Covid-19; Impact on the aviation industry

smurfjed

For the type I fly, we don’t have recycled air or filters, the air is dumped basically every 150 seconds as its replaced by external air that is heated before going through an air cycle machine for mixing and cooling, but the airflow pattern is aft to forward so regardless of the number of people onboard, if someone is sick in the aft toilet, that air will flow through the whole cabin before reaching the outflow values at the front.

WishUWereHere

Gekko wrote: »

Dying for a holiday an unfortunate choice of words there

‪https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/scientists-think-they-know-ways-to-combat-viruses-on-airplanes-theyre-too-late-for-this-pandemic/2020/04/20/83279318-76ab-11ea-87da-77a8136c1a6d_story.html‬

This suggests the air may be safer on an Airbus than a Boeing

So another reason to avoid Ryanair

Also less likely to get any customer service if anything goes wrong...admittedly not likely much better with any other airline

Thanks OP, the link you provided is very interesting.

I came across the following on the page ( about 1/2 way down ):

Boeing didn’t sell a single plane in April

For the second month this year, Boeing failed to sell a single commercial airplane in April.

Data posted to the company’s website on Tuesday show that orders for 108 new planes were canceled over the past month as airlines continued to cancel flights and cut costs. Contracts for 101 additional planes were reclassified and downgraded, indicating that Boeing no longer considers them to be firm orders.

With much of their existing fleet grounded for the conceivable future, airlines like Southwest have been deferring orders for dozens of new jets. In a Tuesday interview on NBC’s “Today” show, Boeing CEO David Calhoun said that the airline industry was witnessing an “apocalyptic” moment. He predicted that at least one major U.S. carrier will go out of business this year.

Before the global pandemic took hold, Boeing had already been plagued with financial woes stemming from the grounding of the 737 Max. But the number of orders for new planes that have been canceled this year — more than 300 in told — outstrips the total number of cancellations that took place last year in the wake of the 737 Max fiasco, CNN Business reported.

Boeing received orders for 49 planes between February and March, but none in January, the company’s website shows. By contrast, the company sold 76 new aircraft in April 2018, before aviation authorities raised concerns about the 737 Max.

By Antonia Farzan


Wonder who the 'major carrier' will be

WishUWereHere

smurfjed wrote: »

For the type I fly, we don’t have recycled air or filters, the air is dumped basically every 150 seconds as its replaced by external air that is heated before going through an air cycle machine for mixing and cooling, but the airflow pattern is aft to forward so regardless of the number of people onboard, if someone is sick in the aft toilet, that air will flow through the whole cabin before reaching the outflow values at the front.

Speaking purely as an amateur lover of all things Airlines Commercial, can I just say a BIG 'Go Raibh Mhíle Mhaith Agat' to all in the 'trade' for revealing very interesting information ( well, all this is to me anyhow). Until CV 19 rocked up, I would NEVER in my wildest dreams have ever put a 2nd thought to the air we breath up in the sky.

Thanks again. AND STAY SAFE!

WishUWereHere

AMKC wrote: »

I seen that very plane too I am sure. One lone plane flying across he Sky. Where I I used to see army and Rescue helicopters flying over quite low as well as a good few planes. But know you would be lucky to see one a week.
Also that's not smoke its the planes contrail that you are seeing. If it was smoke that would be bad.

Contrail - new one to me. Thanks for the heads up OP. I do apologise for not thanking You before.

bk

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/scientists-think-they-know-ways-to-combat-viruses-on-airplanes-theyre-too-late-for-this-pandemic/2020/04/20/83279318-76ab-11ea-87da-77a8136c1a6d_story.html‬

Yikes that article looks extremely worrying for the airline industry.

In particular the story of a person infected with SARS on a 737, who infected 22 others, including people up to 7 rows away!

Looks like the air-filtration systems aren't effective enough at all to deal with this. The simulation of what a cough does is pretty horrifying.

stephenjmcd

The European Commission is expected to announce that airlines will not have to leave the middle seats empty but the wearing of masks onboard and in airports should be required as travel across the bloc restarts gradually.

Masala

stephenjmcd wrote: »

The European Commission is expected to announce that airlines will not have to leave the middle seats empty but the wearing of masks onboard and in airports should be required as travel across the bloc restarts gradually.

Thanks Stephen... any links??

Sheep Shagger

Masala wrote: »

Thanks Stephen... any links??

EU quash vouchers instead of cash refunds.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/airlines-must-refund-passengers-for-cancelled-flights-eu-says-1.4252365?mode=amp

WishUWereHere

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

EU quash vouchers instead of cash refunds.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/airlines-must-refund-passengers-for-cancelled-flights-eu-says-1.4252365?mode=amp

Interesting article, thanks OP.

Specially found this interesting:


“We expect the member state to correct it immediately, otherwise the next step will be taken,” Ms Vestager said.

Anyone know just what the 'next step' is?

BZ

Another example of the reduced demand Qatar Airways have said they are grounding their A380s until the second half of 2021 and even then they may never return depending on demand.

Blut2

Masala wrote: »

Thanks Stephen... any links??

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-eu-airlines/airlines-will-not-need-to-spare-middle-seat-to-restart-travel-eu-idUSKBN22P14I

It makes sense. Even with a middle seat empty there would still be multiple people within your 2m space sitting behind/ahead of you, and even the extra one seat over wouldn't even be 1m away. Not to mention the lack of social distancing at boarding, security etc.

Enforcing it would only really be security theatre. And would likely make a lot of routes completely non-viable.

stephenjmcd

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

EU quash vouchers instead of cash refunds.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/airlines-must-refund-passengers-for-cancelled-flights-eu-says-1.4252365?mode=amp

Yeah but nobody is really forcing them to accept vouchers though are they ? Like Ryanair you can opt for the cash it'll just take longer.

I've vouchers for Austrian airlines, Ryanair and wizz air. Total for all around €300. Austrain are giving me an extra €50 on top of the €150 fare I'd paid to use credit. Happy to take the voucher instead of the cash.

I get that everyones personal circumstances are different but most are offering cash just it'll take much longer given the volume of refunds

Sheep Shagger

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Yeah but nobody is really forcing them to accept vouchers though are they ? Like Ryanair you can opt for the cash it'll just take longer.

I've vouchers for Austrian airlines, Ryanair and wizz air. Total for all around €300. Austrain are giving me an extra €50 on top of the €150 fare I'd paid to use credit. Happy to take the voucher instead of the cash.

I get that everyones personal circumstances are different but most are offering cash just it'll take much longer given the volume of refunds

Think the Shane Ross idea was that vouchers would become the only refund option.

Irish Steve

bk wrote: »

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/scientists-think-they-know-ways-to-combat-viruses-on-airplanes-theyre-too-late-for-this-pandemic/2020/04/20/83279318-76ab-11ea-87da-77a8136c1a6d_story.html‬

Yikes that article looks extremely worrying for the airline industry.

In particular the story of a person infected with SARS on a 737, who infected 22 others, including people up to 7 rows away!

Looks like the air-filtration systems aren't effective enough at all to deal with this. The simulation of what a cough does is pretty horrifying.

The filtration system does nothing for the air that's coming in from outside, they only filter air that's already been in the cabin before it goes back into the heating or cooling system to be recirculated back into the cabin, so someone that gets on to the aircraft with Covid can spread the virus into the cabin air, where it will eventually be caught as the air is recirculated or discharged through the outflow control valves. The filters are to ensure that the heating and cooling sections are not contaminated by anything from the cabin, but what's in the cabin can remain there for a while, depending on the degree of recirculation that's being employed, and I don't know if the crew can influence that very much.

stephenjmcd

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Think the Shane Ross idea was that vouchers would become the only refund option.

Ah ok, yeah people should have the choice 100%, I intend on travelling again so was happy to take the vouchers with a little extra from some airlines.

conor05

Any update on the EI job cuts?
Union meeting was held yesterday I believe but still doesn’t seem to be any indication of the position.

Staff left in the dark regarding voluntary redundancies, who is getting the cut etc.

Fairly poor from Aer Lingus so far, BA seemed to handle their announcement a lot better.

LXFlyer

conor05 wrote: »

Any update on the EI job cuts?
Union meeting was held yesterday I believe but still doesn’t seem to be any indication of the position.

Staff left in the dark regarding voluntary redundancies, who is getting the cut etc.

Fairly poor from Aer Lingus so far, BA seemed to handle their announcement a lot better.

There is a statutory process to go through in Ireland which is different from the UK.

The staff rightly will be the first to know and consulted with before anyone else hears about it. If they haven’t heard yet, then the plan has not been finalised.

IngazZagni

conor05 wrote: »

Any update on the EI job cuts?
Union meeting was held yesterday I believe but still doesn’t seem to be any indication of the position.

Staff left in the dark regarding voluntary redundancies, who is getting the cut etc.

Fairly poor from Aer Lingus so far, BA seemed to handle their announcement a lot better.

What have BA done differently? They basically said that up to 12,000 jobs will go but have not said who or how. That will be part of the consultation. Surely this will have to undergo consultation for Aer Lingus as well? Why do you want a rushed decision on job cuts?

Jack1985

conor05 wrote: »

BA seemed to handle their announcement a lot better.

What by announcing 12,000 job cuts!?

bk

Irish Steve wrote: »

The filtration system does nothing for the air that's coming in from outside, they only filter air that's already been in the cabin before it goes back into the heating or cooling system to be recirculated back into the cabin, so someone that gets on to the aircraft with Covid can spread the virus into the cabin air, where it will eventually be caught as the air is recirculated or discharged through the outflow control valves. The filters are to ensure that the heating and cooling sections are not contaminated by anything from the cabin, but what's in the cabin can remain there for a while, depending on the degree of recirculation that's being employed, and I don't know if the crew can influence that very much.

Yes the research and simulation shown in that article show that a cough/sneeze is much more powerful then the airflow of the filtration system and that particles spread out for a few meters in all directions in the air, before then being pushed down on the people below. Ironically it looks like the air coming in from above actually helps push the water droplets down on the people below.

The research counter intuitively actually showed (at least for SARS) that a system where the air comes in below your feet and then pushes up to vent out in the ceiling would actually be better and would reduce the spread (but not eliminate it completely).

The research into human safe near-UV lights is very interesting. It won't help immediately, but could be a big help in future.

LXFlyer

conor05 wrote: »

Any update on the EI job cuts?
Union meeting was held yesterday I believe but still doesn’t seem to be any indication of the position.

Staff left in the dark regarding voluntary redundancies, who is getting the cut etc.

Fairly poor from Aer Lingus so far, BA seemed to handle their announcement a lot better.

This post from another thread gives an insight into the differences between the UK and Irish law on announcing redundancies.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113416287&postcount=51

circular flexing

Air Canada has sent a memo to staff indicating that they are looking for 19000 to 22000 redundancies (or roughly 50% of staff). They are currently operating with 5% capacity compared to last year and only hope to reach 25% by year end and that's largely dependent on the US/Canada border re-opening.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/air-canada-layoffs-1.5572596

MadYaker

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Yeah but nobody is really forcing them to accept vouchers though are they ? Like Ryanair you can opt for the cash it'll just take longer.

I've vouchers for Austrian airlines, Ryanair and wizz air. Total for all around €300. Austrain are giving me an extra €50 on top of the €150 fare I'd paid to use credit. Happy to take the voucher instead of the cash.

I get that everyones personal circumstances are different but most are offering cash just it'll take much longer given the volume of refunds

But it shouldn't take much longer. When Ryanair are taking payment for bookings they can process hundreds of thousands of transactions a day. Yet when it comes to refunds it takes 6 months.

BZ

circular flexing wrote: »

Air Canada has sent a memo to staff indicating that they are looking for 19000 to 22000 redundancies (or roughly 50% of staff). They are currently operating with 5% capacity compared to last year and only hope to reach 25% by year end and that's largely dependent on the US/Canada border re-opening.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/air-canada-layoffs-1.5572596

That is a pretty huge cut on staff numbers and there outlook of 25% by year end isnt too promising either.

Delta have announed the are retiring their 18 strong B777 fleet which has come as as a surprise to many. As a result there is certain routes like Johannesburg that may well not return as a result. The aircraft graveyards such as Mojave and Victorville will be at bursting point with the continued announcements of retirements, parking of certain types by airlines and of course airlines going under.

Topgear on Dave

Would the activations of hangar firefighting systems be considered a covid impact?

https://twitter.com/breakingavnews/status/1261612251171237889

donkey balls

With every sector of aviation taking a hit from flight &CC ground ops catering &refuelers etc, Would there by a drop in ATC personal due to the lack of flights throughout the world ?

Irish Steve

BZ wrote: »

Delta have announed the are retiring their 18 strong B777 fleet which has come as as a surprise to many.

According to a post I have just seen, the reason for the 777 decision is that the A350 that is replacing it has a 21% lower fuel burn. Covid has provided the excuse needed to make massive change a lot quicker, and it will have a significant effect on their bottom line.

Foggy43

donkey balls wrote: »

With every sector of aviation taking a hit from flight &CC ground ops catering &refuelers etc, Would there by a drop in ATC personal due to the lack of flights throughout the world ?

I would think so. At LHR an aircraft would normally have four controllers from start up to airbourne. Now just one. Due to one runway that same controller will do the landing to on stand. There was a TV news report recently on the possible number of job losses in the UK in aviation. The figure is 600,000. This includes everything from food prep, storage and up the chain.

Tenger

Can't give a reliability to this news;

https://www.headforpoints.com/2020/05/15/the-new-british-airways-cabin-crew-pay-offer-revealed/

BA wants all cabin crew combined into a single fleet.
24K pounds salary, with commission on top of. This figure includes cash for food downroute (per diem in US parlance)

smurfjed

BASSA won’t accept that, and it also appears that BA management are taking advantage of the present situation.