conclude, on this forum of all places (where rightly or wrongly there is a very pro Aer Lingus bent and great interest in the company), that people hate Aer Lingus? That is not why people would be against this at all. Quite the opposite in fact.