Covid-19; Impact on the aviation industry

Tenger

Foggy43 wrote: »

Just in case this maybe of interest to anyone here, Heathrow Terminal 4 closes tonight. It is temporary but no one has any idea for how long. So it is just Terminal's 2 and 5 operating now.

Somber moment. I was in LHR about 6-8 weeks ago (mid March) It was shocking to see T4 empty, With parked BA and VS aircraft beside it.


An EI mate was operating into of JFK a few days ago. (2nd crew then operate back) He sent me a pic via Whatsapp that he took on the climb out. Empty.
I could make out 2 aircraft each on T4 and T5, 3 widebodies onstand on T1, couldnt make out T7.
Taxiways were empty and you could see maybe 2 dozen aircraft remotely parked.

Spanish Eyes

Look, I'm not a pilot or crew or anything, so hope you don't mind me posting here. Am SLF!

Anyway very sorry about the decimation airlines are suffering now, but it is not surprising, it is probably how the virus has spread, through international travel with few if any checks in arrival countries.

Was just thinking about the idea of everyone wearing masks when travelling by air. Yes I am sure it will help, but I see a couple of issues, at check in the staff will need to see your face, down comes the mask, and back on it goes, same at the departure gate, up and down goes the mask. Same on board (that is if ANYTHING is sold in the aisles anymore), same in destination country and so on.

Social distancing will add at least an hour onto the traipse through the airport, and there will be no quick boarding anymore either. What about those stands that require everyone to pile on a bus to get to the apron? Nah, there will be delays there too. It is hard to see a positive, but I am hopeful that it will all work out eventually somehow.

PommieBast

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Social distancing will add at least an hour onto the traipse through the airport, and there will be no quick boarding anymore either. What about those stands that require everyone to pile on a bus to get to the apron? Nah, there will be delays there too. It is hard to see a positive, but I am hopeful that it will all work out eventually somehow.

Social distancing should be fine for those flying long-haul in a business class that has herringbone seating, but for short-haul economy the trend of squeeze-squeeze-squeeze has come home to roost. Even if C19 vanishes without trace a rethink is needed.

smurfjed

Considering the airflow within an aircraft cabin, do you really think that there is any benefit in keeping seats empty?

BZ

Miami Air have ceased operations as of last night.

Masala

Will the suggestions of taking passenger temperature need to be put through legislation??? Otherwise passengers could refuse .... claiming all sort of infringement of their rights.

Airlines will also need to get a Tick Box at booking to advise of same.

A new type of travel insurance will be needed for passengers to cover getting pulled up on a temperature and refused travel (whether it be a Covid or ordinary cold symptom)

Also..... who is going to be administering this temperature test...?.. airline staff, airport staff..... what medical training have they got to make decisions etc.

smurfjed

Otherwise passengers could refuse

They could refuse and the airline could refuse to carry them as it would become a condition of carriage.

When I’m flying, i get to do 4-5 temperature checks in the day, they range over 3 degrees, we have even had someone tested who was 39.5C after walking around an aircraft for 20 minutes. So these temperature checks are an indication but they aren’t a 100% proven method of identification.

BTW, my checks are done with a mouth thermometer, handheld pointed at forehead thermometer and a thermal camera.

bk

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Was just thinking about the idea of everyone wearing masks when travelling by air. Yes I am sure it will help, but I see a couple of issues, at check in the staff will need to see your face, down comes the mask, and back on it goes, same at the departure gate, up and down goes the mask. Same on board (that is if ANYTHING is sold in the aisles anymore), same in destination country and so on.

All the staff who interact with the public, security, gate check, etc. will probably need to wear respirator masks and those plexiglass shields over their heads like you see medical staff wear. That would reduce the issue of a passenger needing to pull down a mask to show their face.

Far from ideal, but this is the new reality we face until it burns itself out or a vaccine is widespread.

basill

The only tangible benefit that I can see from all of the measures that have been discussed over the past few months is taking a test and having it electronically tagged in your passport. Masks, gloves hand sanitiser.....it all makes perfectly reasonable sense if you presuppose that the kit is firstly fit for purpose and secondly is used as intended. I would suggest that you spend some time googling how a surgeon goes about sanitising and gowning up and the reverse at the completion of an operation. Does the surgeon pull out his phone to check his shopping list? Use a laptop on an aircraft? Take his glasses on and off? Eat his lunch? Scratch his nose?

Approval has already been made for fast track tests (Roche has one that is less than 18mins) that can show that you have had covid (not that you have it at the time of testing). That is the way forward until a vaccine is available.

All the rest is optics folks.

trellheim

so what are you going to do if you leave Ireland for a month , catch Covid at the other end and try and return home ? Not as simple as it looks also cant imagine you'd get travel insurance, so where are you going to stay ?

Masala

bk wrote: »

All the staff who interact with the public, security, gate check, etc. will probably need to wear respirator masks and those plexiglass shields over their heads like you see medical staff wear. That would reduce the issue of a passenger needing to pull down a mask to show their face.

Far from ideal, but this is the new reality we face until it burns itself out or a vaccine is widespread.

Ya..... passport checks will have to relaxed.

The problem with masks is the tendency it makes people touch their face and that’s when an€ where the virus spreads. Raising and lowering a mask by moving your hands to to face is riskier than wearing no mask.

donkey balls

I'm a volunteer for one of the statuary emergency bodies and we have been tasked with dealing with Covid 19, We wear masks goggles etc and they are not comfortable to wear.
Even in my job were we are dealing with possibly Covud 19 patients the lads have to wear full PPE gear while cleaning the equipment.
While wearing a mask and goggles they steam up and it is really uncomfortable.

bk

basill wrote: »

The only tangible benefit that I can see from all of the measures that have been discussed over the past few months is taking a test and having it electronically tagged in your passport. Masks, gloves hand sanitiser.....it all makes perfectly reasonable sense if you presuppose that the kit is firstly fit for purpose and secondly is used as intended. I would suggest that you spend some time googling how a surgeon goes about sanitising and gowning up and the reverse at the completion of an operation. Does the surgeon pull out his phone to check his shopping list? Use a laptop on an aircraft? Take his glasses on and off? Eat his lunch? Scratch his nose?

Approval has already been made for fast track tests (Roche has one that is less than 18mins) that can show that you have had covid (not that you have it at the time of testing). That is the way forward until a vaccine is available.

All the rest is optics folks.

Testing is relatively useless in this regard.

So you take a test a few days before flying. It comes back negative, stamped on your passport. On the Taxi on the way to the airport, you pick up the virus from the taxi driver and now you spread it to people on the plane. How does that help?

Testing like this is pure optics. There is no logic to it at this point.

Would could work is government enforced 14 day quarantine upon arrival. As it you are locked down in a hotel and monitored by health officials. Non of this self quarantine nonsense. You could then opt to pay for a PCR test to prove you don't have it and get out of quarantine early. Some countries are doing this.

There is actually a massive amount of growing evidence that widespread mask wearing will greatly reduce the spread of the disease.

Your comments suggest that you don't understand the point of mask wearing. It isn't to stop you from getting the disease, it is too stop you from spreading it to others if you have the disease.

And of course if everyone wears masks, then it will be harder for you to get it.

Your points about people touching masks or their phone is irrelevant. If they already have the disease, then it won't matter. If they don't and everyone else is wearing masks too, then the virus can't get on their hands or phone anyway.

Unfortunately a lot of disinformation and confusion about mask wearing was spread a month ago and much of it has now been found to be wrong.

Plumbthedepths

Ryanair have a seat sale for 2021. They seem positive for the future.

Inquitus

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Ryanair have a seat sale for 2021. They seem positive for the future.

Great way to bolster your cashflow!

Sheep Shagger

Inquitus wrote: »

Great way to bolster your cashflow!

They had one for October and November a while back too, that may have been a bit too optimistic!

Masala

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2020/0508/1137343-ryanair-criticises-aircraft-parking-charges-in-dublin/

Ryanair ...have they no shame. Every one else expected to give for FREE and and they with €4bn in the bank. They lucky to find space in DUB..... am sure DAA got plenty of calls from lessors and airlines looking for parking and could have gotten a lot more than €180 a night.

Can’t wait to see how they gonna screw the airports, handling agents, catering supplier etc when they rev up. Not to mention staff.

Trampas

Masala wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2020/0508/1137343-ryanair-criticises-aircraft-parking-charges-in-dublin/

Ryanair ...have they no shame. Every one else expected to give for FREE and and they with €4bn in the bank. They lucky to find space in DUB..... am sure DAA got plenty of calls from lessors and airlines looking for parking and could have gotten a lot more than €180 a night.

Can’t wait to see how they gonna screw the airports, handling agents, catering supplier etc when they rev up. Not to mention staff.

They’re a business who want to run as cheap as possible especially when no income coming in. No harm in that. Ethical or morally is a different thing

smurfjed

BZ wrote: »

Miami Air have ceased operations as of last night.

It sounds like they were seeking a buyer before this happened and failed. They were in business for 29 years.

smurfjed

Testing like this is pure optics. There is no logic to it at this point.

Tomorrow night i shall do my seventh (07th) nasal and throat test due to company requirements. No seems willing to accept that the test is valid for about one minute until i touch something or the guy in the queue behind me sneezes into my face.

I have both N95 masks and surgical masks, the N95 are hard to wear all day especially in hot weather.

EchoIndia

Masala wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2020/0508/1137343-ryanair-criticises-aircraft-parking-charges-in-dublin/

Ryanair ...have they no shame. Every one else expected to give for FREE and and they with €4bn in the bank. They lucky to find space in DUB..... am sure DAA got plenty of calls from lessors and airlines looking for parking and could have gotten a lot more than €180 a night.

Can’t wait to see how they gonna screw the airports, handling agents, catering supplier etc when they rev up. Not to mention staff.

If there are airports providing free parking for aircraft they could always use those too. :rolleyes:

Tenger

Saw it posted elsewhere that the DAA released the figures for the parking charges.
Massive discount on the normal charge apparently.

EchoIndia

Tenger wrote: »

Saw it posted elsewhere that the DAA released the figures for the parking charges.
Massive discount on the normal charge apparently.

Something like a 93% reduction. A charge of €180 a day for a multi-million asset that also has to be protected by the airport is not a lot for a company with Ryanair's resources. One of those statements that's designed to appeal to people who don't know any better, I suspect.

smurfjed

Money talks.....
Vienna Airport offering COVID testing to passengers in order for them to avoid the 14 day quarantine.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-austria-airport-idUSKBN22F0IO

basill

bk wrote: »

Testing is relatively useless in this regard.

So you take a test a few days before flying. It comes back negative, stamped on your passport. On the Taxi on the way to the airport, you pick up the virus from the taxi driver and now you spread it to people on the plane. How does that help?

Testing like this is pure optics. There is no logic to it at this point.

Would could work is government enforced 14 day quarantine upon arrival. As it you are locked down in a hotel and monitored by health officials. Non of this self quarantine nonsense. You could then opt to pay for a PCR test to prove you don't have it and get out of quarantine early. Some countries are doing this.

There is actually a massive amount of growing evidence that widespread mask wearing will greatly reduce the spread of the disease.

Your comments suggest that you don't understand the point of mask wearing. It isn't to stop you from getting the disease, it is too stop you from spreading it to others if you have the disease.

And of course if everyone wears masks, then it will be harder for you to get it.

Your points about people touching masks or their phone is irrelevant. If they already have the disease, then it won't matter. If they don't and everyone else is wearing masks too, then the virus can't get on their hands or phone anyway.

Unfortunately a lot of disinformation and confusion about mask wearing was spread a month ago and much of it has now been found to be wrong.

The test you take is to show that you have already had covid. Go Google. A number of pharmas already have fast track approval and the blood sample can be inserted into their existing testing machines. Results are less than 20mins. Its up to the medics to work out if you can catch the virus again. I am not talking about the mickey mouse tests, or thermo waste of time stuff.

bk

basill wrote: »

The test you take is to show that you have already had covid. Go Google. A number of pharmas already have fast track approval and the blood sample can be inserted into their existing testing machines. Results are less than 20mins. Its up to the medics to work out if you can catch the virus again. I am not talking about the mickey mouse tests, or thermo waste of time stuff.

I'm well aware of the tests you are talking about and they are pretty useless in this regard.

What you are talking about are antibody tests. The problem with antibody tests is that they only tell you if the person previously had it. But if you it comes back negative, all that means is that you don't have antibodies.

This means a negative result can show one of two things:
1) The person has yet to be exposed to the disease and are perfectly healthy.
2) They currently have the disease and are highly infectious. It takes one to two weeks after you get COVID19 to create antibodies. During that period you are highly infectious.

So how exactly is this useful to airlines to decide on who can board an aircraft?

Are you suggesting that airlines will only allow people who previously had the disease to board?! Well that wouldn't work well for airlines, since it is believed that most people haven't actually gotten the disease yet, so that would preclude most people from flying, not good for business. Specially when the majority of people who test negative are probably perfectly healthy.

This sort of testing basically makes zero sense for airlines and it would be the worst example of "health security theatre".

And of course this all ignores the fact that they currently aren't certain that antibodies actually give you immunity from getting it again, nor how long the antibodies will last.

Now more interestingly, two days ago the first Antigen test was approved by the FDA. It is a blood test that can tell you in about 20 minutes if you currently have the disease or not. The down side of it is that it has a high false negative rate. It only works correctly 85% of the time. Which means, someone could test negative, be allowed on the plane, sitting next to you, but actually highly infectious.

The FDA says any negative Antigen tests, need to be double checked with PCR test. So it is more a quick and handy tool for Doctors, then something airliens could use.

I don't want to even think about what the legal ramifications would be if the airlines are testing like this and the test is wrong and others get infected and die!

BTW don't get me wrong, all these tests, PCR, Antibody and Anitgen tests are very useful for Doctors and public health officials trying to track this disease, but it is only of very limited use by private companies.

Tenger

Ryanair announce a resumption of 40% of their operation from July 1st.
-All crew and pax to wear masks.
-No queuing for the loo.
-Prepackaged items only for sale.
-Health info and travel history to be provided before check-in.
-No “middle seat empty” policy.

https://www.thejournal.ie/ryanair-returning-from-july-5096784-May2020/


Sounds reasonable to me.
United Airlines have “middle seat empty” as an aim rather than a rule. Only possible once load factor is under 66%.

trellheim

Sounds reasonable to me.
United Airlines have “middle seat empty” as an aim rather than a rule. Only possible once load factor is under 66%.
Tenger is online now Report Post

FR economics dont work with that kind of load factor ( in fairness EI have set the example of not giving a toss about this )

Nijmegen

One of two things is going to happen I suspect:

(i) We get scientific proof that you know what, people wedged into airplanes is fine.

(ii) The economic model is no longer fit for the world we live in. Bye bye €9.99 flights.

This middle ground of wedging everyone in and saying "But the science is inconclusive" I think won't last long, ala South Korean nightclubs. I think in nations with effective testing and contact tracing that we didn't have 3 months ago you'll quickly get the finger pointed back to airlines if (i) is not true and you'll also suppress what little demand there is if people don't think it's safe.

Irish Steve

All sounds wonderful in theory, the practise however may be somewhat different, the unanswered question for me is how the airlines and airports are going to manage the rugby scrum at the gate before boarding, and will they still be allowed to herd everyone into a staircase after passport checks etc before boarding? There is no way that either of these situations are going to provide social separation.

Then there are the questions about 25 minute turn rounds, which mean zero cabin sanitisation between flights, with some pressure points like handrails on airstairs, and seat belt fasteners, and the latches on the overhead bins. Maybe it will be a case of having to have gloves as well as masks to provide some protection, but that has it's own issues, depending on the length of the flight, in that if the mask needs adjustment of any sort, the gloves may be more of a liability than a help.